Inmates, California officials warn prisons crowded

[Fandango 1,439]

So answer the question that you just avoided

You don't have to 'embrace' a murderer and sing kumbaya, but you treat them as human beings even if they act like animals. I know it's a radical concept but I didn't invent it.

Someone God forbid, killed a loved one of mine, and I'm not going to be worried that they're sleeping in a triple bunk.

radical concept, I know

Nice sleight of hand, but that wasn't the argument I was responding to.

no one said that they were all convicted of heinous crimes. and my attitude is piss on them. live with it.

~ Charles

IMO they deserve to be raped daily with a splintery broom handle.

~ LisaD

Do you stand by your words, Lisa?

If I had a child who was raped? ABSOFUCKINLUTELY.

[Fandango 1,439]

actually, even now without being a mother, and thank God I don't have any loved ones who were a victim of crime...I stand by my words 100%

they deserve everything they get in prison.

[Peikko 1,575]

rapists and murderers belong in jail. i don't see any point in releasing them as i seriously doubt this "rehabilitation" effort some speak of actually working.

act like an animal, get treated like one. want to be a part of society, then you'll be treated like one then.

Opinion or fact?

I doubt prison personel would waste their time complaining about the lack of rehabilitation facilities if they didn't know it worked, but then maybe they just like whining too?

The animal analogy really doesn't work for me. Animals aren't humans and vice versa. I don't agree with battery farming either for what that's worth.

I wasn't trying to be 'magnanimous', it was just an attempt, somewhat failed I see, to establish that I don't take this personally. Holding certain views doesn't make someone a good or bad person. I am trying to understand what makes someone embrace this hatred, particularly when it serves no obvious purpose. Trying to find out reasons why certain members of society act in unacceptable ways seems like a productive thing to do, particularly if this could lead to some way of preventing this kind of behaviour. Wishing all kinds of vile tortures on them doesn't really achieve anything more than what? Satisfaction of a job well done? It doesn't undo the crime nor prevent another one.

All this aside, as I said, the problems highlighted are not restricted to particular types of criminals and aren't just a question of prisoners griping but are indicative of serious problems within the prison service. This aspect doesn't seem to concern those who think it's ok for these conditions to continue. Or perhaps I should say, those who believe it's some kind of just deserts scenario and no more than they deserve.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Purple_Hibiscus

[one...two...tree 2,762]

actually, even now without being a mother, and thank God I don't have any loved ones who were a victim of crime...I stand by my words 100%

I thought we progressed from that archaic viewpoint. Somewhere along the way, the wisdom of the Golden Rule has been lost.

[DeadPoolX 9]

I don't think prisoners need to be brutalized or otherwise tortured. There's no point to it. However, prisoners do not need all the amenities they get today either: Cable television is a good example. It's not linked to their well-being (it's not healthcare nor is it food), it's merely entertainment, and something quite a few sane, law-abiding citizens can't afford. So why should criminals get it, paid for with our tax dollars?

I think that's the main point of the thread, and where both sides are not seeing the other's POV.

Edited February 17, 2007 by DeadPoolX

[Peikko 1,575]

If that was were the disagreement lay, you would get no argument from me. I am certainly not an advocate of treating serious criminals as privelaged members of society...having said that, I am not an expert in how prisons are run, but I did have a feeling that certain amenities were provided to help the prison officers with the running of the prisons. I could of course be wrong about this, it's something I think I read/heard somewhere.

Sadly though, were this thread started was with the violins being played because of the very real overcrowding problems that many prisoners are facing in many Californian prisons because some of the prisoners interviewed were convicted of very nasty crimes and there was an attitide of, 'hell rub it up them, they committed the crime, they do the time, and if that means getting raped or beaten by other prisoners, then so be it'.

While it may make a sort of neat picture of retribution, prisoners convicted of sex crimes against children get raped by other criminals (the nature of their crimes not being specified). But this doesn't exactly present a very rational picture. What kind of example is it to say that rape is ok, so long as those being raped are poedophiles? Not to mention the very real problems it presents in terms of discipline within the prison.

What I also find disconcerting is that the concern over how 'good prisoners have it' in prison seems to override any concerns the people working within the prison system have with their assertion that there is a real danger of these conditions causing a severe malfunction of the whole system.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Purple_Hibiscus

[eric&gen 0]

Not all that bad they get free cable tv, free meals free medical all paid out of our taxes lol.

Not to mention all the sex they want for free

Getting butt raped every night by a large inmate named big bubba is no way to go out like that lol.

[Fandango 1,439]

actually, even now without being a mother, and thank God I don't have any loved ones who were a victim of crime...I stand by my words 100%

I thought we progressed from that archaic viewpoint. Somewhere along the way, the wisdom of the Golden Rule has been lost.

would that be for the child molester as well?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

actually, even now without being a mother, and thank God I don't have any loved ones who were a victim of crime...I stand by my words 100%

I thought we progressed from that archaic viewpoint. Somewhere along the way, the wisdom of the Golden Rule has been lost.

would that be for the child molester as well?

I was once married to a survivor of incest. It's one thing to wish upon them harm (being raped in prison with a broomstick), but in reality child molesters are often family members. Don't get me wrong - I wanted to kill the relative who abused my ex-wife as a young child, but it's a good thing that most of us don't just act on our emotions. The person never served a day in jail for what they did, but died a sad and pathetic person. It makes it even more complicated when other family members protect that person in one way or another. I hope you never have to deal with something like that, but if you do, you'll realize that it's not so easy and so simple to just act on emotions. And you also have to come to terms with it - especially if the abuser is someone that is loved by so many.

[Fandango 1,439]

actually, even now without being a mother, and thank God I don't have any loved ones who were a victim of crime...I stand by my words 100%

I thought we progressed from that archaic viewpoint. Somewhere along the way, the wisdom of the Golden Rule has been lost.

would that be for the child molester as well?

I was once married to a survivor of incest. It's one thing to wish upon them harm (being raped in prison with a broomstick), but in reality child molesters are often family members. Don't get me wrong - I wanted to kill the relative who abused my ex-wife as a young child, but it's a good thing that most of us don't just act on our emotions. The person never served a day in jail for what they did, but died a sad and pathetic person. It makes it even more complicated when other family members protect that person in one way or another. I hope you never have to deal with something like that, but if you do, you'll realize that it's not so easy and so simple to just act on emotions. And you also have to come to terms with it - especially if the abuser is someone that is loved by so many.

1 - i'm sorry for your ex-wife, it must have been a nightmare for her.

2 - I never said *I* would do anything, but I have no pity for the treatment they get in jail.

3 - this is really about a triple bunk being 'inhumane' to a child molester.

4 - What about the golden rule you brought up...does it, in your opinion, hold true for the pedophile as well?

5 - you sure you comfortable with this type of personal info on the web, or maybe pm ewok to remove it?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

actually, even now without being a mother, and thank God I don't have any loved ones who were a victim of crime...I stand by my words 100%

I thought we progressed from that archaic viewpoint. Somewhere along the way, the wisdom of the Golden Rule has been lost.

would that be for the child molester as well?

I was once married to a survivor of incest. It's one thing to wish upon them harm (being raped in prison with a broomstick), but in reality child molesters are often family members. Don't get me wrong - I wanted to kill the relative who abused my ex-wife as a young child, but it's a good thing that most of us don't just act on our emotions. The person never served a day in jail for what they did, but died a sad and pathetic person. It makes it even more complicated when other family members protect that person in one way or another. I hope you never have to deal with something like that, but if you do, you'll realize that it's not so easy and so simple to just act on emotions. And you also have to come to terms with it - especially if the abuser is someone that is loved by so many.

1 - i'm sorry for your ex-wife, it must have been a nightmare for her.

2 - I never said *I* would do anything, but I have no pity for the treatment they get in jail.

3 - this is really about a triple bunk being 'inhumane' to a child molester.

4 - What about the golden rule you brought up...does it, in your opinion, hold true for the pedophile as well?

5 - you sure you comfortable with this type of personal info on the web, or maybe pm ewok to remove it?

5 - yes because for one, part of the problem was that the family, like most families who experience it are in denial and keep it a secret for so many years, which adds insult to the child who has grown into adulthood.

2 - I don't know if it's pity I'd feel, my point is that my emotions shouldn't make any difference when it comes to treating another human being as a human and nothing less.

3 - Triple bunk beds are non-issue for me, but allowing a prisoner to be raped with a broomstick and do nothing about it - that's barbaric (sp).

4 - The Golden Rule has no special clauses - a pedophile is still a human being. As difficult as it is to separate the sin from the sinner, their depravity doesn't change that they are still human.

1 - Thanks. I really hoped that she would have fully recovered from what happened but she hasn't and I don't think she ever will. Some people are more resiliant than others and she's not one of those people.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Fandango 1,439]

actually, even now without being a mother, and thank God I don't have any loved ones who were a victim of crime...I stand by my words 100%

I thought we progressed from that archaic viewpoint. Somewhere along the way, the wisdom of the Golden Rule has been lost.

would that be for the child molester as well?

I was once married to a survivor of incest. It's one thing to wish upon them harm (being raped in prison with a broomstick), but in reality child molesters are often family members. Don't get me wrong - I wanted to kill the relative who abused my ex-wife as a young child, but it's a good thing that most of us don't just act on our emotions. The person never served a day in jail for what they did, but died a sad and pathetic person. It makes it even more complicated when other family members protect that person in one way or another. I hope you never have to deal with something like that, but if you do, you'll realize that it's not so easy and so simple to just act on emotions. And you also have to come to terms with it - especially if the abuser is someone that is loved by so many.

1 - i'm sorry for your ex-wife, it must have been a nightmare for her.

2 - I never said *I* would do anything, but I have no pity for the treatment they get in jail.

3 - this is really about a triple bunk being 'inhumane' to a child molester.

4 - What about the golden rule you brought up...does it, in your opinion, hold true for the pedophile as well?

5 - you sure you comfortable with this type of personal info on the web, or maybe pm ewok to remove it?

5 - yes because for one, part of the problem was that the family, like most families who experience it are in denial and keep it a secret for so many years, which adds insult to the child who has grown into adulthood.

2 - I don't know if it's pity I'd feel, my point is that my emotions shouldn't make any difference when it comes to treating another human being as a human and nothing less.

3 - Triple bunk beds are non-issue for me, but allowing a prisoner to be raped with a broomstick and do nothing about it - that's barbaric (sp).

4 - The Golden Rule has no special clauses - a pedophile is still a human being. As difficult as it is to separate the sin from the sinner, their depravity doesn't change that they are still human.

1 - Thanks. I really hoped that she would have fully recovered from what happened but she hasn't and I don't think she ever will. Some people are more resiliant than others and she's not one of those people.

5 - is it your choice to make simply for fodder on a messageboard? Your website link gives your full name, so theoretically, if one were so inclined, one could find out your ex-wife's name....is it your choice to out the situation that you were told in utter confidence? eh, nevermind

2 - do you realize the irony in your statement?

3 - the quote from the pedophile was that living conditions in the prison were 'cruel and barbaric'....I am infuriated that a POS pedo can sit here and cry and call it 'barbaric' considering the devastation that those monsters leave in their wake. I believe in 'what comes around goes around' and if mr pedo finds himself in a situation with him and a broom handle - scenario brought up by me for exaggeration purposes, then so be it.

4 - You missed my point. If the 'Golden rule' applies to everyone, what is the pedo saying about the way HE wants to be treated??? I also believe in 'when a person shows you what they are, believe him'

1 - maybe her resilliance is just fine as it has her getting out of bed in the morning. What she went throught must have been the worst thing ever...it sickens my stomach to think of all the pain and trauma those b@stards leave behind. All the more reason why I think they're scum.

Edited February 17, 2007 by LisaD

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

"We have 172,000 prisoners in facilities designed to hold about 100,000"

This would seem to be the real problem here...

And that the headline of the article suggests that its "California Officials" who are concerned about it.

Edited February 17, 2007 by erekose

[one...two...tree 2,762]

You missed my point. If the 'Golden rule' applies to everyone, what is the pedo saying about the way HE wants to be treated??? I also believe in 'when a person shows you what they are, believe him'

Maybe this can explain better than I can, the wisdom of the Golden Rule.

The Golden Rule is considered to be the most prevalent and universal moral principle in history. To reflect on the Golden Rule is to reflect from the perspective of a universal wisdom. In this section, we examine the many dimensions of the Golden Rule, also known as the "Ethic of Reciprocity".

1. The Golden Rule can be stated either positively or negatively: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," or "Do not do to another what you would not want done to you." It is another form of the commandment, "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

2. The basis for the rule is our need for harmony and symmetry, which leads us to a desire for justice, and a sense that all are equally entitled to dignity and respect. For there is no symmetry in having one rule for ourselves and another for others.

3. The rule requires not what someone else would want you to do, which would enslave you to another's whim, but what you yourself would want done to you if you and another switched places. Thus if you found a wallet full of cash on the street, the rule requires you to imagine yourself the owner of the wallet and to act as you would want someone who found your wallet to act.

4. The rule does not require that you necessarily please others, since there are times when you, if put in someone else's place, would prefer a painful truth to a pleasant lie. For example, if you did not return someone's love, and you put yourself in the other's place, you would prefer to know the truth as soon as possible, even if it wasn't pleasant, to being led on by someone reluctant to disappoint you.

5. Since you are applying your own experience and standards to each circumstance, albeit from another's point of view, what the rule will require of you will always be in your judgment reasonable and fair.Often it may not be in your immediate self-interest, but following the rule is always in your ultimate interest.

6. The Golden Rule is one means by which the power of self-love is turned outward, becoming the force that makes society cohere. And society is the means by which we all survive. The more universally the rule is applied, the more peaceful and stable society will be.

7. There is in everyone, to a greater or lesser degree, a desire to please others, since when we are children we are entirely dependent on parental love. This desire to please, and the often anxious pleasure that pleasing brings, should not be confused with the reward for following the Golden Rule, which is entirely the result of pleasing ourselves. For there is no firm foundation for happiness in dependence on the pleasure of others. We do justice to others not because we want to please them but because we want to live harmoniously, insofar as that is possible.

8. There is a romantic notion that society is evil, and that the individual, once freed from society, is naturally good. This belief led to an overthrow of wisdom and its replacement with philosophies of will, in which moderation and consideration for others were socially implanted restraints that kept an individual from living authentically. Society is undoubtedly a tool of oppression, but the revolutions that destroyed the old societies often set up new ones that were even more oppressive. This is because we are social animals, and the individual has no possibility of either identity or survival outside of society. Thus each individual ought to strive to create a peaceful, stable, orderly, and just society, since within such a society individual happiness is most easily attained.

9. Taken together, the Golden Mean and the Golden Rule reveal the good both for ourselves and in our relations with others. To know the good in general, therefore, is not difficult, though to know it in any given circumstance, and actually to do it, remains very difficult.

http://www.poemsforfree.com/wgrule.html

Edited February 17, 2007 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Caladan 19]

There were a series of articles running around on prison rape lately. I'll dig them up later, but it's not just pedophiles getting raped. Anywhere from 10%-20%, depending on the prison, and mostly likely it's not the hardened criminal, but the poncy boy doing 18 months for shoplifting or drunk driving. The tough criminals survive; the people who screwed up but were otherwise good people get preyed on.

Brutal rapes of course lead to fissures and tears, and a reasonable risk of contracting HIV since it's reasonably common in prison populations. I don't think AIDS should be a punishment for drunk driving, and I don't think ####### rape is part of the penal code.

I think the question you need to ask is not whether you'd want the rapist of your child to be punished, but whether you'd want your poncy boy raped if he went to jail for a non-violent offense because his roommate had some pot in the car and well, you didn't have the money for a good lawyer, and funny, after a certain amount possession is a felony, and oh dear, they were on a block near a school.... your kid didn't deal but it was his car and the prosecutor seemed nice, so he pled down to a few months....

Of course, you might get lucky. Poncy boy could join a gang for protection, adapt, and be prone to recidivism when he gets out.