Did you know that SO from the Middle East

[Ban Hammer 13,283]

Your arrogance is apalling. NO ONE is out there wanting to hurt you.

isn't it arrogant to assume that too?

[peezey 0]

I'm not real comfortable with the idea that all Arabs and Muslims are victims either, being "Arab looking" and Muslim myself. It's not the way I want to gain sympathy.

Who said they are victims? I believe we've said only that there should be equal treatment, not intimidation or humilation used against only a few.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

nobody said they were

I'm not real comfortable with the idea that all Arabs and Muslims are victims either, being "Arab looking" and Muslim myself. It's not the way I want to gain sympathy.

Oh, yes they did. It is the entire premise of Aquol's argument that some are agreeing with.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

israel is not an innocent poor victim. it is a country. and it has rights to make decisions based n security like any other country.

this is not some new war, and racism is in NO WAY limted to this area of the world. and it sucks that it happens. but it happens to a wide variety of races.

and in respone to green-eyed girl... ive flown el al. no i dont look arabic, im quite greek, but my fiance does. and yes hes israeli, but he often gets pulled aside anyways. doesnt bother him at all. he was in the army, he knows what they are looking for.

when your country is despised by a majority of people around it... of course youre going to look harder at them. esp with the history youve had with airline safety

You made it clear that you have flown el al. I'm asking those who have not made it clear that they have.

[Bosco 1]

nobody said they were

I'm not real comfortable with the idea that all Arabs and Muslims are victims either, being "Arab looking" and Muslim myself. It's not the way I want to gain sympathy.

Oh, yes they did. It is the entire premise of Aquol's argument that some are agreeing with.

I didn't take read the argument the same way, and I venture to say, the others agreeing did not as well.

[Bosco 1]

I think people have admitted that aquol is/was rude. I would bet that aquol might admit that him/herself. I believe that he/she has a valid point despite the rudeness. And of course, yes, I think it is valid because I agree with it.

If you don't agree, then of course you'd view it as just rude and not at all valid.

I haven't characterized it as valid nor invalid. I'm just trying to determine the nuances of group dynamics about when rudeness invalidates a point and when it doesn't, just for my own future reference and so I can use it when the tables turn.

I'm also curious about how many here have flown Israel's airline, gone to Israel or "looked Arab" while doing so. Just trying to determine who has first hand experience to buttress their agreement.

I think Aqoul was stating the security policy is three-tiered and not "grills everyone" as was claimed initially. What is the argument that is supposed to be buttressed?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

nobody said they were

I'm not real comfortable with the idea that all Arabs and Muslims are victims either, being "Arab looking" and Muslim myself. It's not the way I want to gain sympathy.

Oh, yes they did. It is the entire premise of Aquol's argument that some are agreeing with.

I didn't take read the argument the same way, and I venture to say, the others agreeing did not as well.

Ok, well here's the thing. You non-Arab women love to validate your arguments by using your Arab Muslim SOs and what they might think, since they aren't here. I'm here and I have a thought as an Arab Muslim and I think that there is a lot of pc knee jerk reaction around Israel and Arab Muslims. You tend to agree with anything that supports the notion of racism, bigotry and exclusion, making us look like victims. I don't see much depth to the approach.

I also asked how many of you have first hand experience with racism as an Arab Muslim?

[m&n 0]

Why are you assuming that whoever is replying is a non-Arab muslim woman? Why is it assumed that whoever is replying is using what their arab SO thinks? Why is it assumed that we understood Aquol's argument to mean that muslims are victims?

nobody said they were

I'm not real comfortable with the idea that all Arabs and Muslims are victims either, being "Arab looking" and Muslim myself. It's not the way I want to gain sympathy.

Oh, yes they did. It is the entire premise of Aquol's argument that some are agreeing with.

I didn't take read the argument the same way, and I venture to say, the others agreeing did not as well.

Ok, well here's the thing. You non-Arab women love to validate your arguments by using your Arab Muslim SOs and what they might think, since they aren't here. I'm here and I have a thought as an Arab Muslim and I think that there is a lot of pc knee jerk reaction around Israel and Arab Muslims. You tend to agree with anything that supports the notion of racism, bigotry and exclusion, making us look like victims. I don't see much depth to the approach.

I also asked how many of you have first hand experience with racism as an Arab Muslim?

[Bosco 1]

nobody said they were

I'm not real comfortable with the idea that all Arabs and Muslims are victims either, being "Arab looking" and Muslim myself. It's not the way I want to gain sympathy.

Oh, yes they did. It is the entire premise of Aquol's argument that some are agreeing with.

I didn't take read the argument the same way, and I venture to say, the others agreeing did not as well.

Ok, well here's the thing. You non-Arab women love to validate your arguments by using your Arab Muslim SOs and what they might think, since they aren't here. I'm here and I have a thought as an Arab Muslim and I think that there is a lot of pc knee jerk reaction around Israel and Arab Muslims. You tend to agree with anything that supports the notion of racism, bigotry and exclusion, making us look like victims. I don't see much depth to the approach.

I also asked how many of you have first hand experience with racism as an Arab Muslim?

Where have I validated my argument by stating what my husband *might* think? Besides, my husband is here, and has been here for over a year so he what he thinks is based on his actual experiences, and he doesn't consider himself a victim although he has faced some nasty things in his time here. You said "You tend to agree with anything that supports the notion of racism, bigotry and exlusion, making us look like victims"? Are you referring to me specifically?

Why are you assuming that whoever is replying is a non-Arab muslim woman? Why is it assumed that whoever is replying is using what their arab SO thinks?Why is it assumed that we understood Aquol's argument to mean that muslims are victims?

I am wondering the same thing and don't know how it headed in this direction.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I actually read each post. No, I am not referring to you specifically. You have been the one responding to my posts. I'm only trying to gather information here. When we are talking about what is done to Arab Muslims, I think not only of my SO, but my entire family and network of friends, all of whom travel extensively. Just trying to determine where the agreement stems from, first hand experience, anecdotal experience, or rhetoric.

That's all.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

aqoul - how come every post you've ever posted has stirred up trouble.

People don't feed the troll and look at this person's past posts. Please!!!!!!

I think aquol has an absolutely valid point.

ETA: I'm pretty sure that most MENA SO's would think so too.

if you're going to get into this racist ####### then why DOES el al do this? who commits almost all terrorist attacks? why do you think that is? you don't think they should be extra careful with certain people? i'd hate to know what would have happened if they didn't have this program...

you may not buy it but is el al not the safest airline to fly? it sure is.

quit sitting there with your rosy colored glasses on. of course it sucks to be profiled. of course life would be better if everyone would be treated equal. but guess what? there are a lot of bad people out there that want to hurt us.

My blood is boiling right now. How dare you indict a group of people like this? You are talking about all of our husbands and fiances, your own fiance for #######'s sake. Your arrogance is apalling. NO ONE is out there wanting to hurt you. If you think they do, well, you might as well walk into the airport naked, then get dressed once they're done with you, for your own safety and the safety of the rest of the non-muslim non-arab people in the world.

Is there any firsthand experience with racism involved in the determinations? Just wondering.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Ok, I have a meeting to go to. It was not my intention to begin a battle. I'm just curious as to why certain postures are taken at some times and not at others, and how much of the agreement is supported by secondhand opinion or by first hand experience. I'm also curious as to how non-Arabs see the experience of Arab Muslims in comparison to those who are actually perceived by authorities to be Arab and Muslim. Or that of non-Jews to Jews, for that matter.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Jenn! 918]

aqoul - how come every post you've ever posted has stirred up trouble.

People don't feed the troll and look at this person's past posts. Please!!!!!!

I think aquol has an absolutely valid point.

ETA: I'm pretty sure that most MENA SO's would think so too.

Is there any firsthand experience with racism involved in the determinations? Just wondering.

I don't understand what you're asking. I meant that I believe that most MENA SO's would agree with aquol's point that El Al's policy amounts to racial profiling, which many believe would fall under the category of bigotry. What does having an opinion on racial profiling have to do with first hand experience with racism?

[peezey 0]

aqoul - how come every post you've ever posted has stirred up trouble.

People don't feed the troll and look at this person's past posts. Please!!!!!!

I think aquol has an absolutely valid point.

ETA: I'm pretty sure that most MENA SO's would think so too.

if you're going to get into this racist ####### then why DOES el al do this? who commits almost all terrorist attacks? why do you think that is? you don't think they should be extra careful with certain people? i'd hate to know what would have happened if they didn't have this program...

you may not buy it but is el al not the safest airline to fly? it sure is.

quit sitting there with your rosy colored glasses on. of course it sucks to be profiled. of course life would be better if everyone would be treated equal. but guess what? there are a lot of bad people out there that want to hurt us.

My blood is boiling right now. How dare you indict a group of people like this? You are talking about all of our husbands and fiances, your own fiance for #######'s sake. Your arrogance is apalling. NO ONE is out there wanting to hurt you. If you think they do, well, you might as well walk into the airport naked, then get dressed once they're done with you, for your own safety and the safety of the rest of the non-muslim non-arab people in the world.

Is there any firsthand experience with racism involved in the determinations? Just wondering.

Yes. And why does that matter? One can have an opinion of something without ever having been strip searched or asked about your sex life in front of strangers.

Edited February 15, 2007 by peezey

[Jenn! 918]

Ok, I guess I see what you're saying. My comments have been toward the concept and not necessarily the practice. Neither my husband or I have flown El Al, so I am commenting on racial profiling in general, not on El Al's implementation of its policy.