National Health Insurance Now, Not Later

[GaryC 7]

But you don't support reform of the health insurance industry? That ain't going to happen without some sort of government regulation...

I disagree. I am a free market believer. I honestly do think that the market will dictate a change in the insurance companies. As things keep getting more and more expensive then some bright young man or woman will come along with an idea that will work. He/She will be able to offer health care that is better than the way we do it now. Then just to keep their clients the others will have to join along. I know, you don't have that faith in a free market but I do.

As far as the "free market" goes (specifically with regards to healthcare) - the pursuit of profit at the expensive of patient care is a fundamental conflict of interest. My father in law almost had a heart attack as a direct result of an insurance agent interfering with his medical care. But apparently that's not the problem - the real reason our healthcare is so expensive is totally not because of the quality and cost of the service provided, but somehow has something to do with the recipient consumer. Makes sense to me...

That is my point really. ATM the insurance companies are having their way. When enough people get pissed about it someone with a better way will see his chance. At that point it will be join or die for the insurance companies.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

If the free market is working so well with healthcare in this country how come its the most expensive in the world?

[GaryC 7]

If the free market is working so well with healthcare in this country how come its the most expensive in the world?

Give it a little time. Patience grasshopper! The American way of doing things will win out. Have faith. Our country became the strongest in the world because of free markets. It has served us well and made us the envy of much of the world. I am a true patriot. I do have faith in the American people to find the best way of doing things. It may not be fast or it may not seem fair while it's working itself out but in the end we usually get it right.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That is my point really. ATM the insurance companies are having their way. When enough people get pissed about it someone with a better way will see his chance. At that point it will be join or die for the insurance companies.

We'll all be old and grey before that happens my friend, and I suspect will have more pressing problems by then. You're still being ripped off by High Street banks who have no reason to change practices which are illegal in Europe. That whole loyalty fee thing you pay when you use another bank's ATM... costs them absolutely nothing, but they ream you for it anyway.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

since other countries are spending less (of both government and private money) and living longer, I have to believe it is just not the case in this situation.

The free market isn't working -- there are few incentives to reduce costs or create efficiencies. And besides health care in America is not nearly as rooted in the private sector as you're assuming, since one way or another, more than half the bill ends up being paid by the state. We're spending hte same amount of public money as a percentage of GDP yet we don't have universal coverage (like other big economies)

[GaryC 7]

I have to respectably disagree. I have untold faith in the American people. I really don't think it will be very long and you will see someone that can offer health care in a much better way.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

since other countries are spending less (of both government and private money) and living longer, I have to believe it is just not the case in this situation.

The free market isn't working -- there are few incentives to reduce costs or create efficiencies. And besides health care in America is not nearly as rooted in the private sector as you're assuming, since one way or another, more than half the bill ends up being paid by the state. We're spending the same amount of public money as a percentage of GDP yet we don't have universal coverage (like other big economies)

Or more specifically, like the other biggest economies!

And no - there are no incentives for health insurance companies to do anything when their primary goal is profit (which, like the rest of the insurance industry means paying out as few claims as possible), and while they preside over a captive market.

I guess the only way people learn this is the hard way - when they get cancer, can't work and have to re mortgage their home to pay for the treatment.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... and have to re mortgage their home to pay for the treatment.

That assumes one has enough equity. Lots of people these days don't.

From the WSJ, courtesy Calculated Risk:

These new challenges come ... when .... about $1.1 trillion to $1.5 trillion in ARMs ... will face rate increases this year ... The MBA expects borrowers to refinance as much as $700 billion of those mortgages.

"The decrease in property values, combined with prepayment penalties, is making it very challenging for people to get out of these loans," says Ed Shanks, an executive vice president with U.S. Bank Home Mortgage, a unit of U.S. Bancorp. U.S. Bank is seeing more loans fall through, particularly in markets such as Arizona, California, Colorado and Ohio, where home values have softened. It could be "the tip of the iceberg," Mr. Shanks says.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

... and have to re mortgage their home to pay for the treatment.

That assumes one has enough equity. Lots of people these days don't.

From the WSJ, courtesy Calculated Risk:

These new challenges come ... when .... about $1.1 trillion to $1.5 trillion in ARMs ... will face rate increases this year ... The MBA expects borrowers to refinance as much as $700 billion of those mortgages.

"The decrease in property values, combined with prepayment penalties, is making it very challenging for people to get out of these loans," says Ed Shanks, an executive vice president with U.S. Bank Home Mortgage, a unit of U.S. Bancorp. U.S. Bank is seeing more loans fall through, particularly in markets such as Arizona, California, Colorado and Ohio, where home values have softened. It could be "the tip of the iceberg," Mr. Shanks says.

If you rent (as we currently do) you could find yourself out on the street, or so debt-ridden you have to work 18 hour days.

[rebeccajo 14]

Becca,

I am sorry you think I am so heartless. I really am not. I just believe in personal responsibility. I did what was needed to make sure I had health care. I am no one special. I didn't get some lucky break. I worked hard and planned ahead. But the ones that want socialized medicine want to negate all the work and effort I and everyone else that did the right thing have done. You want to get into my pocket to pay for someone else's health care. That just isn't fair. I will never agree with it. Call me heartless if you want. I call it being responsible for your own life.

P.S.

If you look at some of my other posts I made an exception for those with physical and mental problems that prohibit them from working and getting health care. We already have programs in place for those people. It's called Social Security Disability. They are taken care of.

I don't think you are heartless, Gary. But I sure do think you have a forgotten a thing or two. As I recall, you've had a time or two in your life where you were between jobs. I'll bet you didn't have any health insurance then. Does that mean you still weren't a hard worker? No. Does that mean you weren't responsible for yourself? No. It means you were a victim of circumstance.

I get up and go to work everyday. I don't draw foodstamps. I manage to make my own house payment. I pay my own utilities. I pay all my bills - on time. I have a credit score pushing 800. I am a responsible working mother and wife.

I don't have one drop of health insurance. I haven't had a female exam in two years. I haven't had a mammogram in two years. I wear a pair of eyeglasses that don't really work for me anymore and have one broken earpiece.

Don't you even call me a freeloader.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The other point as I've said before is the total lack of job security in the US. In my contract there is a clause that says I can be terminated at any time and for any reason (something that would never happen in Britain). It should be illegal here too - as it would seem to contradict every law out there pertaining to discrimination and "unfair dismissal". No surprise that there are so many lawsuits against companies - and yet its those lawsuits, and lawsuits against healthcare providers and insurance companies that are deemed "frivolous" and the reason we pay so much for healthcare (among other things). Seems to me the whole thing is a vicious circle.

[Boiler 45,525]

I have to respectably disagree. I have untold faith in the American people. I really don't think it will be very long and you will see someone that can offer health care in a much better way.

Who has the money to out lobby the current incumbants?

They have invested a lot of money in keeping the status quo, surely they should be rewarded for their investment?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I have to respectably disagree. I have untold faith in the American people. I really don't think it will be very long and you will see someone that can offer health care in a much better way.

Who has the money to out lobby the current incumbants?

They have invested a lot of money in keeping the status quo, surely they should be rewarded for their investment?

Lobbyists have a lot of power, especially when it comes to supporting election campaigns. We'll sponsor you if you say no to:

Restrictions on CO2 emmissions

Private Healthcare reform (let alone public healthcare)

[GaryC 7]

Becca,

I am sorry you think I am so heartless. I really am not. I just believe in personal responsibility. I did what was needed to make sure I had health care. I am no one special. I didn't get some lucky break. I worked hard and planned ahead. But the ones that want socialized medicine want to negate all the work and effort I and everyone else that did the right thing have done. You want to get into my pocket to pay for someone else's health care. That just isn't fair. I will never agree with it. Call me heartless if you want. I call it being responsible for your own life.

P.S.

If you look at some of my other posts I made an exception for those with physical and mental problems that prohibit them from working and getting health care. We already have programs in place for those people. It's called Social Security Disability. They are taken care of.

I don't think you are heartless, Gary. But I sure do think you have a forgotten a thing or two. As I recall, you've had a time or two in your life where you were between jobs. I'll bet you didn't have any health insurance then. Does that mean you still weren't a hard worker? No. Does that mean you weren't responsible for yourself? No. It means you were a victim of circumstance.

I get up and go to work everyday. I don't draw foodstamps. I manage to make my own house payment. I pay my own utilities. I pay all my bills - on time. I have a credit score pushing 800. I am a responsible working mother and wife.

I don't have one drop of health insurance. I haven't had a female exam in two years. I haven't had a mammogram in two years. I wear a pair of eyeglasses that don't really work for me anymore and have one broken earpiece.

Don't you even call me a freeloader.

I haven't forgotten anything. It's more like learning a thing or two the hard way. I raised 3 kids, started out with literally nothing and through my own hard work made it to where I am today.

To answer your question, at no time after my third wedding anniversary were we without some sort insurance. There were times when I bought it myself when it wasn't part of my work. It depends on where your priorities lie. Mine was always to have health care. I turned down jobs because it didn't offer insurance. I did what I had to do for 30 years to make sure I had insurance. At no time did I ask or try to get someone else to help me in ANYTHING. I did it myself because it was important to me. There were times I didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of but I took care of my family. That is my whole point here. If it's important enough to you then you will have it. I am not rich. I don't have a fancy college education. But I made it on my own none the less. When I was 21 years old and fresh out of the Navy I was even homeless and sleeping in an abandoned car. I started from square one. Please don't try to tell me that anything I did couldn't be done by anyone.

[rebeccajo 14]

I can't afford to turn down a job just because it doesn't have health insurance. Not everyone lives in an areas where there are so many choices. I keep working so at least there's food on the table.

NOW, if I DID choose to turn down work just because there were no health insurance, that WOULD make me a freeloader, wouldn't it?

Edited February 9, 2007 by rebeccajo