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Illegal. Terminated already for fraud. but applied for adjustment anyway. (split thread)

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Filed: Timeline

Any suggestions on how to get out of the I-864 once scammed?

I mean they could be here forever illegally, essentially, but if the gov doesn't do their job in picking them up, is there any way to have some sort of action taken to be removed? (after they already got their conditional GC).

I know I've been told no, that you can't be removed. Which I understand is a policy issue. But would there be a possibility to set a precedence through a lawsuit against the gov for non-action to be let out of the contract? Therefore force a change of policy?

Has anyone ever considered a class-action lawsuit for victim rights? It appears that victim resources are only allowed for "regular federal" crimes. But technically all immigration crimes are also federal crimes. So if you go to the DOJ website for your state, you will find victim resources for anyone who is victim/witness to federal crime, just that they discriminate against immigration related crimes. Same with FBI that has a victim specialist for federal crime victims, but they offer no resources for immigration victims.

Has anyone ever used the federal bill of victim rights when dealing with the USCIS? (I did. It was actually successful to obtain information and send a service request for an expedite).

Federal crime victim bill of rights, does encompass all federal crimes so would then be related to immigration crimes. In the bill of rights it states (amongst others) you have a right to be protected, as well as a right to make a statement at the trial, and a right for a speedy trial.

Anyone ever consider a class action lawsuit for victim rights to speedy trial? To ensure they are processed in a timely manner?

I find the I-864 to be completely crazy, that any other document you can get out of when someone defrauded you into signing it. You can even go back on an adoption. But the I-864 the government forces you to remain beholden, yet at the same time refuses to take timely action.

Any thoughts?

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Filed: K-1 Visa Country: Wales
Timeline

Most immigration issues are civil rather than criminal.

Sounds like your ex is on the run from a deportation order, seems unlikely you will be at risk from an I 864

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

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Filed: Timeline

Most immigration issues are civil rather than criminal.

Sounds like your ex is on the run from a deportation order, seems unlikely you will be at risk from an I 864

Nope, not on the run. Here to stay and wreak havoc until USCIS finishes the removal process. :(

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Filed: K-1 Visa Country: Wales
Timeline

She is still here legally?

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

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Filed: Timeline

Im sorry you are not making any sense or I am missing something? You say your Mrs was terminated for fraud BUT applied for adjustment anyway? And that adjustment is going to take forever and will happen before an Imm Judge. You certain it will end in removal.

So what exactly was terminated for fraud and how was adjustment applied for anyway and why are you certain it is going to be before a judge?

----

Anyway regarding your original post:

Any suggestions on how to get out of the I-864 once scammed?

I mean they could be here forever illegally, essentially, but if the gov doesn't do their job in picking them up, is there any way to have some sort of action taken to be removed? (after they already got their conditional GC).

I understand what you are saying here except for the after they already got their GC bit., In theory if you report a scam it goes one of two ways. They find it to be factual and revoke the card, or they dont and the card stands. In the favorable situation (the card is revoked) its not an automatic 864 is poof gone as well. Which I think is your rant.

To end the 864 the alien that was legally admitted needs to depart the US or fill out a form abandoning status, or it can be done in removal proceedings but provision will apply only if the sponsored immigrant is found in a removal proceeding to have abandoned that status while abroad.

Or if they are in removal and apply for a new adjustment of status with a new sponsor the old one is out.

Is there some sort of action to force the gov to pick them up? Not really. They dont have the resources and its a really complicated political issue. Look at the "papers please" states. Huge amounts of outrage there- from both non blonde hair blue eyed Americans feeling they are being racially stereotyped and harassed. To advocacy groups claiming families are being torn apart. And then in CA youve got them handing out DLs- because its like we know youre going to be here and we know youre driving and look at all the accidents your causing because you are untrained. And again outrage.

I know I've been told no, that you can't be removed. Which I understand is a policy issue. But would there be a possibility to set a precedence through a lawsuit against the gov for non-action to be let out of the contract? Therefore force a change of policy?

Has anyone ever considered a class-action lawsuit for victim rights? It appears that victim resources are only allowed for "regular federal" crimes. But technically all immigration crimes are also federal crimes. So if you go to the DOJ website for your state, you will find victim resources for anyone who is victim/witness to federal crime, just that they discriminate against immigration related crimes. Same with FBI that has a victim specialist for federal crime victims, but they offer no resources for immigration victims.

For a law suit first you would have to have successfully had the card revoked under fraud. For a class action one you would need to find many others in the same boat and a lawyer willing to file it. On your own it wont be cheap. Perhaps as a class action an advocacy group would take up the cause. Not sure how many you will find though that are removed for fraud...

As for a federal resource center for immigration victims excuse me while I lol. I see you have recently joined VJ, perhaps you have not been a long time reader? I encourage you to browse through the many many pages of effects of major changes here and see some of the nonsense and outrageous claims people consider 'fraud' that are posted here in all seriousness. Relationships are highly emotional and when feelings are hurt your perspective sometimes gets skewed. There is no way the gov is going to set up anything more then the ICE report fraud link/phone numbers.

Has anyone ever used the federal bill of victim rights when dealing with the USCIS? (I did. It was actually successful to obtain information and send a service request for an expedite).

Federal crime victim bill of rights, does encompass all federal crimes so would then be related to immigration crimes. In the bill of rights it states (amongst others) you have a right to be protected, as well as a right to make a statement at the trial, and a right for a speedy trial.

Anyone ever consider a class action lawsuit for victim rights to speedy trial? To ensure they are processed in a timely manner?

Who is on trial?

I find the I-864 to be completely crazy, that any other document you can get out of when someone defrauded you into signing it. You can even go back on an adoption. But the I-864 the government forces you to remain beholden, yet at the same time refuses to take timely action.

Any thoughts?

random thoughts- if you withdraw your 864 before the gc is issued its a non issue, how ever if you dont and the card is issued and you discover fraud and successfully get the persons gc is revoked- seek to have them deported at the removal hearing or at least held. (its a long shot I know). Since local law enforcement does not actively pursue illegals theres no point in going to them for assistance, however if the alien in question is out of status and detained for some other reason and it is discovered they are out of status they will be turned over to ICE.

Because you got someones GC revoked that could make them pretty angry with you. You could seek out a restraining order. If by some odd chance you and they ended up at the same place and the police were called they would be automatically arrested. Wouldnt matter if they were there first or it was an accident. They have to detain them. Prints would be run and the status would be discovered. (If the person in question is currently in another adjustment procedure they are not illegal illegal but illegal with a period of auth stay while things are sorted out so there would be no hold).

--

Your idea of trying to get the gov to release people from the 864 when the gc is revoked and the alien does not leave the US is a novel one. I can see the govs position. If the alien is still in the US they want someone to still be accountable for them. I can see your position as well, if you were defrauded you should be relieved of it- but then the burden will fall on the gov (which is essentially all taxpayers equally).

You do need to keep in mind the 864 is rarely enforced by the gov for collection. Once in a blue moon does it come up that they attempt to collect money from the USCs. Its highly unpopular. Political suicide and costs more in collection efforts then it brings in. A concern for the USC though is potential sponsorship for another alien and the increase in household size if NVC determines that 864 is still in effect even though the GC is terminated. (in a case like that since you are not always privy to others movements I would put down that you previously had an 864 for the person but its no longer in effect as the gc was revoked and you 'assume' they left the country. Let them tell you to recalculate otherwise.)

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Filed: Timeline

I understand all of those things. I'm actually fairly well versed in the legal side of things, as well as what my duties are, and the sob stories of others. I am merely suggesting a pro-active approach, of at least attempting to do something to make changes. One of the only ways to make changes is contact your legislators, and hope they will listen to your 1 in a million requests. Or to take legal action. Suing the government gets heard much sooner and much louder.

Immigrants have sued the government for not processing their applications soon enough. So it would then be logical to think it possible for the victims to also sue, as the victim bill of rights gives them the same right to a speedy trial.

For my ex - GC terminated for marriage fraud and NTA sent out. He never appeared, continues to work illegally, and applied for an I-751 as if nothing had happened previously. So it has to be adjudicated, hanging out in CA still, before he gets sent to IJ.

Harassment orders are difficult to get unless there is physical abuse or stalking at a supreme level.

When you are supporting someone as I-864, you cannot petition for another to come, and you have to claim them as dependent on certain loan forms and causes a great deal of difficulties for financial investments etc. So it still does have a negative impact, even if technically they may never come after you for that support.

I am just not one to whine about the situation. I would rather be proactive about it, and seek for change through the justice system that is worse than the scammer.

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Filed: Timeline

Respectfully- Who is giving you some of this information?

For my ex - GC terminated for marriage fraud and NTA sent out. He never appeared, continues to work illegally, and applied for an I-751 as if nothing had happened previously. So it has to be adjudicated, hanging out in CA still, before he gets sent to IJ.

I ask because immigration matters are confidential between USCIS and the immigrant. So a lot of times theres misinformation passed along between 3rd parties that know the couple and its incorrect. The dont know the forms or the procedures and they are trying to be helpful, but with matters like this one wrong detail makes a huge difference in whats going on- or not going on...

So number one. Are you sure the GC was terminated? How do you know? Did you see proof? Were you told/by whom? Second that for the NTA.

Number 2- if he sent in a 751 on a terminated GC its not going to get adjudicated per say, but it will be processed. Two different things. It will be processed and found to be baseless as there is no GC to adjudicate- it was terminated. The application should have been rejected as soon as it arrived- just like when people file to early or file for something they are not entitled to (citizenship too early, residency for a family member when priority date is not current etc)

So who exactly told you its going to be adjudicated and he will have to go before and IJ?

Harassment orders are difficult to get unless there is physical abuse or stalking at a supreme level.

protection orders are not that difficult to get. You simply need to prove you are in fear. Have you looked into them in your area? I feel strongly that being able to demonstrate that you had someones legal status revoked and they are now illegal and you fear the repercussions based on that- You would show their poor moral character in committing the fraud, remaining illegal working illegal etc to demonstrate they have no respect for the law and are capable of breaking it. But the main point you need to demonstrate is that you are fearful of the individual, someone who does not respect the law and are fearful they will seek revenge for you getting their GC revoked.

When you are supporting someone as I-864, you cannot petition for another to come,

oh my goodness of course you can. You can have as many 864s as your income allows for. Read the instructions carefully, you just have to include everyone in your household size. That includes yourself, spouse if you have on, dependents if any, and 864'ers. Those 864ers can be son in laws, friends, sister in laws etc. It stresses not to count anyone twice like spouse. Some people have enough income to sponsor their spouse and then later on they help sponsor someone in their spouses family who is immigrating. Or a friend of their spouse who is immigrating and their USC counterpart does not meet the requirements.

The only time you cant petition for someone else to come in family based visas is if you are married and youre trying to petition another spouse! lol.

you have to claim them as dependent on certain loan forms and causes a great deal of difficulties for financial investments etc. So it still does have a negative impact, even if technically they may never come after you for that support.

Yikes no. What loan forms have you been filing out? The 864 is a contract between you and the gov to pay back any means tested benefits they may receive. It does not make them your dependent. You would only fill someone out on a loan form if you were claiming them on your taxes. The 864 doesnt mean they must be on your taxes! In many situations (spousal) joint taxes are filed. But when people divorce - their taxes are separated, their lives are separated- neither is dependent on each other.

I do strongly agree that taking action is the best way to go to get changes done. And it is a change that should be done. In cases where the GC is terminated the 864 should also be terminated regardless if the alien leaves the US or not. However like I said youd have to find enough people in the same boat with the same feelings about it that want to start a class action suit and an advocacy group willing to take on the cause...

Youre not going to find those kind of numbers here. I can try to dig through some links for advocacy groups but I think youd be better off just searching google because they are probably buried so far back. Dont be scared off because they appear to be immigrant advocacy groups. If they fight to change USCIS policies- it could be the right one. Doesnt matter if the policy benefits the USC or the alien.

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Filed: Timeline

I meant that it we are unable as our salary would not allow for it. I think I sad AOS in my original post, but I meant ROC with the I-751.

Info is all coming directly from USCIS, ICE and DHS. I exercised my right as victim to know the information per the federal bill of rights.

They certainly are considered a liability. If at any time they were to become a public charge, we would then be forced to pay for him. So this affects the ability to pay for a loan if one were to be taken out. Unless you don't include that information in your application, but that would not be ethical, and could possibly be considered misrepresentation in itself.

I agree with you on policy changes too. I'm sure there are policies that are currently not right for the immigrant either. So having fair policies for everyone would be ideal. If you do have any info I'd appreciate it to look into. Thank you.

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Filed: K-1 Visa Country: Wales
Timeline

An IJ can terminate the GC. The individual could surrender it. Not sure what you think happened.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

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Filed: Citizen (apr) Country: Canada
Timeline

~~Split from Reporting fraud. As this needed its own thread.~~

Spoiler

Met Playing Everquest in 2005
Engaged 9-15-2006
K-1 & 4 K-2'S
Filed 05-09-07
Interview 03-12-08
Visa received 04-21-08
Entry 05-06-08
Married 06-21-08
AOS X5
Filed 07-08-08
Cards Received01-22-09
Roc X5
Filed 10-17-10
Cards Received02-22-11
Citizenship
Filed 10-17-11
Interview 01-12-12
Oath 06-29-12

Citizenship for older 2 boys

Filed 03/08/2014

NOA/fee waiver 03/19/2014

Biometrics 04/15/14

Interview 05/29/14

In line for Oath 06/20/14

Oath 09/19/2014 We are all done! All USC no more USCIS

 

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Filed: Timeline

And then they said, he would have an opportunity to try to argue against it in front of an IJ.

But they won't do anything unless something triggers a look at his file.

Which he filed for ROC I-751, even though he had his GC terminated (according to ICE).

And so they said this should trigger his file to be looked at and sent to ICE, but waiting for the file to be routed through the whole process. So they would probably reject it or deny outright, or send to local field office, who would refer to ICE.

ICE already has a case open for him and has requested his file.

*This all according to them.

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Filed: Timeline

An IJ can terminate the GC. The individual could surrender it. Not sure what you think happened.

Sorry I didn't quote in the other post. But do you think something else might be going on from what they are telling me?

They said that because the NTA was sent out but no court date with it, that with the I-751 it needed to be ruled on first, so even though it would be denied, it still has to go through the process, to then get his file back to field office. It's currently with California Service Center.

Anyone know if it's possible to contact CSC to expedite that?

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Filed: Timeline

Respectfully- Who is giving you some of this information?

I ask because immigration matters are confidential between USCIS and the immigrant. So a lot of times theres misinformation passed along between 3rd parties that know the couple and its incorrect. The dont know the forms or the procedures and they are trying to be helpful, but with matters like this one wrong detail makes a huge difference in whats going on- or not going on...

So number one. Are you sure the GC was terminated? How do you know? Did you see proof? Were you told/by whom? Second that for the NTA.

Number 2- if he sent in a 751 on a terminated GC its not going to get adjudicated per say, but it will be processed. Two different things. It will be processed and found to be baseless as there is no GC to adjudicate- it was terminated. The application should have been rejected as soon as it arrived- just like when people file to early or file for something they are not entitled to (citizenship too early, residency for a family member when priority date is not current etc)

So who exactly told you its going to be adjudicated and he will have to go before and IJ?

protection orders are not that difficult to get. You simply need to prove you are in fear. Have you looked into them in your area? I feel strongly that being able to demonstrate that you had someones legal status revoked and they are now illegal and you fear the repercussions based on that- You would show their poor moral character in committing the fraud, remaining illegal working illegal etc to demonstrate they have no respect for the law and are capable of breaking it. But the main point you need to demonstrate is that you are fearful of the individual, someone who does not respect the law and are fearful they will seek revenge for you getting their GC revoked.

oh my goodness of course you can. You can have as many 864s as your income allows for. Read the instructions carefully, you just have to include everyone in your household size. That includes yourself, spouse if you have on, dependents if any, and 864'ers. Those 864ers can be son in laws, friends, sister in laws etc. It stresses not to count anyone twice like spouse. Some people have enough income to sponsor their spouse and then later on they help sponsor someone in their spouses family who is immigrating. Or a friend of their spouse who is immigrating and their USC counterpart does not meet the requirements.

The only time you cant petition for someone else to come in family based visas is if you are married and youre trying to petition another spouse! lol.

Yikes no. What loan forms have you been filing out? The 864 is a contract between you and the gov to pay back any means tested benefits they may receive. It does not make them your dependent. You would only fill someone out on a loan form if you were claiming them on your taxes. The 864 doesnt mean they must be on your taxes! In many situations (spousal) joint taxes are filed. But when people divorce - their taxes are separated, their lives are separated- neither is dependent on each other.

I do strongly agree that taking action is the best way to go to get changes done. And it is a change that should be done. In cases where the GC is terminated the 864 should also be terminated regardless if the alien leaves the US or not. However like I said youd have to find enough people in the same boat with the same feelings about it that want to start a class action suit and an advocacy group willing to take on the cause...

Youre not going to find those kind of numbers here. I can try to dig through some links for advocacy groups but I think youd be better off just searching google because they are probably buried so far back. Dont be scared off because they appear to be immigrant advocacy groups. If they fight to change USCIS policies- it could be the right one. Doesnt matter if the policy benefits the USC or the alien.

Also wanted to mention, I did try to get a harassment order twice and they denied it. He's even threatened to come to the home. there's a 911 call and police report. But because we have a child together they consider it all family law issues. :( So unless he does something physically, or threatens a physical attack, they won't approve it.

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