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National Health Insurance Now, Not Later

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ergo, it's not necessarily free then, is it? but taxes are subjective are they not? a homeowner pays more than a renter. a doctor pays more than a wal-mart greeter in state income taxes, and so on. it may not come out of my pocket on a daily basis, but i assure you it comes out of my pocket twice a year to the tune of almost $900 each time. perhaps a use fee should be implemented to insure that those who use such pay their fair share rather than levying the burden primarily on the educated homeowners. i know that i certainly have not gotten my money's worth from the library and parks around here. maybe cause i'm too busy working :P

So...if these things were to be technically free, meaning no tax dollars, then how would you propose these things get paid for so we can enjoy them or utilize them? maybe in the technical sense nothing is free, but to me having free admission to the park or museum really IS free. Yes my tax dollars did contribute to its construction, to pay salaries, etc. but I am not charged AGAIN to enjoy these things. Do you also think that the wal-mart greeter should pay the same amount of tax as the doctor? Are you saying that isn't fair? Renters pay taxes, in the form of local sales tax and ad valorem taxes. Renters also pay taxes in the form of local income taxes taken out of their paychecks. Homeowners pay more taxes, this is true. I never said that was far either. Still, both pay taxes in some form. So what is your proposal? Use Fee Tax? How would that work? What do you mean by the "educated" homeowner? Not trying to yank your chain, just genuinely curious. :)

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Other than the exorbitant taxes that would be required to pay for a boondoggle like national health care my other huge problem with it is the quality would go down. I don't like the idea of the government telling me what I need and how long I have to wait for it. I like my health care just as it is.

Hint it is a lot less than the cost of the chimps folly in Iraq - Still why keep people alive and healthy for less money than it costs to kill them :rolleyes:

Quality does not go down that is a myth. There is no compulsion to use a nationalised health service you are free to carry on choosing a private provider.

Thats the problem. If the joke of national freeloader health care ever happens then the employers will stop offering it.

I didn't know we were talking about Iraq. It seems that when you have nothing intelligent to offer you try to change the subject.

And your evidence for this being a problem is what exactly? Your intelligent offering is rhetoric yet again. Long on opinion and short on fact as usual. :rolleyes:

What exactly is your experience of a National Health System, how it is funded, how it operates in conjunction with a private insurance based system, what do you know about the doctors who work within them? From the previous posts you have made on the subject I would stake virtually nothing. Do you think no employer in Europe offers private medical insurance schemes? Please enlighten me as to the basis you post your opinion as authorative.

You objected to a perceived increase in taxation. There does not need to be any increase in taxation, just a reallocation of current taxes raised. If you being unable to see there is a connection between spending billions of dollars of taxpayers money on Dubyahs Iraq folly and a lack of funds for US citizens who need an adequate health care system then I hate to break it to you but I am not the one lacking intelligent offerings here ;)

Edited by DelcoCouple
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You objected to a perceived increase in taxation. There does not need to be any increase in taxation, just a reallocation of current taxes raised. If you being unable to see there is a connection between spending billions of dollars of taxpayers money on Dubyahs Iraq folly and a lack of funds for US citizens who need an adequate health care system then I hate to break it to you but I am not the one lacking intelligent offerings here ;)

There you go again. Your showing a total lack of intelligence again. When you have nothing to say you go back to Iraq.

If you think this will not increase taxes you either have no conception of how politics works in America or your just lying to yourself. Something as HUGE as a national health care program will dwarf any previous government program. The taxes will go sky high!

$750-800 billion would certainly fix a lot of our domestic woes....

But it wouldn't touch what we would end up paying for national health care.

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You objected to a perceived increase in taxation. There does not need to be any increase in taxation, just a reallocation of current taxes raised. If you being unable to see there is a connection between spending billions of dollars of taxpayers money on Dubyahs Iraq folly and a lack of funds for US citizens who need an adequate health care system then I hate to break it to you but I am not the one lacking intelligent offerings here ;)

There you go again. Your showing a total lack of intelligence again. When you have nothing to say you go back to Iraq.

If you think this will not increase taxes you either have no conception of how politics works in America or your just lying to yourself. Something as HUGE as a national health care program will dwarf any previous government program. The taxes will go sky high!

$750-800 billion would certainly fix a lot of our domestic woes....

But it wouldn't touch what we would end up paying for national health care.

And there you go again ignoring the points raised.:lol: Please answer the questions posed instead of relying on ad hominem attacks which mean nothing on an Internet forum.:rolleyes:

Your evidence for an increase in taxes as the exclusive method of health care funding comes from which authoritative source?

You do not of course appear to understand the idiocy of your position that you will pay a cost in taxes that you do not currently bear. Let me introduce you to a quick economics for dummies lesson. The ever increasing costs of health care insurance premiums to employers are not magically paid from the fantasy land bank account. They are a sunk cost of doing business as an overhead expense and therefore passed on to the end consumer. You are paying that cost anyway. You just do not see it as visible so ignore it but hey if lala land suits you better who am I to entice you into reality? ;)

Edited by DelcoCouple
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But it wouldn't touch what we would end up paying for national health care.

Who knows

Just look at anything else the government does. They start out all optimistic, telling us it will not cost much but years down the road it turns into a giant black hole that they keep throwing our tax dollars at. Take welfare for as example. We have spent trillions of dollars on it since "the great society" was started in the 60's. And yet today we still have the same proportion of people living in poverty as we did then. All that money was just wasted.

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But it wouldn't touch what we would end up paying for national health care.

Who knows

Just look at anything else the government does. They start out all optimistic, telling us it will not cost much but years down the road it turns into a giant black hole that they keep throwing our tax dollars at. Take welfare for as example. We have spent trillions of dollars on it since "the great society" was started in the 60's. And yet today we still have the same proportion of people living in poverty as we did then. All that money was just wasted.

Like the war...

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I am stunned (and disgusted) by the wave of anti-physician feelings spreading through this thread by those who are in-favor of a national healthcare system. Some of you actually believe (amazingly so) that the doctor not only has a say in what sort of healthcare the United States runs, but is a multi-millionaire, out playing golf every Thursday.

News flash for a number of you: Physicians are not rich. Yes, they make more than the average office worker, but rightly so. They have had years upon years of training, and are performing an incredibly important service and save lives. If you want to upset with a profession that makes "too much" money, then look to sports stars -- they play games and regularly earn millions for doing what kids do for free.

The amount a physician makes is directly related to the insurance company the patient has at the time. Many times, the insurance companies will hold off paying the doctor (or not pay at all) for services rendered. It doesn't really matter what the physician charges, he or she will only make what the insurance company decides. For instance, say a doctor charges $100 for whatever. The insurance company can turn around and pay the doctor half or a fourth of that amount and there is nothing the doctor can do about it. Doctors rarely, if ever, make what they charge today. If a patient has no insurance and shows up in the emergency room (ER), then the ER doctor must take care of the patient for free. The patient cannot be turned away.

Next, physicians do not make policy. Many would like to -- and some have tried, and succeeded by becoming part of the government like Bill Frist -- but they cannot change laws or make new ones. Doctors have no more power than the average citizen in that regard. A doctor's vote counts just as much as the worker's at Wal-Mart.

Now you might ask, "How the hell do you know anything about doctors and the medical community?" Well, that's a good question. My father is a physician (a neurologist) and I've grown up around the medical community and many, many doctors and medical staff workers. I understand how things work. Those in the medical field are victims just as much as everyone else of the insurance companies. They are the ones to blame -- not the doctor. If it were up to the American Medical Association, they'd do away with all insurance companies and have Americans choose their own doctors, allowing people and their doctors to choose how to go ahead and proceed with medical issues, instead of some nitwit in an office somewhere making medical decisions for the both of them.

I know some here will disagree. Some here will say, "Oh, it's those nasty, greedy doctors!" Well...fine. Believe what you want. I've tried my best, and if it falls on deaf ears, then there's no use arguing... :wacko:

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Next, physicians do not make policy. Many would like to -- and some have tried, and succeeded by becoming part of the government like Bill Frist -- but they cannot change laws or make new ones. Doctors have no more power than the average citizen in that regard. A doctor's vote counts just as much as the worker's at Wal-Mart.

More doctors should run for congress because they are actually smart, unlike ###### talking lawyers.. Like whats his name, Odumbasmila..

Edited by Infidel

According to the Internal Revenue Service, the 400 richest American households earned a total of $US138 billion, up from $US105 billion a year earlier. That's an average of $US345 million each, on which they paid a tax rate of just 16.6 per cent.

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More doctors should run for congress because they are actually smart, unlike ###### talking lawyers.. Like whats his name, Odumbasmila..

They may even help pass a law to help cure that chip on your shoulder ;)

Edited by DelcoCouple
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ergo, it's not necessarily free then, is it? but taxes are subjective are they not? a homeowner pays more than a renter. a doctor pays more than a wal-mart greeter in state income taxes, and so on. it may not come out of my pocket on a daily basis, but i assure you it comes out of my pocket twice a year to the tune of almost $900 each time. perhaps a use fee should be implemented to insure that those who use such pay their fair share rather than levying the burden primarily on the educated homeowners. i know that i certainly have not gotten my money's worth from the library and parks around here. maybe cause i'm too busy working :P

So...if these things were to be technically free, meaning no tax dollars, then how would you propose these things get paid for so we can enjoy them or utilize them? maybe in the technical sense nothing is free, but to me having free admission to the park or museum really IS free. Yes my tax dollars did contribute to its construction, to pay salaries, etc. but I am not charged AGAIN to enjoy these things. Do you also think that the wal-mart greeter should pay the same amount of tax as the doctor? Are you saying that isn't fair? Renters pay taxes, in the form of local sales tax and ad valorem taxes. Renters also pay taxes in the form of local income taxes taken out of their paychecks. Homeowners pay more taxes, this is true. I never said that was far either. Still, both pay taxes in some form. So what is your proposal? Use Fee Tax? How would that work? What do you mean by the "educated" homeowner? Not trying to yank your chain, just genuinely curious. :)

karen, just because these places were built/funded with taxpayer dollars that does not mean they don't keep getting funded with taxpayer dollars. it's really not free even after any of it is made, as there is upkeep and salaries, is there not? nor am i saying the wal mart greeter should pay as much in taxes as a doctor, but if both go to the library the same amount of times the greeter got his/her money's worth whereas the doctor who paid more probably didn't due to the taxes being higher on the doctor.

the educated homeowner - that was to separate billy bob in his trailer from someone who owns a house on a slab ;) there is certainly a difference in taxes there :lol:

yes, a fee for use is imo the way to go. $1 a day/person would be appropriate i'd think.

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More doctors should run for congress because they are actually smart, unlike ###### talking lawyers.. Like whats his name, Odumbasmila..

They may even help pass a law to help cure that chip on your shoulder ;)

I think people confuse my 'telling it like it is' approach for having a chip on my shoulder..

According to the Internal Revenue Service, the 400 richest American households earned a total of $US138 billion, up from $US105 billion a year earlier. That's an average of $US345 million each, on which they paid a tax rate of just 16.6 per cent.

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More doctors should run for congress because they are actually smart, unlike ###### talking lawyers.. Like whats his name, Odumbasmila..

They may even help pass a law to help cure that chip on your shoulder ;)

I think people confuse my 'telling it like it is' approach for having a chip on my shoulder..

Tampa plaintiffs' attorney Steven Yerrid has notched a long string of seven- and eight-figure jury verdicts over the course of his 30-year career. But he'd never hit nine digits - until this fall.

Yerrid was lead trial counsel in a medical malpractice case on behalf of a man who was paralyzed when emergency room personnel misdiagnosed his stroke as a sinus infection. Not only did his client exhibit the classic signs of a stroke, Yerrid argued that the medical personnel failed to take into account the strong history of strokes in his family.

On Sept. 29 a jury in Tampa, Fla., awarded his client $116.7 million in compensatory damages, then, four days later, added $100.1 million in punitives.

The $216.8 million verdict is the largest malpractice case in Florida history and, according to Yerrid, the third largest in U.S. history.

http://www.lawyersweeklyusa.com/subscriber...06/C1806101.htm

Yep that doctor sure was smarter than the lawyer guy :P

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I have lived in a country with a National Healthcare System and one without and I know what I would choose! The NHS is a Godsend, in my opinion, and the fact that some people are kept waiting is fine with me when those that have life-threatening conditions are treated promptly. Unfortunately, some cannot see that a minor injury doesn't take precedence over someone with a life-threatening ailment. Emergency rooms are just that - for emergencies - and I can't tell you how many times I have seen people complain about their having to wait for treatment, when a child is rushed in after a car accident, and complain that they "jumped the queue"! It makes me sick!

I am leaving the US to travel to the UK in a few hours to go visit my father who was diagnosed with colon cancer only a few days ago. He was scheduled for a surgery to remove his thyroid and the doctor ordered a full-body CT scan to get a clear picture of what was going on. He had his routine screening colonoscopy, which showed a black area. Biospy taken, malignancy confirmed, appointment with the consultant made, surgery scheduled, all within a week.

The surgeon feels that his recovery from the bowel surgery will be far better if the thyroid is removed at the same time.

After a week in hospital he will be returned to his home and community nurses will attend the house. My mother will receive a "care allowance" and "attendance allowance" for simply being there and saving the NHS the cost of having him in the hospital where he will make a slower recovery - most people prefer to be in their own homes after surgery. I know I was two weeks ago when I had surgery here in the US.

When the "chips are down" when it comes to your health, I would certainly prefer to live in the UK where they have a NHS than here in the US where you have to weigh up whether you want to risk losing your home or your health. At least in the UK you don't have to ever worry about that.

There are so many other things that the NHS provides, that so many forget about. Pre and Post Natal Care, childbirth costs, dental treatment, braces for your kids teeth (I could hardly believe it when I saw adults here with braces because they could only now afford to pay for them!!!), care in the community, nurses attending your home after surgery/childbirth, clinics for just about every kind of illness, free vaccinations, tests, surgery, post-operative care, there are a million and one things that the NHS provide.

Oh, and if you are waiting for any time for a "non life-threatening procedure" you are obviously on the waiting list of a very busy hospital. You can request treatment at ANY hospital in the UK, in some cases they will even send you to other countries for treatment. You merely have to request it. My mother had surgery at a hospital further away from her home because their waiting list was only a few weeks, as opposed to a few months if she had it closer to home. The NHS even paid for her travel expenses!

My husband just pointed out that it is knowing the right questions to ask that is the key. Well, no it isn't. The UK Government fund a bureau specifically to deal with ANY questions any one has on anything, from how to sue a builder to how to file forms to claim government grants or assistance. The Citizens Advice Bureau is in every town. I am sure there are those that will say "but it's paid for by the taxpayer!" Well, I don't see any such service being offered in the town where I live in the US and I pay more tax here than I ever did in the UK!

Sorry, but this is a particularly sensitive subject to me at the moment and I can't sing the praises of the NHS enough.

Will be gone for a couple of months, at least, not really interested in any responses to this post - just wanted to get that off my chest!

Our journey started in 2001 and it's still not over. It's been a rollercoaster ride all the way! Let me off - I wanna be sick!

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