Liberal Ignorance at its Finest: Gays and Muslim Unite?

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

If right wing Evangelical type Christians ran this country I agree. We may be just as bad

But Marvin we do separate church and state, you are trying to roll on what if's and possible scenarios. The facts are the facts. Most Muslim run countries have a real and serious problem with intolerance and persecution of Gays,Women, other religions you name it.

The problem is, I could hate you all I want here. If I did something about it, i would be breaking the law. In many places is sanctioned by law.

Now before you and the other PC crowd start, I am not saying all Muslim countries or all Muslims, but it is a huge problem.

So how is it fair to compare the two when one separates and the other doesn't? If Muslim countries separated the two and still committed the same atrocities, you'd be right. But since they don't, how can you make an honest comparison? You can only talk about it if the circumstances are the same, but they're not.

It's not a Muslim problem. Look at places like Russia. Try being gay over there and see how that works out. Not a Muslim country. How about Jamaica? Being gay can get you killed. And it's not a Muslim country.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

So how is it fair to compare the two when one separates and the other doesn't? If Muslim countries separated the two and still committed the same atrocities, you'd be right. But since they don't, how can you make an honest comparison? You can only talk about it if the circumstances are the same, but they're not.

It's not a Muslim problem. Look at places like Russia. Try being gay over there and see how that works out. Not a Muslim country. How about Jamaica? Being gay can get you killed. And it's not a Muslim country.

Because we don't allow religious zealots to set law and persecute people in the name of that religious law, we can't argue that we have a better system than those that do, because they are not equal. Absurd

Once again you are trying to justify the bigotry and intersection so problematic in the Muslim world by saying others do it to.

Did mama ever tell you, just because your friends jump off a cliff would you ?

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Because we don't allow religious zealots to set law and persecute people in the name of that religious law, we can't argue that we have a better system than those that do, because they are not equal. Absurd

Once again you are trying to justify the bigotry and intersection so problematic in the Muslim world by saying others do it to.

Did mama ever tell you, just because your friends jump off a cliff would you ?

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out the it's not a Muslim problem. It's a people problem. These issues aren't specific to Islam. They're problematic in Russia. They're problematic in Jamaica. They're problematic in India. Heck, how long ago was it when you couldn't be openly gay here in the states? 30 years ago? What about gays in China, Japan, Korea? Can they marry each other? Do they have the same rights as opposite sex couplets?

Your argument would carry more weight if Islam was the ONLY religion that had these issues. Malaysia, women have the same rights as men. They can drive and vote. They don't have to wear the hijab. Same is Indonesia, Singapore, and some other places. Try being gay in those other countries that aren't ran by Muslims.

Once again, you're ignoring everyone else to focus on Islam. If you're going to condemn it, you'd have to condemn it everywhere, even in the places you don't like to, meaning here as well.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Long, but a good read. Obligatory but insincere apology for great wall of text.

Stop trying to split gays and Muslims

Anti-Islam crusader Pam Geller's effort to foment hate between the two groups is based on lies and doomed to fail

I have an earnest and sincere question for the LGBT community: Do you support Pamela Geller?

Geller, who is one of the most active proponents of anti-Muslim attitudes in the United States, rose to notoriety as one of the key instigators of the Park51 backlash, misrepresenting a proposed Islamic Community Center (think a YMCA or Jewish Community Center) by calling it the Ground Zero mosque and engaging in dishonest rhetoric and blatant fear-mongering. Her organization, Stop the Islamization of America, was identified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights organization, alongside extremist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis. And its earned that label Geller and her allies have dedicated countless hours and millions upon millions of dollars to drum up hatred, fear and xenophobia toward Muslims.

Last week I learned that Geller and one of her biggest allies, Robert Spencer, are hosting a fundraiser for their anti-Muslim advertisements on the website Indiegogo. This disturbed me for a number of reasons, but particularly because Indiegogos terms explicitly prohibit anything promoting hate. (Despite reports from me and many others, Indiegogo has so far declined to remove the fundraiser; if so inclined, you can let them know what you think about that here.)

While I was looking into this, I discovered that Geller recently announced plans to run a series of anti-Muslim advertisements in San Francisco quoting Muslim individuals making anti-LGBT statements. Why? Because members of San Franciscos LGBT community criticized other anti-Muslim ads she has run there.

I tweeted my appreciation that the LGBT community in San Francisco is standing up against her efforts to drive a wedge between LGBT folks and Muslims. Soon after, Geller retweeted me, claiming that she in fact has huge support in Gay community. Immediately, her supporters began to lob insults and even threats at me; Spencer himself suggested that I should be rewarded for supporting Muslims by someone saw[ing] off [my] head. (Meanwhile, though Geller, Spencer and their supporters kept tweeting at me that Muslims hate gays and want to kill me, many Muslim friends and strangers alike tweeted love and support for LGBT equality at me.)

As things settled down, I realized that Geller had stopped responding to me when I requested more information to back up her assertion that she has huge support in Gay community, after the only evidence she provided was a link to a Facebook group with 72 members. Ive since asked her repeatedly for more information, but have not gotten a response.

I couldnt think of a single LGBT person in my life that would support her work, but I didnt want to go off of my own judgment alone. So I started asking around. It wasnt hard to find prominent members of the LGBT community who do not share Gellers views.

The idea that the LGBT community should support Islamophobia is offensive and absurd, said Joseph Ward III, director of Believe Out Loud, an organization that empowers Christians to work for LGBT equality. [American Muslims] are our allies as we share a common struggle to overcome stereotypes and misconceptions in America.

Trying to drive a wedge between the LGBT community and other communities is old, tired and [it] doesnt work, said Ross Murray, director of News and Faith Initiatives for GLAAD. Pitting two communities [like the Muslim and LGBT communities] against one another is an attempt to keep both oppressed. Wedge strategies are offensive and, in the long run, they do not work. Geller is not an LGBT ally shes posing as one because it is convenient to her [anti-Muslim] agenda.

As with any attempts at a wedge, these efforts seek to erase the real and powerful reality of LGBT Muslims and seek to create a false dichotomy: All the LGBT people are non-Muslim/Islamophobic and all the Muslims are straight and homophobic, said Rev. Rebecca Voelkel, program director of the Institute for Welcoming Resources at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. Particularly given the oppression, marginalization, hatred and violence visited upon the LGBTQ community, it is critically important that we use our spiritual, communal and political power to speak out against the victimization and vilification of any other community. As a Christian lesbian, I must stand against any attempts to victimize another because of their personhood.

Theres no doubt that theres a great deal of religion-based bigotry against LGBT people, although its hardly limited to Islam. The Hebrew Scriptures also prescribe the death penalty for some homosexual conduct, but you dont typically see people using this to inflame anti-Semitic or anti-Christian sentiment, said John Corvino, author of Whats Wrong With Homosexuality? and coauthor of Debating Same-Sex Marriage. To single out Muslims in this way is both unhelpful and unfair.

Despite her claim, the work of Geller and her colleagues has plenty of opposition in the LGBT community. Why?

For starters, its wrong.

As Junaid Jahangir writes in a recent piece at the Huffington Post, [Gellers] selective references provide a misguided view of the current Muslim position on ####### rights issues. He rightly notes that her advertisements lift up the views of a controversial Muslim cleric, but ignore the over 2,500 Muslim intellectuals from 23 countries [that] not only called for an international treaty to counter such clerics, but also called for a tribunal set by the United Nations Security Council to put them on trial for inciting violence. In his piece, which is a must-read, Jahangir goes on to quote many influential, pro-equality Muslim leaders. Pointing to the activism they are doing to support LGBT rights, he demonstrates that Geller is unfairly and dangerously presenting a skewed picture of Muslim views on LGBT people.

Theres no question that homophobia is rampant among the worlds 1.5 billion Muslims but that doesnt negate the fact that there are huge groups of Muslims who have easily reconciled their faith and sexual orientation, like LGBT people in other faith communities, said Reza Aslan, author of No God but God and Beyond Fundamentalism, in a recent phone interview. For a woman who leads an organization that has been labeled a hate group to try to reach out to a community like the LGBT community, by trying to make a connection based on bigotry, is harmful and ridiculous. Bigotry is not a bridge.

Of course, members of the LGBT community are right to be concerned about the dangers of religious extremism and totalitarianism whether it is Christian, Muslim or any other expression. But demonizing another community wont help reduce the influence of religious fundamentalism.

You can be honest about your disagreements without being hateful. Im a ####### atheist, and I believe that there are ideas and practices promoted by Muslims in the name of Islam that are not only false theyre extremely harmful. But to rally against Muslims and Islam as if they and it are some monolithic bloc is counterproductive; it creates enemies where we need allies. There are many Muslims who oppose cruelty and violence done in the name of Islam and favor equality for all people, and they are positioned to create change. We should be working with them, not standing against all of Islam. Based on my own experiences, I know that this is a much more constructive approach. In my book Faitheist, I tell several stories about Muslim friends who are not only accepting of my sexual orientation, but are also fierce allies for LGBT equality.

Thats the problem with Gellers advertisements, and with sweeping, generalizing statements about entire groups of people: They dont account for the diversity of ideas and traditions that exist within any given community. Geller focuses on a ridiculously tiny minority of Muslim extremists in order to paint her picture of Islam, and in doing so she neglects to account for the rich and varied traditions of generosity, selflessness, social progress and forgiveness present within Islam. Not only that, but her efforts alienate key allies Muslim and non-Muslim alike who share her concerns about Muslim extremists, but who also recognize that her narrow approach is unfair and dishonest.

Instead of adopting Gellers approach, LGBT people should focus on building relationships. After all, support for marriage equality more than doubles among people who know a gay person. The Pew Research Center reports that of the 14 percent of Americans who changed their mind and decided to support gay marriage in the last decade, 37 percent (the largest category) cited having friends/family/acquaintances who are gay/lesbian as the primary reason. The second largest group in this astounding shift, at 25 percent, said they became more tolerant, learned more and became more aware.

In 2011, I wrote an essay encouraging more cooperation and solidarity between the LGBT community and the Muslim community:

[in 2009], a Gallup poll demonstrated something the LGBTQ community has known for some time: People are significantly more inclined to oppose gay marriage if they do not know anyone who is gay. Similarly, a Time Magazine cover story featured revealing numbers that speak volumes about the correlation between positive relationships and civic support. Per their survey, 46 percent of Americans think Islam is more violent than other faiths and 61 percent oppose Park51, but only 37 percent even know a Muslim American. Another survey, by Pew, reported that 55 percent of Americans know not very much or nothing at all about Islam. The disconnect is clear: When only 37 percent of Americans know a Muslim American, and 55 percent claim to know very little or nothing about Islam, the negative stereotypes about the Muslim community go unchallenged.

The Muslim and LGBTQ communities face common challenges that stem from the same problemthat diverse communities dont have robust and durable civic ties. This is why the Muslim and LGBTQ communities ought to be strong allies.

I continue to believe this, and Gellers work isnt helping. Geller, Spencer, and their supporters are wrong to try to pit the ####### community against Muslims. Their efforts to force a wedge between us and the Muslim community are little more than fear-mongering a tactic that has long been used to keep the LGBT community marginalized and oppressed.

Faisal Alam, a ####### Muslim activist who founded the Al-Fatiha Foundation an organization dedicated to advancing the cause of LGBT Muslims recognizes this intersectionality.

Pamela Gellers attempts to create divisions between LGBT people and Muslim Americans is a losing tactic, said Alam in a recent interview. Muslims who are LGBT stand at the intersections of two marginalized communities. We know firsthand the devastating effects of both homophobia and Islamophobia. And we understand that LGBT and Muslim communities must stand together based on mutual respect and understanding.

In that respect, Geller, Spencer and those who support them seem to have more in common with anti-LGBT fear-mongers than they do with LGBT people and Muslims who are trying to build respect and understanding. Their worldview is more in line with someone like conservative commentator Frank Turek of American Family Radio, who has said that LGBT people and Muslims both hate Western civilization, both hate Judeo-Christian natural law values that our Constitution and particularly our Declaration of Independence were founded on. We should oppose efforts to demonize Muslims as we do those demonizing ####### people, as they ultimately share a common root.

Reza Aslan agrees, and he describes a shift toward greater understanding and cooperation in the Muslim community.

American Muslims young American Muslims in particular are starting to understand that unless they are willing to stand up for all the other oppressed communities in this country, including those discriminated against for their gender or sexuality, then no one will stand up for them, said Aslan. So far from there being a bond between Geller and the oppressed LGBT community, the bond [is] between the LGBT community and American Muslims a community that is facing unprecedented hate and violence in the United States. My hope is that having someone like Pamela Geller trying to create this division will have the opposite effect: That it will bring these two communities, oppressed for different reasons, together to form a bond against all forms of bigotry.

I share in that hope. So instead of donating to Gellers wrongheaded campaign on Indiegogo, I encourage LGBT folks to consider making a donation to Muslims for Progressive Values, which is doing radical work to promote LGBT inclusion.

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/02/stop_trying_to_split_gays_and_muslims/

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Long, but a good read. Obligatory but insincere apology for great wall of text.

Stop trying to split gays and Muslims

Anti-Islam crusader Pam Geller's effort to foment hate between the two groups is based on lies and doomed to fail

I have an earnest and sincere question for the LGBT community: Do you support Pamela Geller?

Geller, who is one of the most active proponents of anti-Muslim attitudes in the United States, rose to notoriety as one of the key instigators of the Park51 backlash, misrepresenting a proposed Islamic Community Center (think a YMCA or Jewish Community Center) by calling it the Ground Zero mosque and engaging in dishonest rhetoric and blatant fear-mongering. Her organization, Stop the Islamization of America, was identified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights organization, alongside extremist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis. And its earned that label Geller and her allies have dedicated countless hours and millions upon millions of dollars to drum up hatred, fear and xenophobia toward Muslims.

Last week I learned that Geller and one of her biggest allies, Robert Spencer, are hosting a fundraiser for their anti-Muslim advertisements on the website Indiegogo. This disturbed me for a number of reasons, but particularly because Indiegogos terms explicitly prohibit anything promoting hate. (Despite reports from me and many others, Indiegogo has so far declined to remove the fundraiser; if so inclined, you can let them know what you think about that here.)

While I was looking into this, I discovered that Geller recently announced plans to run a series of anti-Muslim advertisements in San Francisco quoting Muslim individuals making anti-LGBT statements. Why? Because members of San Franciscos LGBT community criticized other anti-Muslim ads she has run there.

I tweeted my appreciation that the LGBT community in San Francisco is standing up against her efforts to drive a wedge between LGBT folks and Muslims. Soon after, Geller retweeted me, claiming that she in fact has huge support in Gay community. Immediately, her supporters began to lob insults and even threats at me; Spencer himself suggested that I should be rewarded for supporting Muslims by someone saw[ing] off [my] head. (Meanwhile, though Geller, Spencer and their supporters kept tweeting at me that Muslims hate gays and want to kill me, many Muslim friends and strangers alike tweeted love and support for LGBT equality at me.)

As things settled down, I realized that Geller had stopped responding to me when I requested more information to back up her assertion that she has huge support in Gay community, after the only evidence she provided was a link to a Facebook group with 72 members. Ive since asked her repeatedly for more information, but have not gotten a response.

I couldnt think of a single LGBT person in my life that would support her work, but I didnt want to go off of my own judgment alone. So I started asking around. It wasnt hard to find prominent members of the LGBT community who do not share Gellers views.

The idea that the LGBT community should support Islamophobia is offensive and absurd, said Joseph Ward III, director of Believe Out Loud, an organization that empowers Christians to work for LGBT equality. [American Muslims] are our allies as we share a common struggle to overcome stereotypes and misconceptions in America.

Trying to drive a wedge between the LGBT community and other communities is old, tired and [it] doesnt work, said Ross Murray, director of News and Faith Initiatives for GLAAD. Pitting two communities [like the Muslim and LGBT communities] against one another is an attempt to keep both oppressed. Wedge strategies are offensive and, in the long run, they do not work. Geller is not an LGBT ally shes posing as one because it is convenient to her [anti-Muslim] agenda.

As with any attempts at a wedge, these efforts seek to erase the real and powerful reality of LGBT Muslims and seek to create a false dichotomy: All the LGBT people are non-Muslim/Islamophobic and all the Muslims are straight and homophobic, said Rev. Rebecca Voelkel, program director of the Institute for Welcoming Resources at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. Particularly given the oppression, marginalization, hatred and violence visited upon the LGBTQ community, it is critically important that we use our spiritual, communal and political power to speak out against the victimization and vilification of any other community. As a Christian lesbian, I must stand against any attempts to victimize another because of their personhood.

Theres no doubt that theres a great deal of religion-based bigotry against LGBT people, although its hardly limited to Islam. The Hebrew Scriptures also prescribe the death penalty for some homosexual conduct, but you dont typically see people using this to inflame anti-Semitic or anti-Christian sentiment, said John Corvino, author of Whats Wrong With Homosexuality? and coauthor of Debating Same-Sex Marriage. To single out Muslims in this way is both unhelpful and unfair.

Despite her claim, the work of Geller and her colleagues has plenty of opposition in the LGBT community. Why?

For starters, its wrong.

As Junaid Jahangir writes in a recent piece at the Huffington Post, [Gellers] selective references provide a misguided view of the current Muslim position on ####### rights issues. He rightly notes that her advertisements lift up the views of a controversial Muslim cleric, but ignore the over 2,500 Muslim intellectuals from 23 countries [that] not only called for an international treaty to counter such clerics, but also called for a tribunal set by the United Nations Security Council to put them on trial for inciting violence. In his piece, which is a must-read, Jahangir goes on to quote many influential, pro-equality Muslim leaders. Pointing to the activism they are doing to support LGBT rights, he demonstrates that Geller is unfairly and dangerously presenting a skewed picture of Muslim views on LGBT people.

Theres no question that homophobia is rampant among the worlds 1.5 billion Muslims but that doesnt negate the fact that there are huge groups of Muslims who have easily reconciled their faith and sexual orientation, like LGBT people in other faith communities, said Reza Aslan, author of No God but God and Beyond Fundamentalism, in a recent phone interview. For a woman who leads an organization that has been labeled a hate group to try to reach out to a community like the LGBT community, by trying to make a connection based on bigotry, is harmful and ridiculous. Bigotry is not a bridge.

Of course, members of the LGBT community are right to be concerned about the dangers of religious extremism and totalitarianism whether it is Christian, Muslim or any other expression. But demonizing another community wont help reduce the influence of religious fundamentalism.

You can be honest about your disagreements without being hateful. Im a ####### atheist, and I believe that there are ideas and practices promoted by Muslims in the name of Islam that are not only false theyre extremely harmful. But to rally against Muslims and Islam as if they and it are some monolithic bloc is counterproductive; it creates enemies where we need allies. There are many Muslims who oppose cruelty and violence done in the name of Islam and favor equality for all people, and they are positioned to create change. We should be working with them, not standing against all of Islam. Based on my own experiences, I know that this is a much more constructive approach. In my book Faitheist, I tell several stories about Muslim friends who are not only accepting of my sexual orientation, but are also fierce allies for LGBT equality.

Thats the problem with Gellers advertisements, and with sweeping, generalizing statements about entire groups of people: They dont account for the diversity of ideas and traditions that exist within any given community. Geller focuses on a ridiculously tiny minority of Muslim extremists in order to paint her picture of Islam, and in doing so she neglects to account for the rich and varied traditions of generosity, selflessness, social progress and forgiveness present within Islam. Not only that, but her efforts alienate key allies Muslim and non-Muslim alike who share her concerns about Muslim extremists, but who also recognize that her narrow approach is unfair and dishonest.

Instead of adopting Gellers approach, LGBT people should focus on building relationships. After all, support for marriage equality more than doubles among people who know a gay person. The Pew Research Center reports that of the 14 percent of Americans who changed their mind and decided to support gay marriage in the last decade, 37 percent (the largest category) cited having friends/family/acquaintances who are gay/lesbian as the primary reason. The second largest group in this astounding shift, at 25 percent, said they became more tolerant, learned more and became more aware.

In 2011, I wrote an essay encouraging more cooperation and solidarity between the LGBT community and the Muslim community:

[in 2009], a Gallup poll demonstrated something the LGBTQ community has known for some time: People are significantly more inclined to oppose gay marriage if they do not know anyone who is gay. Similarly, a Time Magazine cover story featured revealing numbers that speak volumes about the correlation between positive relationships and civic support. Per their survey, 46 percent of Americans think Islam is more violent than other faiths and 61 percent oppose Park51, but only 37 percent even know a Muslim American. Another survey, by Pew, reported that 55 percent of Americans know not very much or nothing at all about Islam. The disconnect is clear: When only 37 percent of Americans know a Muslim American, and 55 percent claim to know very little or nothing about Islam, the negative stereotypes about the Muslim community go unchallenged.

The Muslim and LGBTQ communities face common challenges that stem from the same problemthat diverse communities dont have robust and durable civic ties. This is why the Muslim and LGBTQ communities ought to be strong allies.

I continue to believe this, and Gellers work isnt helping. Geller, Spencer, and their supporters are wrong to try to pit the ####### community against Muslims. Their efforts to force a wedge between us and the Muslim community are little more than fear-mongering a tactic that has long been used to keep the LGBT community marginalized and oppressed.

Faisal Alam, a ####### Muslim activist who founded the Al-Fatiha Foundation an organization dedicated to advancing the cause of LGBT Muslims recognizes this intersectionality.

Pamela Gellers attempts to create divisions between LGBT people and Muslim Americans is a losing tactic, said Alam in a recent interview. Muslims who are LGBT stand at the intersections of two marginalized communities. We know firsthand the devastating effects of both homophobia and Islamophobia. And we understand that LGBT and Muslim communities must stand together based on mutual respect and understanding.

In that respect, Geller, Spencer and those who support them seem to have more in common with anti-LGBT fear-mongers than they do with LGBT people and Muslims who are trying to build respect and understanding. Their worldview is more in line with someone like conservative commentator Frank Turek of American Family Radio, who has said that LGBT people and Muslims both hate Western civilization, both hate Judeo-Christian natural law values that our Constitution and particularly our Declaration of Independence were founded on. We should oppose efforts to demonize Muslims as we do those demonizing ####### people, as they ultimately share a common root.

Reza Aslan agrees, and he describes a shift toward greater understanding and cooperation in the Muslim community.

American Muslims young American Muslims in particular are starting to understand that unless they are willing to stand up for all the other oppressed communities in this country, including those discriminated against for their gender or sexuality, then no one will stand up for them, said Aslan. So far from there being a bond between Geller and the oppressed LGBT community, the bond [is] between the LGBT community and American Muslims a community that is facing unprecedented hate and violence in the United States. My hope is that having someone like Pamela Geller trying to create this division will have the opposite effect: That it will bring these two communities, oppressed for different reasons, together to form a bond against all forms of bigotry.

I share in that hope. So instead of donating to Gellers wrongheaded campaign on Indiegogo, I encourage LGBT folks to consider making a donation to Muslims for Progressive Values, which is doing radical work to promote LGBT inclusion.

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/02/stop_trying_to_split_gays_and_muslims/

I stand with you sister.

[decocker 7,198]

So does Islam have a huge problem with homophobia and are Homosexuals severely persecuted in many countries ruled by Sharai law ?

Before you answer. Yes we know other religions have a homophobia problem and not all Muslims persecute gays

can you answer the question ?

yes, we have a problem we homophobia. i don't see a point in dissecting the sources, because it comes from all types.

the question has been answered, for whatever reason you're not getting the answer you want.

[Karee 4,191]

Long, but a good read. Obligatory but insincere apology for great wall of text.

Stop trying to split gays and Muslims

Anti-Islam crusader Pam Geller's effort to foment hate between the two groups is based on lies and doomed to fail

I have an earnest and sincere question for the LGBT community: Do you support Pamela Geller?

Geller, who is one of the most active proponents of anti-Muslim attitudes in the United States, rose to notoriety as one of the key instigators of the Park51 backlash, misrepresenting a proposed Islamic Community Center (think a YMCA or Jewish Community Center) by calling it the Ground Zero mosque and engaging in dishonest rhetoric and blatant fear-mongering. Her organization, Stop the Islamization of America, was identified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights organization, alongside extremist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis. And its earned that label Geller and her allies have dedicated countless hours and millions upon millions of dollars to drum up hatred, fear and xenophobia toward Muslims.

Last week I learned that Geller and one of her biggest allies, Robert Spencer, are hosting a fundraiser for their anti-Muslim advertisements on the website Indiegogo. This disturbed me for a number of reasons, but particularly because Indiegogos terms explicitly prohibit anything promoting hate. (Despite reports from me and many others, Indiegogo has so far declined to remove the fundraiser; if so inclined, you can let them know what you think about that here.)

While I was looking into this, I discovered that Geller recently announced plans to run a series of anti-Muslim advertisements in San Francisco quoting Muslim individuals making anti-LGBT statements. Why? Because members of San Franciscos LGBT community criticized other anti-Muslim ads she has run there.

I tweeted my appreciation that the LGBT community in San Francisco is standing up against her efforts to drive a wedge between LGBT folks and Muslims. Soon after, Geller retweeted me, claiming that she in fact has huge support in Gay community. Immediately, her supporters began to lob insults and even threats at me; Spencer himself suggested that I should be rewarded for supporting Muslims by someone saw[ing] off [my] head. (Meanwhile, though Geller, Spencer and their supporters kept tweeting at me that Muslims hate gays and want to kill me, many Muslim friends and strangers alike tweeted love and support for LGBT equality at me.)

As things settled down, I realized that Geller had stopped responding to me when I requested more information to back up her assertion that she has huge support in Gay community, after the only evidence she provided was a link to a Facebook group with 72 members. Ive since asked her repeatedly for more information, but have not gotten a response.

I couldnt think of a single LGBT person in my life that would support her work, but I didnt want to go off of my own judgment alone. So I started asking around. It wasnt hard to find prominent members of the LGBT community who do not share Gellers views.

The idea that the LGBT community should support Islamophobia is offensive and absurd, said Joseph Ward III, director of Believe Out Loud, an organization that empowers Christians to work for LGBT equality. [American Muslims] are our allies as we share a common struggle to overcome stereotypes and misconceptions in America.

Trying to drive a wedge between the LGBT community and other communities is old, tired and [it] doesnt work, said Ross Murray, director of News and Faith Initiatives for GLAAD. Pitting two communities [like the Muslim and LGBT communities] against one another is an attempt to keep both oppressed. Wedge strategies are offensive and, in the long run, they do not work. Geller is not an LGBT ally shes posing as one because it is convenient to her [anti-Muslim] agenda.

As with any attempts at a wedge, these efforts seek to erase the real and powerful reality of LGBT Muslims and seek to create a false dichotomy: All the LGBT people are non-Muslim/Islamophobic and all the Muslims are straight and homophobic, said Rev. Rebecca Voelkel, program director of the Institute for Welcoming Resources at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. Particularly given the oppression, marginalization, hatred and violence visited upon the LGBTQ community, it is critically important that we use our spiritual, communal and political power to speak out against the victimization and vilification of any other community. As a Christian lesbian, I must stand against any attempts to victimize another because of their personhood.

Theres no doubt that theres a great deal of religion-based bigotry against LGBT people, although its hardly limited to Islam. The Hebrew Scriptures also prescribe the death penalty for some homosexual conduct, but you dont typically see people using this to inflame anti-Semitic or anti-Christian sentiment, said John Corvino, author of Whats Wrong With Homosexuality? and coauthor of Debating Same-Sex Marriage. To single out Muslims in this way is both unhelpful and unfair.

Despite her claim, the work of Geller and her colleagues has plenty of opposition in the LGBT community. Why?

For starters, its wrong.

As Junaid Jahangir writes in a recent piece at the Huffington Post, [Gellers] selective references provide a misguided view of the current Muslim position on ####### rights issues. He rightly notes that her advertisements lift up the views of a controversial Muslim cleric, but ignore the over 2,500 Muslim intellectuals from 23 countries [that] not only called for an international treaty to counter such clerics, but also called for a tribunal set by the United Nations Security Council to put them on trial for inciting violence. In his piece, which is a must-read, Jahangir goes on to quote many influential, pro-equality Muslim leaders. Pointing to the activism they are doing to support LGBT rights, he demonstrates that Geller is unfairly and dangerously presenting a skewed picture of Muslim views on LGBT people.

Theres no question that homophobia is rampant among the worlds 1.5 billion Muslims but that doesnt negate the fact that there are huge groups of Muslims who have easily reconciled their faith and sexual orientation, like LGBT people in other faith communities, said Reza Aslan, author of No God but God and Beyond Fundamentalism, in a recent phone interview. For a woman who leads an organization that has been labeled a hate group to try to reach out to a community like the LGBT community, by trying to make a connection based on bigotry, is harmful and ridiculous. Bigotry is not a bridge.

Of course, members of the LGBT community are right to be concerned about the dangers of religious extremism and totalitarianism whether it is Christian, Muslim or any other expression. But demonizing another community wont help reduce the influence of religious fundamentalism.

You can be honest about your disagreements without being hateful. Im a ####### atheist, and I believe that there are ideas and practices promoted by Muslims in the name of Islam that are not only false theyre extremely harmful. But to rally against Muslims and Islam as if they and it are some monolithic bloc is counterproductive; it creates enemies where we need allies. There are many Muslims who oppose cruelty and violence done in the name of Islam and favor equality for all people, and they are positioned to create change. We should be working with them, not standing against all of Islam. Based on my own experiences, I know that this is a much more constructive approach. In my book Faitheist, I tell several stories about Muslim friends who are not only accepting of my sexual orientation, but are also fierce allies for LGBT equality.

Thats the problem with Gellers advertisements, and with sweeping, generalizing statements about entire groups of people: They dont account for the diversity of ideas and traditions that exist within any given community. Geller focuses on a ridiculously tiny minority of Muslim extremists in order to paint her picture of Islam, and in doing so she neglects to account for the rich and varied traditions of generosity, selflessness, social progress and forgiveness present within Islam. Not only that, but her efforts alienate key allies Muslim and non-Muslim alike who share her concerns about Muslim extremists, but who also recognize that her narrow approach is unfair and dishonest.

Instead of adopting Gellers approach, LGBT people should focus on building relationships. After all, support for marriage equality more than doubles among people who know a gay person. The Pew Research Center reports that of the 14 percent of Americans who changed their mind and decided to support gay marriage in the last decade, 37 percent (the largest category) cited having friends/family/acquaintances who are gay/lesbian as the primary reason. The second largest group in this astounding shift, at 25 percent, said they became more tolerant, learned more and became more aware.

In 2011, I wrote an essay encouraging more cooperation and solidarity between the LGBT community and the Muslim community:

[in 2009], a Gallup poll demonstrated something the LGBTQ community has known for some time: People are significantly more inclined to oppose gay marriage if they do not know anyone who is gay. Similarly, a Time Magazine cover story featured revealing numbers that speak volumes about the correlation between positive relationships and civic support. Per their survey, 46 percent of Americans think Islam is more violent than other faiths and 61 percent oppose Park51, but only 37 percent even know a Muslim American. Another survey, by Pew, reported that 55 percent of Americans know not very much or nothing at all about Islam. The disconnect is clear: When only 37 percent of Americans know a Muslim American, and 55 percent claim to know very little or nothing about Islam, the negative stereotypes about the Muslim community go unchallenged.

The Muslim and LGBTQ communities face common challenges that stem from the same problemthat diverse communities dont have robust and durable civic ties. This is why the Muslim and LGBTQ communities ought to be strong allies.

I continue to believe this, and Gellers work isnt helping. Geller, Spencer, and their supporters are wrong to try to pit the ####### community against Muslims. Their efforts to force a wedge between us and the Muslim community are little more than fear-mongering a tactic that has long been used to keep the LGBT community marginalized and oppressed.

Faisal Alam, a ####### Muslim activist who founded the Al-Fatiha Foundation an organization dedicated to advancing the cause of LGBT Muslims recognizes this intersectionality.

Pamela Gellers attempts to create divisions between LGBT people and Muslim Americans is a losing tactic, said Alam in a recent interview. Muslims who are LGBT stand at the intersections of two marginalized communities. We know firsthand the devastating effects of both homophobia and Islamophobia. And we understand that LGBT and Muslim communities must stand together based on mutual respect and understanding.

In that respect, Geller, Spencer and those who support them seem to have more in common with anti-LGBT fear-mongers than they do with LGBT people and Muslims who are trying to build respect and understanding. Their worldview is more in line with someone like conservative commentator Frank Turek of American Family Radio, who has said that LGBT people and Muslims both hate Western civilization, both hate Judeo-Christian natural law values that our Constitution and particularly our Declaration of Independence were founded on. We should oppose efforts to demonize Muslims as we do those demonizing ####### people, as they ultimately share a common root.

Reza Aslan agrees, and he describes a shift toward greater understanding and cooperation in the Muslim community.

American Muslims young American Muslims in particular are starting to understand that unless they are willing to stand up for all the other oppressed communities in this country, including those discriminated against for their gender or sexuality, then no one will stand up for them, said Aslan. So far from there being a bond between Geller and the oppressed LGBT community, the bond [is] between the LGBT community and American Muslims a community that is facing unprecedented hate and violence in the United States. My hope is that having someone like Pamela Geller trying to create this division will have the opposite effect: That it will bring these two communities, oppressed for different reasons, together to form a bond against all forms of bigotry.

I share in that hope. So instead of donating to Gellers wrongheaded campaign on Indiegogo, I encourage LGBT folks to consider making a donation to Muslims for Progressive Values, which is doing radical work to promote LGBT inclusion.

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/02/stop_trying_to_split_gays_and_muslims/

I saw Pamela Geller and stopped reading.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

yes, we have a problem we homophobia. i don't see a point in dissecting the sources, because it comes from all types.

the question has been answered, for whatever reason you're not getting the answer you want.

The answer is there's a problem in Islam. The other religions that have the SAME issue aren't important. Does that clear it up for you?

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

The answer is there's a problem in Islam. The other religions that have the SAME issue aren't important. Does that clear it up for you?

By the topic is Gays wanting to unite with Islam, which does not want any part of them. Yes other religions have gay intolerance, but if the only defense you have of a subject is to point to what someone else is doing, then you have no defense.

It's like trying to defend a murder case by pointing out other people have murdered also.

The fact remains there are 10 countries in which homosexuals can legaly be put to death.. See if you can find a thing common to them all

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/02/24/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death/

Here are the 10 countries where homosexuality may be punishable by death:

Yemen: According to 1994 penal code, married men can be sentenced to death by stoning for homosexual intercourse. Unmarried men face whipping or one year in prison. Women face up to seven years in prison.

Iran: In accordance with sharia law, homosexual intercourse between men can be punished by death, and men can be flogged for lesser acts such as kissing. Women may be flogged.

Iraq: The penal code does not expressly prohibit homosexual acts, but people have been killed by militias and sentenced to death by judges citing sharia law.

Mauritania: Muslim men engaging in homosexual sex can be stoned to death, according to a 1984 law. Women face prison.

Nigeria: Federal law classifies homosexual behavior as a felony punishable by imprisonment, but several states have adopted sharia law and imposed a death penalty for men. A law signed in early January makes it illegal for gay people countrywide to hold a meeting or form clubs.

Qatar: Sharia law in Qatar applies only to Muslims, who can be put to death for extramarital sex, regardless of sexual orientation.

Saudi Arabia: Under the country’s interpretation of sharia law, a married man engaging in sodomy or any non-Muslim who commits sodomy with a Muslim can be stoned to death. All sex outside of marriage is illegal.

Somalia: The penal code stipulates prison, but in some southern regions, Islamic courts have imposed Sharia law and the death penalty.

Sudan: Three-time offenders under the sodomy law can be put to death; first and second convictions result in flogging and imprisonment. Southern parts of the country have adopted more lenient laws.

United Arab Emirates: Lawyers in the country and other experts disagree on whether federal law proscribes the death penalty for consensual homosexual sex or only for rape. In a recent Amnesty International report, the organization said it was not aware of any death sentences for homosexual acts. All sexual acts outside of marriage are banned.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Spluttering over and over about what countries have death penalties for being gay is a deflection, no one's more aware of those realities than millions of gay Muslims. Clearly it's about more than the OP could ever grasp. I'd like to know when exactly the OP became any kind of source for what Islam wants, what gays want, what both groups stand to gain from each other's support, and what to do with the concept of real life gay Muslims, and their 1400+ year existence. Just because the OP can't wrap his head around it doesn't make it any less of a thing.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

By the topic is Gays wanting to unite with Islam, which does not want any part of them. Yes other religions have gay intolerance, but if the only defense you have of a subject is to point to what someone else is doing, then you have no defense.

It's like trying to defend a murder case by pointing out other people have murdered also.

The fact remains there are 10 countries in which homosexuals can legaly be put to death.. See if you can find a thing common to them all

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/02/24/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death/

Here are the 10 countries where homosexuality may be punishable by death:

Yemen: According to 1994 penal code, married men can be sentenced to death by stoning for homosexual intercourse. Unmarried men face whipping or one year in prison. Women face up to seven years in prison.

Iran: In accordance with sharia law, homosexual intercourse between men can be punished by death, and men can be flogged for lesser acts such as kissing. Women may be flogged.

Iraq: The penal code does not expressly prohibit homosexual acts, but people have been killed by militias and sentenced to death by judges citing sharia law.

Mauritania: Muslim men engaging in homosexual sex can be stoned to death, according to a 1984 law. Women face prison.

Nigeria: Federal law classifies homosexual behavior as a felony punishable by imprisonment, but several states have adopted sharia law and imposed a death penalty for men. A law signed in early January makes it illegal for gay people countrywide to hold a meeting or form clubs.

Qatar: Sharia law in Qatar applies only to Muslims, who can be put to death for extramarital sex, regardless of sexual orientation.

Saudi Arabia: Under the country’s interpretation of sharia law, a married man engaging in sodomy or any non-Muslim who commits sodomy with a Muslim can be stoned to death. All sex outside of marriage is illegal.

Somalia: The penal code stipulates prison, but in some southern regions, Islamic courts have imposed Sharia law and the death penalty.

Sudan: Three-time offenders under the sodomy law can be put to death; first and second convictions result in flogging and imprisonment. Southern parts of the country have adopted more lenient laws.

United Arab Emirates: Lawyers in the country and other experts disagree on whether federal law proscribes the death penalty for consensual homosexual sex or only for rape. In a recent Amnesty International report, the organization said it was not aware of any death sentences for homosexual acts. All sexual acts outside of marriage are banned.

What does the bible say about homosexuality? What are the penalties for adultery? Or having sex before marriage?

You're trying to paint Islam as being Homophobic. And yet, you're again ignoring that the bible says the same thing. We had to write laws to protect gay people since they were being killed here in America. Remember Matthew Sheppard?

Islam is no more violent than Christianity. The difference is, over there they follow the Quran to the letter. Here, we don't. If we followed the bible to the letter, we'd implement the same rules they have over there.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Marvin and Su

[B_J 2,752]

I don't think the topic is "How Bad Islam Is"; I think it's "How Inconsistent (Some) Liberals Are".

Yes, there is a lot of overlap between the beliefs of Islam and the beliefs of Christianity concerning the gays. But I think NB's issue is that those on the left (some, but not all) enjoy ripping on Christianity but give a pass to Islam. Others in the country may not give a pass to Islam; but some on the left certainly do.

It's really not fair either; because all Christians are really nice people and we deserve the admiration of others. But those Muslims are just mean.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

I don't think the topic is "How Bad Islam Is"; I think it's "How Inconsistent (Some) Liberals Are".

Yes, there is a lot of overlap between the beliefs of Islam and the beliefs of Christianity concerning the gays. But I think NB's issue is that those on the left (some, but not all) enjoy ripping on Christianity but give a pass to Islam. Others in the country may not give a pass to Islam; but some on the left certainly do.

It's really not fair either; because all Christians are really nice people and we deserve the admiration of others. But those Muslims are just mean.

The issue here is context.

In this country, Christianity is the majority here. If Islam was in charge and the same things happened then there should be outrage. But let's look at this for what it is. Are there Muslim businesses here that are trying to deny gay people services? Are there Muslims trying to pass laws that discriminate against gay people? You might have a few that have attacked gay people, but if you want to look at the numbers, I'd bet more "Christians" have persecuted gay people here than anyone professing to be of the Muslim faith.

Liberals aren't giving Islam a pass, they're focusing on the majority here in America. Because a large group of Muslims aren't doing these things here. It's the same thing that NB is talking about reversed. The argument is let's look to Islam in countries where Sharia law is in effect. So we can be judged by what happening in another country rather than look at the bigotry and hatred in our own back yard committed by Americans. Because that makes sense.

[B_J 2,752]

The issue here is context.

In this country, Christianity is the majority here. If Islam was in charge and the same things happened then there should be outrage. But let's look at this for what it is. Are there Muslim businesses here that are trying to deny gay people services? Are there Muslims trying to pass laws that discriminate against gay people? You might have a few that have attacked gay people, but if you want to look at the numbers, I'd bet more "Christians" have persecuted gay people here than anyone professing to be of the Muslim faith.

Liberals aren't giving Islam a pass, they're focusing on the majority here in America. Because a large group of Muslims aren't doing these things here. It's the same thing that NB is talking about reversed. The argument is let's look to Islam in countries where Sharia law is in effect. So we can be judged by what happening in another country rather than look at the bigotry and hatred in our own back yard committed by Americans. Because that makes sense.

While I agree that we should focus more on this country, it is not uncommon for us to pay attention to other countries.

I remember when I was younger, there was a lot of attention given to South Africa and apartheid ( I Ain't Gonna Play Sun City ) There just hasn't been as much outrage on the left for gay rights, or women's rights, in these current situations. There has been some, but not enough in my opinion.

And you need to quit trying to change this conversation to Christians. It's not about us and anyway, we're the good guys.

[eieio 1,594]

But I think NB's issue is that those on the left (some, but not all) enjoy ripping on Christianity but give a pass to Islam.

Exactly. In simple terms I see it this way. Christians and Muslims are enemies, Liberals and Christians are enemies.Muslims and Liberals are enemies……yet the Liberals try to unite with Muslims because they hate Christians more.

This applies more to the beliefs rather than individuals….however there is some overlap.