Post Embassy Drama, UK VJer 'Life In The USA' Edition.

[swji89 41]

Religion is rampant with the Christian right whimpering about war on Christianity, when they are the most privileged.

A couple of things as a Christian who is moving there... to the buckle of the Bible belt no less!

• I would agree that politics and Christianity should not be as linked to one side of the spectrum as it has been historically. There are plenty of believers in both the Democratic and Republican parties in actuality. Christians can logically take a variety of political views, in all honesty, as we're all human and will all have slightly different policy emphases or ideas about the bets way to solve certain problems (including how to care for this less fortunate - do we merely support financially or do we work to find a way of helping them help themselves back onto their feet etc. etc. - please excuse the crude generalisations!)

• Indeed, there are a lot of middle-class Christians. And they should steward their money wisely, giving to charity and using their time to do so too. It's shameful if someone doesn't. However there are poor Christians too and they are allowed to vote for who they like, quite frankly. The "Christian Right" isn't necessarily about "money", it's about social policies like abortion etc. where the Republican Party have traditionally taken the more acceptable view. That's changing as society changes so i suspect there will be less and less of an attachment between the two words 'Right' and 'Christian' as time goes on. Not that many Christians might want to continue voting for the Republicans - that's for individuals to weigh up and decide for themselves every few years.

• Also, I would hazard a guess that a number who consider themselves to be in the "Christian Right" may only be nominal Christians anyway - i.e. they don't live out their faith at all.

• You mention what you consider to be 'whimpering' but the fact of the matter is that Christian views are being ridiculed more and more. We are allowed to be distressed by this, just as you are allowed to be annoyed by Christians. However, the important thing is the way Christians respond because, the fact is it isn't going to get any 'better' only 'worse' in this area. Christians SHOULD help those less fortunate - not only financially etc. but also by telling them the gospel, because that's what we believe is the ultimate good news that will rescue people from more than just temporary, worldly problems. The American Constitution protects the right for people to freely practice their religion - or not practice any as the case may be. You just have to deal with that, just as I have to deal with there being people who think it's all rubbish. That's democracy, that's a free country. People being criticised, condemned, hassled for their religious views isn't freedom. If you want to be free not to adhere to a faith, then you have to be willing to allow others the freedom to do so.

But, I'm glad you like America despite all your complaints. Hope your citizenship application goes through smoothly and yes, do vote and do have your say.

I'm sure I won't understand everything (I understand the 'right to bear arms' as an argument to a point but I'll never understand why you'd want to have a gun and certainly think that gun laws need to be changed even if it's in the area of being more stringent with licensing of weapons. I'm certainly not planning on buying a gun when I get there!) but I will learn to love the good parts. The fact is, when it's humans running things there will be bad governance, things we disagree with and people we have to learn to tolerate even if they annoy us massively. That's life.

Edited August 27, 2015 by swji89

[2ndMessiah 184]

@ swji89.

I appreciated the thought out reply. Fortunately, I feel that maybe the humor I tried to inject was missed and that this thread was not right one to post it in.

All places have their issues. I come from a very dysfunctional part of the world and could list its faults as well. The point I missed making was that, I feel renewed. And I am keen to take part in this wonderful experiment they call America. More than I ever did back in the 'old country' so to speak.

I would like to reply to your points in a private IM if that is OK so as not to hi-jack this thread.

[-Shana- 152]

The best educational text I've read to help me understand American culture:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/america

[Nich-Nick 3,354]

@ swji89.

I appreciated the thought out reply. Fortunately, I feel that maybe the humor I tried to inject was missed and that this thread was not right one to post it in.

I failed to notice the humor myself.

[Gary & Aubrey 23]

Gary's combo card arrived today! Woohoo!

[-Shana- 152]

Gary's combo card arrived today! Woohoo!

Nice! Congrats!

[2ndMessiah 184]

I failed to notice the humor myself.

Yes. I failed completely... Sorry.

[swji89 41]

Yes. I failed completely... Sorry.

I'm told Americans don't get sarcasm so I'm going to be lost too If you want to PM me that's fine.

[swji89 41]

Gary's combo card arrived today! Woohoo!

Pardon the ignorance - by Combo Card, what do you mean?

[yuna628 9,676]

Soon to be hubby is now here I was preparing for a long wait, but it was literally the fastest I have seen him be processed at our POE in my life. Everyone was very nice to him. So much to get done before the wedding.

[Gary & Aubrey 23]

Pardon the ignorance - by Combo Card, what do you mean?

It's his EAD, but also has his AP on it. He can use it for travel.

[swji89 41]

It's his EAD, but also has his AP on it. He can use it for travel.

Ah okay I thought that might be what you were talking about.

[ChasUno 101]

• You mention what you consider to be 'whimpering' but the fact of the matter is that Christian views are being ridiculed more and more. We are allowed to be distressed by this, just as you are allowed to be annoyed by Christians. However, the important thing is the way Christians respond because, the fact is it isn't going to get any 'better' only 'worse' in this area. Christians SHOULD help those less fortunate - not only financially etc. but also by telling them the gospel, because that's what we believe is the ultimate good news that will rescue people from more than just temporary, worldly problems. The American Constitution protects the right for people to freely practice their religion - or not practice any as the case may be. You just have to deal with that, just as I have to deal with there being people who think it's all rubbish. That's democracy, that's a free country. People being criticised, condemned, hassled for their religious views isn't freedom. If you want to be free not to adhere to a faith, then you have to be willing to allow others the freedom to do so.

Many feel the issue is more that "Christians" and/ or the religious right are trying to force their views onto others, and when people stand up against that then these religious people then claim that Christianity is under attack. Take the recent religious freedom law issue in Indiana (that massively backfired), which in all respects was a veiled law that effectively upheld discrimination. Human rights should trump religious views/ choices/ opinions EVERY time. Same with the same sex marriage issue, the Hobby Lobby issue, the pro-life issues etc. The US Constitution clearly states there should be a separation of church and state, and there is not ONE mention of the Bible in it. What consenting religious people do in private is entirely up to them, when they start demanding that their "religious rights" affect basic human rights of others in society, that's when they over step the mark and problems occur.

Another good example is the county court clerk who is still trying to demand that her religious views should allow her to deny marriage licences to same sex couples.

http://jurist.org/paperchase/2015/08/kentucky-clerk-continues-to-refuse-to-issue-same-sex-marriage-licenses-despite-court-rulings.php

These are similar views that "Christians" used in the 1960's to try and justify segregation and also ban interracial marriage. I'm sure such people are in the minority, but they certainly make a lot of noise and get public attention. Perhaps if more Christians stood up and condemned such bigots, then their religion would get less flack. But the silence from many Christians is in effect justifying such views, which in turn gives all Christians a bad reputation. The Kentucky clerk is doing far more damage to Christianity and Christians than the people asking for equal (the SAME) rights under law.

And from a personal stand point, if the views and beliefs of many American Christians had been enforced and put into law, then I would not be here now married to a US citizen in a same sex marriage. Even now it's law across the country, it's not nice to know that many of a religious group still believe that my partner and I should be denied the very same rights that they have always had to marry the one they love and live a peaceful life together. As you said, "People being criticised, condemned, hassled for their religious views isn't freedom." The same also applies in reverse, so same sex couples can quite easily state "People being criticised, condemned, hassled for their sexuality isn't freedom." It works both ways, so when Christians stop criticising and condemning people for their sexuality, then they will not be creating a reason to be criticised for pushing their views onto others. Live and let live, and let's all just live in peace with each other.

[swji89 41]

I agree with you on some of your points. Church and state should be separated, indeed, while I also would not expect non-Christians to want to live by Biblical values, nor would I expect laws to be based purely on Biblical principles in a secular day and age. However, is someone a bigot for holding a different view on things than someone else? I don't necessarily think so. Nonetheless, the law is the law whether someone agrees with it or not. Therefore, RE the Kentucky case - unless something can be arranged where another clerk can grant licenses as they wish while that particular clerk can be exempt from doing something which is against their beliefs, then perhaps the price that they need to pay for holding to that belief is to leave or lose their job. As I said, I'm not expecting it to get easier to be a Christian in the face of an increasingly hostile world - quite the opposite.

However, is there any exemption for churches in the US with the passing of the same sex marriage bill? Over in the UK, as you probably know, churches can exempt themselves from holding same sex marriage services if they wish, while the Church of England is exempt by law. If a certain church is happy to do same sex marriages they can, but the beliefs of others are protected in that not every church has to. That seems fair, no? That will probably change as time goes on, but it seems like something of a fair compromise to me?

When it comes to 'Christians' using the Bible to justify segregation, there's nothing in the Bible that justifies that. In fact, the whole point of faith in Christ is that it unites people from every 'tribe, tongue and nation' and that there is 'no Greek, nor Jew' - i.e. racial and national identities are irrelevant (as is background full stop, in all honesty), as all are welcomed by Jesus to put their trust and faith in him. If someone uses the Bible to justify racist beliefs, they are plain wrong.

"Live and let live" goes both ways, as you say. If you feel individual Christians are 'hassling' you, then I apologise, as that shouldn't be the case - as Christians are called to be loving, even in the way we stand firm to what we believe. Noone is any different from anyone else when it comes to their status before God - I believe we are all 'sinners' i.e. we have all lived lives displeasing to God in one way or another, so I have no right to 'condemn' anyone else - although it depends what someone means by 'condemn', I suppose!

I hope what I have said doesn't cause any upset. I can't promise it won't offend, but I hope you see I've tried to say it in a gracious spirit. Please accept my apologies if not.

[Nich-Nick 3,354]

My objection to these kinds of debates is that there is no generalized statement that will cover the whole of the U.S.

American are ___________.

Christians are ___________.

Rich people are _________.

Homosexuals are ________.

I was raised Christian in segregated schools, yet I never heard my parents, teachers, or preacher speak against black people. Or gay people for that matter. I was not taught predjudice. I have a number from both groups as good friends. I also know a lot of brilliantly educated scientists and doctors. I have never run across anybody packing a pistol. The news media will cover the most dramatic story they can find.

Painting a picture of any group with one broad brushstroke annoys me. Let's talk about Marmite or something now.