Did you know that SO from the Middle East

[effortless 0]

it goes well beyond el al. two pakistani men were expelled from a flight headed to manchester last year for no crime other than speaking urdu on the plane while awaiting takeoff. a doctor who also was already seated on a plane to denver recently was expelled for reciting evening prayers because it apparently made his seatmate "nervous". nevermind that these men had already been through the security checkpoints-hysteria prevailed. where it gets dumb, pointless and racist is when you actually analyse the subject-do these policies make anyone safer? i couldn't give a toss one way or another whether anyone is offended or not-i reserve criticism for when i think it's warranted-ethnicity, religion, nationality all mean next to nothing to me. if it actually worked, or had some basis, then by all means use it. but would it have made any sense for americans to extensively ethnically profile all italian americans if they wanted to put a dent in organised crime? would street crimes really go down if all black americans were racially profiled? absolutely not. exactly what is it about airplanes that makes it so different? can anyone explain? given that muslims come from all ethnicities, nationalities, any and all possible colours, i fail to see how you'd even begin to try to tackle just the preliminary step of id'ing them as muslim in the first place. i realise there's various media crackpots and such out there advocating they be forced to wear some kind of arm band or such to id them (1930-40s germany flashback). is that how you'd propose it be done then? evil as terrorists may be, do you honestly think they are inherently stupid though? knowing that racial/ethnic profiling will be occurring, don't you think they'd anticipate that well in advance, and totally subvert it by finding a john walker lindh or adam gadahn type to take care of that shite?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

There cannot be a discussion because you have dismissed anyone who is non Arab or not born Muslim as having inferior and experience lacking opinions, of being incapable of real understanding. However, I think it is presumptous for you to think that your voice is anything more just one individual's opinion or that it is somehow representative of a broader Arab/Muslim experience. I know more than one Arab Muslim who has read this board and come to the conclusion that they cannot relate to your views at all, and a few have gone as far to question if you are who you say you are. My point being, no one is a voice for a race/religion/etc. and even people of the same race/religion can have very different life experiences and perspectives.

That's not what I've done, but that is the way you are taking it. I have said that it would be refreshing to have a different point of view other than the western non-Arab one, and if that comment is what you are objecting too, well, it still needed to be said.

I know I am only one voice, but I also think it is presumptuous for a western white woman to think she is representative of the Arab voice. I know lots of Arab Muslims who read this board and think the same thing. I know that there are rumors that good Muslim women like you spread, but I'm not interested in mindless gossip. My point is, there aren't many Arabs on this board, and for you to imply that the lack of them constitutes a vaccuum that you and the other married in can fill is awfully presumptuous as well.

Aqoul, do you see Muslims and Arabs as victims?

it goes well beyond el al. two pakistani men were expelled from a flight headed to manchester last year for no crime other than speaking urdu on the plane while awaiting takeoff. a doctor who also was already seated on a plane to denver recently was expelled for reciting evening prayers because it apparently made his seatmate "nervous". nevermind that these men had already been through the security checkpoints-hysteria prevailed. where it gets dumb, pointless and racist is when you actually analyse the subject-do these policies make anyone safer? i couldn't give a toss one way or another whether anyone is offended or not-i reserve criticism for when i think it's warranted-ethnicity, religion, nationality all mean next to nothing to me. if it actually worked, or had some basis, then by all means use it. but would it have made any sense for americans to extensively ethnically profile all italian americans if they wanted to put a dent in organised crime? would street crimes really go down if all black americans were racially profiled? absolutely not. exactly what is it about airplanes that makes it so different? can anyone explain? given that muslims come from all ethnicities, nationalities, any and all possible colours, i fail to see how you'd even begin to try to tackle just the preliminary step of id'ing them as muslim in the first place. i realise there's various media crackpots and such out there advocating they be forced to wear some kind of arm band or such to id them (1930-40s germany flashback). is that how you'd propose it be done then? evil as terrorists may be, do you honestly think they are inherently stupid though? knowing that racial/ethnic profiling will be occurring, don't you think they'd anticipate that well in advance, and totally subvert it by finding a john walker lindh or adam gadahn type to take care of that shite?

Edited February 15, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[effortless 0]

no, i don't, and i don't see where anything i've said even remotely hints to any such feeling or opinion.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

That's why I asked. Thank you. I am asking questions because I don't presume to know everything.

[Bosco 1]

There cannot be a discussion because you have dismissed anyone who is non Arab or not born Muslim as having inferior and experience lacking opinions, of being incapable of real understanding. However, I think it is presumptous for you to think that your voice is anything more just one individual's opinion or that it is somehow representative of a broader Arab/Muslim experience. I know more than one Arab Muslim who has read this board and come to the conclusion that they cannot relate to your views at all, and a few have gone as far to question if you are who you say you are. My point being, no one is a voice for a race/religion/etc. and even people of the same race/religion can have very different life experiences and perspectives.

That's not what I've done, but that is the way you are taking it. I have said that it would be refreshing to have a different point of view other than the western non-Arab one, and if that comment is what you are objecting too, well, it still needed to be said.

I know I am only one voice, but I also think it is presumptuous for a western white woman to think she is representative of the Arab voice. I know lots of Arab Muslims who read this board and think the same thing. I know that there are rumors that good Muslim women like you spread, but I'm not interested in mindless gossip. My point is, there aren't many Arabs on this board, and for you to imply that the lack of them constitutes a vaccuum that you and the other married in can fill is awfully presumptuous as well.

What white western woman has proclaimed to be the voice of Arab people?

ETA: I think when women here post an opinion, it is just that, their opinion. I don't think anyone has EVER claimed or implied they were attempting to speak for Arabs or Muslims.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Bosco

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What white western woman has proclaimed to be the voice of Arab people?

And that is the way it should be.

So, the next time the issue of Israel is raised, there should be SEVERAL voices constituting a diversity of opinions on the subject of Arab/Israeli relations without pulling out the "poor oppressed Arabs" piling on card, so that flaming is kept to a minimum and we can learn from each other.

I look forward to it.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[peezey 0]

What white western woman has proclaimed to be the voice of Arab people?

And that is the way it should be.

So, the next time the issue of Israel is raised, there should be SEVERAL voices constituting a diversity of opinions on the subject of Arab/Israeli relations without pulling out the "poor oppressed Arabs" piling on card, so that flaming is kept to a minimum and we can learn from each other.

I look forward to it.

And what, exactly, does the lack of diverse opinions have to do with white non-arab women on this board? You are dismissing us because of something we cannot control? If you want more diversity, find it, but you know the make up of this forum and it's mindless to be so judgemental about what we have to say just because it's not a good enough sampling for you.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Please go back and read the thread and where it started diverting into a flame war. I spoke up to try to bring some awareness to how this often happens when one point of view gets piled on and any other is dismissed. It is an observable pattern.

My original question is how do you come to your opinions? Thru first hand experience, anecdotes or the experiences of others. The demographics here do not preclude depth. Pardon me, but I do have a desire for more than the "poor oppressed Arabs" approach to political discourse.

[Bosco 1]

What white western woman has proclaimed to be the voice of Arab people?

And that is the way it should be.

So, the next time the issue of Israel is raised, there should be SEVERAL voices constituting a diversity of opinions on the subject of Arab/Israeli relations without pulling out the "poor oppressed Arabs" piling on card, so that flaming is kept to a minimum and we can learn from each other.

I look forward to it.

What if their own researched, thought out opinion is that Israel is an oppressor? And so what if multiple people hold the same view? It doesn't mean they are taking on what they feel is the Arab or Muslim opinion or that their opinions are less valid. If a view has been expressed, others should not express agreement lest it be "piling on"?

I also don't think that a person feeling that Palestinians are oppressed by Israel means thinking all Arabs are oppressed or "poor" Arabs. It is *my* opinion that certain Arab countries have done their share of letting down the Palestinians.

[Jenn! 918]

Although I am neither Arab nor Muslim, I *have* experienced racism first hand. Profiling isn't limited to Arab Muslims. I think the issue extends beyond a single group. People of all colors and religions have experiences and ideas to share that relate to the subject at hand.

[doodlebug 3]

So aside from profiling at the airport, what is the solution?

[~Jackie~ 30]

Bosco's spinning thing is making me dizzy.

Jackie

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Although I am neither Arab nor Muslim, I *have* experienced racism first hand. Profiling isn't limited to Arab Muslims. I think the issue extends beyond a single group. People of all colors and religions have experiences and ideas to share that relate to the subject at hand.

No doubt, that's true, and I don't deny it. Would anyone admit to be prejudiced against Jews when it comes to the Arab/Israeli conflict and that's why we can't discuss it without flaming anyone who says something not pc toward Arabs and Muslims?

[effortless 0]

Please go back and read the thread and where it started diverting into a flame war. I spoke up to try to bring some awareness to how this often happens when one point of view gets piled on and any other is dismissed. It is an observable pattern.

My original question is how do you come to your opinions? Thru first hand experience, anecdotes or the experiences of others. The demographics here do not preclude depth. Pardon me, but I do have a desire for more than the "poor oppressed Arabs" approach to political discourse.

i dont know how i could make it any more obvious that that shite wasnt what i was on about at all. my premise is based on no such thing, and never was. so can you address the points i made or are you going to just continue on in this decidedly boring tangent?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I wasn't addressing you with that comment, so please continue to be bored.