Race policies at universities questioned

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Eugene Scott

The Arizona Republic

National anti-affirmative action activists are investigating Arizona's higher-education admissions policies, but university officials say they aren't concerned.

Race is not used in admissions decisions at the University of Arizona, Arizona State University or Northern Arizona University, officials said.

American Civil Rights Coalition, a California-based organization that is partly responsible for removing race from college-admissions decisions in California and Michigan, is investigating university admissions methods in Arizona and eight other states. The organization plans to announce its findings this month.

Based on those findings, the group will decide whether to introduce a proposition in Arizona asking voters how they feel about the use of race in admissions.

"The research is not complete yet, so we have not made a final decision," said Diane Schachterle, the coalition's spokesperson.

The group wants to ban all public affirmative-action programs that are based on race and gender.

"We were considering bringing an initiative to end racial preferences to the state," Schachterle said. "While that does include education, it covers hiring and public contracting, too."

The group is looking at Arizona because residents asked it to do so, Schachterle said.

"It was clear that the issue of ending racial preferences is very strong and popular with the people, even though the elites are not on board," she said. "So it was clear to us that we need to take it to a few more states to keep the movement going."

University officials said the coalition is free to research Arizona higher education, but will not find what it's looking for.

"Arizona's approach to admissions is not based on racial quotas, as it was in Michigan, Texas and California. Therefore, it is not possible to compare Arizona to those states when it comes to affirmative action," said Leah Hardesty, ASU spokesperson. "A student's ethnic background has never been used as a factor in determining admittance to ASU."

Even though diversity is imperative to ASU, students are admitted only if they meet the academic qualifications, officials said.

"Diversity among students, faculty and staff is a priority at Arizona State University. ASU's goal is to serve the educational needs of the state of Arizona, and Arizona's population is diverse," Hardesty said.

UA officials emphasize diversity by recruiting at high schools with student populations that are underrepresented at the university, said Paul Kohn, UA assistant vice president for admissions and financial aid.

"I'm not familiar with what the affirmative-action repeal would do with those types of initiatives," Kohn said. "I don't know if this type of legislation reform undermines this kind of work."

He said that Arizona hasn't historically had the best reputation for being open to diversity and that an attempt to make higher education less diverse could backfire.

"I don't fear that our policy will have to change, but I do fear how this might influence the nation's perception of Arizona by such an effort," he said.

NAU officials also think that their admissions policies wouldn't be affected.

"I'm 99 percent sure that, that is the case, that nothing will change, because we do not consider race a factor in admissions," said Tom Bauer, NAU's assistant director of public affairs.

Edited February 19, 2007 by Steven_and_Jinky

[GaryC 7]

Affirmitive action is race discrimination by another name. Everything should be race and gender neuteral. That is the only way to be fair to everyone.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Affirmitive action is race discrimination by another name. Everything should be race and gender neuteral. That is the only way to be fair to everyone.

People should be judged based on their merits; not on the color of their skin, nationality or gender.

[moelarrycheese 0]

University admissions should be by merit only.

[Fandango 1,439]

If one shouldn't judge a person by his/her race, then race should not be a factor in ANY decision...

[DeadPoolX 9]

If one shouldn't judge a person by his/her race, then race should not be a factor in ANY decision...

Exactly. It shouldn't be a factor in any decision. I mean, really...what difference does it if someone is from Race A or Race B? The difference is entirely a psychological one. People are people. There are good and bad people of all races, so it really doesn't make a lot of sense to me to judge another based on race.

[Fandango 1,439]

If one shouldn't judge a person by his/her race, then race should not be a factor in ANY decision...

Exactly. It shouldn't be a factor in any decision. I mean, really...what difference does it if someone is from Race A or Race B? The difference is entirely a psychological one. People are people. There are good and bad people of all races, so it really doesn't make a lot of sense to me to judge another based on race.

'Hey don't be a racist and judge me....unless it somehow benefits my situation then it's ok'

[Caladan 19]

I'm suspicious of "merit" arguments in education, if only because it's hard to judge what's the student effort and merit and what is just being middle-class. If you go to a poor high school, and you manage, though the teachers suck and there's drugs, to pull a B average and 1250 on the SAT, are you more or less meritorious than the kid, who in our hypothetical situation, had straight As because whenever her grades dropped her parents paid for an expensive private tutor and S.A.T. prep so she could get a 1400?

Is the black kid more or less meritorious because when his grandfather served in the military, he was excluded from the G.I. Bill because he was black, and mine got a free college education and the resulting ticket to the middle class? It was practically affirmative action for white folks.

Most people who are against affirmative action aren't against legacy admits and athletic admits, even though those are usually worth about 100 points on the SAT, too. Merit? Because your parents went to Harvard? Mm, okay. Funny definition of merit.

I'm not sure that race is a good proxy for affirmative action, but with such a wide range in the quality of high schools, a straight merit measure is inadequate. A socioeconomic tag might work better than a race tag, but allowing legacies & athletic admissions and clucking about "merit" is just nuts.

Edited February 19, 2007 by Caladan

[one...two...tree 2,762]

For one, this organization spokesperson says that residents of Arizona asked them to come and check on things? *cough* BS. If this organization's sole purpose is fight Affirmative Action, why don't they challenge it's constitutionality by taking it to the courts?

Secondly, with regard to diversity - whether it's in colleges and universities or in the workplace, should be a factor. Inequalities still persist and exist within this country against both women and minorities. Wouldn't it be more productive for this group (American Civil Rights Coalition) to fight such inequalities where they exist instead? What a backwards way of thinking.

[Caladan 19]

Something that will really upset their apple cart: if schools move to a straight "merit" model, the number of white kids in the universities is going to plummet. Historically, kids of Asian descent are outperforming white kids at a ridiculous rate, yet if you look at the top universities, they're still a minority. Go to a straight meritocracy, and while there will be some dropoff in black student admits, the real drop comes out of the white middle class as the Asian kids get in more.

Somehow I suspect that's not what the "reverse racism" handwringers want. Can we just be honest and say we're not talking about "merit", but maintaing the status quo?

[Fandango 1,439]

I'm suspicious of "merit" arguments in education, if only because it's hard to judge what's the student effort and merit and what is just being middle-class. If you go to a poor high school, and you manage, though the teachers suck and there's drugs, to pull a B average and 1250 on the SAT, are you more or less meritorious than the kid, who in our hypothetical situation, had straight As because whenever her grades dropped her parents paid for an expensive private tutor and S.A.T. prep so she could get a 1400?

Is the black kid more or less meritorious because when his grandfather served in the military, he was excluded from the G.I. Bill because he was black, and mine got a free college education and the resulting ticket to the middle class? It was practically affirmative action for white folks.

Most people who are against affirmative action aren't against legacy admits and athletic admits, even though those are usually worth about 100 points on the SAT, too. Merit? Because your parents went to Harvard? Mm, okay. Funny definition of merit.

I'm not sure that race is a good proxy for affirmative action, but with such a wide range in the quality of high schools, a straight merit measure is inadequate. A socioeconomic tag might work better than a race tag, but allowing legacies & athletic admissions and clucking about "merit" is just nuts.

I think basically what you're saying is that there's a difference in economic classes...not nesseasarily racail difference. Because the assumption that only blacks are poor is kinda jacked up

[Caladan 19]

That would be why I said I don't think race is necessarily a good proxy. No winking necessary.

It depends on what we think affirmative action is meant to do. Correct wrongs in the past? Then race is a decent proxy because of the G.I. Bill and civil rights stuff, which takes more than a generation to clear up. Keep a balanced and interesting incoming freshman class with lots of diversity? Then I think race should be weighted less heavily in favor of considering socioeconomic factors.

[Fandango 1,439]

That would be why I said I don't think race is necessarily a good proxy. No winking necessary.

It depends on what we think affirmative action is meant to do. Correct wrongs in the past? Then race is a decent proxy because of the G.I. Bill and civil rights stuff, which takes more than a generation to clear up. Keep a balanced and interesting incoming freshman class with lots of diversity? Then I think race should be weighted less heavily in favor of considering socioeconomic factors.

Ahhh fair enough I didn't see that bit

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Something that will really upset their apple cart: if schools move to a straight "merit" model, the number of white kids in the universities is going to plummet. Historically, kids of Asian descent are outperforming white kids at a ridiculous rate, yet if you look at the top universities, they're still a minority. Go to a straight meritocracy, and while there will be some dropoff in black student admits, the real drop comes out of the white middle class as the Asian kids get in more.

Somehow I suspect that's not what the "reverse racism" handwringers want. Can we just be honest and say we're not talking about "merit", but maintaing the status quo?

Excellent point.

The Supreme Court ruled in favor of Affirmative Action provided that it doesn't use quotas with regard to race. However, diversity can be considering factor with regard to university and college admissions.

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/michigan/

Kind of makes it silly for this organization to try and circumvent the Supreme Court's ruling.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I'm suspicious of "merit" arguments in education, if only because it's hard to judge what's the student effort and merit and what is just being middle-class. If you go to a poor high school, and you manage, though the teachers suck and there's drugs, to pull a B average and 1250 on the SAT, are you more or less meritorious than the kid, who in our hypothetical situation, had straight As because whenever her grades dropped her parents paid for an expensive private tutor and S.A.T. prep so she could get a 1400?

Is the black kid more or less meritorious because when his grandfather served in the military, he was excluded from the G.I. Bill because he was black, and mine got a free college education and the resulting ticket to the middle class? It was practically affirmative action for white folks.

Most people who are against affirmative action aren't against legacy admits and athletic admits, even though those are usually worth about 100 points on the SAT, too. Merit? Because your parents went to Harvard? Mm, okay. Funny definition of merit.

I'm not sure that race is a good proxy for affirmative action, but with such a wide range in the quality of high schools, a straight merit measure is inadequate. A socioeconomic tag might work better than a race tag, but allowing legacies & athletic admissions and clucking about "merit" is just nuts.

I think basically what you're saying is that there's a difference in economic classes...not nesseasarily racail difference. Because the assumption that only blacks are poor is kinda jacked up

I thought what was said was that this "merit" talk is quite often the talk of hypocrites as it seems rather selectively applied only where convenient and that the "merit" may be measured somewhat inappropriately.