Interesting article on arguing and relationships

[one...two...tree 2,762]

There should be a sign taped to the refrigerator of every home and on the boss's door in every place of employment. the sign should read PLEASE ARGUE WITH ME. The art of argument is the art of living. Argument is the affirmation of our being. It is the principal instrument of human interaction.

In the end, argument is not always combat conducted with words. It is often more like intercourse--an activity most satisfying and valuable when both parties join in.

I once believed, as most do, that arguments are to be won, the opponent pummeled into submission and silenced. You can imagine how that idea played at home. If, in accordance with such a definition, I won an argument, I began to lose the relationship. Winning an argument merely meant that I had won the right to live in silence with the woman and children I loved.

Argument is not the process by which we seek to destroy the Other. Argument is a tool with which we can achieve an end, fulfill a desire. It is the incomparable art by which we connect and interact successfully with the Other. Thus successful argument can never be a verbal bludgeon with which we beat the Other to surrender. Winning is getting what we want, which often includes assisting others in getting what they want.

If I were required to choose the single most essential skill from the many that make up the art of argument, it would be the ability to listen. Listening is the ability to hear what people are saying, or not saying, as distinguished from the words they enunciate. Let me give you an example of listening for what is not said:

"How do we feel about a widow who is asking for money for the death of her husband?" I once asked a prospective juror in a case in which I represented the widow. "I don't know," the juror replied. That did not mean that the juror didn't know. It meant he didn't feel comfortable telling me. If he felt all right about money for justice, he would have said, "I feel fine about it."

Did he have some feeling about this kind of a lawsuit? "Not really," the juror replied. "Not really" did not mean not really. It meant probably. The juror did not want to get into a public argument with the likes of me. If he were at home, he would have said something quite different. I followed with this question: "If you were home discussing this case with your wife, is it possible you might say something like this: "I don't think people should sue for their dead husbands. All the money in the world can't bring them back. I think those lawsuits are wrong.'?"

"I don't talk about things like this with my wife," he replied. Now he was obviously refusing to answer the question at hand.

"If you and I were best friends and were talking about this case over a beer, what would you tell me?"

"I don't drink beer."

"How about coffee?" I gave him a big friendly smile to assure him I wasn't wanting to push him around.

Suddenly the juror blurted it out, "My father was killed and my mother never got a cent." There it was! You could immediately feel all the pain--a boy without a father, a mother struggling to rear her family alone.

"It must have been pretty hard on your mother trying to raise a family by herself." (The words "it must have been" are magical words that say to the Other, "I understand how it was' "

"You bet." Now the juror and I were on the same side.

"And it must have been hard to grow up without a father."

He looked down at his hands.

"If you could have the power as a boy to get help for your mother, would you do so?"

"Sure, I did everything I could for her."

"Is it all right with you if I try to help Mrs. Richardson get justice in this case for herself and her children?"

"Yes," he said. And that was the end of the magical product of listening.

Every argument, in court or out, whether delivered over the supper table or made at coffee break, can be reduced to a story. Before we can tell an effective story to the Other, we must first visualize the picture ourselves. Begin to think in story form.

- Gerry Spence, Psychology Today

Edited January 26, 2007 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

the author probably don't get any at home if he follows that logic

[one...two...tree 2,762]

the author probably don't get any at home if he follows that logic

He's a lawyer so he probably doesn't need to.

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

the author probably don't get any at home if he follows that logic

He's a lawyer so he probably doesn't need to.

i thought being a lawyer was a form of birth control anyways

[JenT 0]

Interesting. I just had an argument with my ex's wife this week.... she's been trying to assert herself as STEPMOTHER with me for the last year and a half (she has no children of her own and my ex is not likely to give her any), and I've been quiet until this week when she crossed the line. I was very proud of myself about remaining calm and talking in an even-keel. She was the one who attacked my character first ("Obviously, I've given you too much credit for being a kind and decent human being") but I ignored that and just said, "Well, obviously you're a better person than I am but that's not the point," and went back to the point. She continued to push and push. I didn't give in.

Been thinking about posting here to discuss issues with ex's spouses, but I haven't yet.... it's really not what this board is about...

Anyway.... she stormed off in a huff.

And the kicker is, she is a psychologist.

Ha.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Interesting. I just had an argument with my ex's wife this week.... she's been trying to assert herself as STEPMOTHER with me for the last year and a half (she has no children of her own and my ex is not likely to give her any), and I've been quiet until this week when she crossed the line. I was very proud of myself about remaining calm and talking in an even-keel. She was the one who attacked my character first ("Obviously, I've given you too much credit for being a kind and decent human being") but I ignored that and just said, "Well, obviously you're a better person than I am but that's not the point," and went back to the point. She continued to push and push. I didn't give in.

Been thinking about posting here to discuss issues with ex's spouses, but I haven't yet.... it's really not what this board is about...

Anyway.... she stormed off in a huff.

And the kicker is, she is a psychologist.

Ha.

Does she just call out of the blue? What is her reason for communicating with you two, especially if they have no children?

[JenT 0]

Interesting. I just had an argument with my ex's wife this week.... she's been trying to assert herself as STEPMOTHER with me for the last year and a half (she has no children of her own and my ex is not likely to give her any), and I've been quiet until this week when she crossed the line. I was very proud of myself about remaining calm and talking in an even-keel. She was the one who attacked my character first ("Obviously, I've given you too much credit for being a kind and decent human being") but I ignored that and just said, "Well, obviously you're a better person than I am but that's not the point," and went back to the point. She continued to push and push. I didn't give in.

Been thinking about posting here to discuss issues with ex's spouses, but I haven't yet.... it's really not what this board is about...

Anyway.... she stormed off in a huff.

And the kicker is, she is a psychologist.

Ha.

Does she just call out of the blue? What is her reason for communicating with you two, especially if they have no children?

My ex and I share custody, 2 wks each time. Ex and I have been very amicable, sharing the same parenting values, flexible with schedules, putting the kids first and all that. Kids are happy and well-adjusted. They like their stepmother, even though she tries too hard to 'be their best friend'. She doesn't have children of her own and so she has asserted herself with me at every opportunity. For example, last year, first parent teacher conference after their marriage (3 months later), my ex was away on a business trip. I told him that I had to reskd the conference due to a conflict at work and he asked me to let his wife know when it was as she was attending 'in his place'. That was my first clue that she was manipulating him. Anyway, I honored his request, and she showed up late, after the conference had started (mind you, my daughter was there too), walked in very assertively, stuck her hand in the teacher's face and said, "Hi, I'm Jill Smith, Ann's stepmother." (names changed) The teacher looked at me with a 'look' and I gave her an "I'm sorry" look and we continued the conference. Upon leaving, I had to stay to talk to the teacher about some stuff (I was head room parent). She hovered and when we all walked out, she walked behind me to force my daughter to choose who to walk with. My daughter is too kind-hearted to make a choice, so she tried to walk in between us. So much ####### like that, it's ridiculous.

We celebrate the kids' birthdays together and some holidays. She asserts herself in my house as if it were hers. Too many examples to mention. Until this week, I was silent about it all for the kids' sake. But she pushed me to my breaking point when she tried to contact me to determine who was going to be the 'family representative' at my daughter's high school meeting to discuss curriculum planning. Again, my ex was out of town and he had plenty of advance notice to ask ME whether I was going to the meeting or not... I refused to answer her attempts to contact me, so of course, she attended the meeting and confronted me about my non-responsiveness. She could have 'scheduled patients if she knew I was going to be there'. I finally told her that my ex and I were co-parenting and that I was only going to work with him on scheduling issues, arrangements, etc... When I didn't waiver from that, she challenged my character as I described above and we had quite the 'discussion'. David was there and witnessed the whole thing.

I have absolutely no problem with her being involved for the kids' sake... she needs to develop a relationship with them too... but not at my expense. She doesn't know her boundaries, which is unbelieveable. She's supposed to know better being a psychologist, right?

Sorry for the long-winded response, but you asked

Edited January 26, 2007 by JenT

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Interesting. I just had an argument with my ex's wife this week.... she's been trying to assert herself as STEPMOTHER with me for the last year and a half (she has no children of her own and my ex is not likely to give her any), and I've been quiet until this week when she crossed the line. I was very proud of myself about remaining calm and talking in an even-keel. She was the one who attacked my character first ("Obviously, I've given you too much credit for being a kind and decent human being") but I ignored that and just said, "Well, obviously you're a better person than I am but that's not the point," and went back to the point. She continued to push and push. I didn't give in.

Been thinking about posting here to discuss issues with ex's spouses, but I haven't yet.... it's really not what this board is about...

Anyway.... she stormed off in a huff.

And the kicker is, she is a psychologist.

Ha.

Does she just call out of the blue? What is her reason for communicating with you two, especially if they have no children?

My ex and I share custody, 2 wks each time. Ex and I have been very amicable, sharing the same parenting values, flexible with schedules, putting the kids first and all that. Kids are happy and well-adjusted. They like their stepmother, even though she tries too hard to 'be their best friend'. She doesn't have children of her own and so she has asserted herself with me at every opportunity. For example, last year, first parent teacher conference after their marriage (3 months later), my ex was away on a business trip. I told him that I had to reskd the conference due to a conflict at work and he asked me to let his wife know when it was as she was attending 'in his place'. That was my first clue that she was manipulating him. Anyway, I honored his request, and she showed up late, after the conference had started (mind you, my daughter was there too), walked in very assertively, stuck her hand in the teacher's face and said, "Hi, I'm Jill Smith, Ann's stepmother." (names changed) The teacher looked at me with a 'look' and I gave her an "I'm sorry" look and we continued the conference. Upon leaving, I had to stay to talk to the teacher about some stuff (I was head room parent). She hovered and when we all walked out, she walked behind me to force my daughter to choose who to walk with. My daughter is too kind-hearted to make a choice, so she tried to walk in between us. So much ####### like that, it's ridiculous.

We celebrate the kids' birthdays together and some holidays. She asserts herself in my house as if it were hers. Too many examples to mention. Until this week, I was silent about it all for the kids' sake. But she pushed me to my breaking point when she tried to contact me to determine who was going to be the 'family representative' at my daughter's high school meeting to discuss curriculum planning. Again, my ex was out of town and he had plenty of advance notice to ask ME whether I was going to the meeting or not... I refused to answer her attempts to contact me, so of course, she attended the meeting and confronted me about my non-responsiveness. She could have 'scheduled patients if she knew I was going to be there'. I finally told her that my ex and I were co-parenting and that I was only going to work with him on scheduling issues, arrangements, etc... When I didn't waiver from that, she challenged my character as I described above and we had quite the 'discussion'. David was there and witnessed the whole thing.

I have absolutely no problem with her being involved for the kids' sake... she needs to develop a relationship with them too... but not at my expense. She doesn't know her boundaries, which is unbelieveable. She's supposed to know better being a psychologist, right?

Sorry for the long-winded response, but you asked

Man, that's got to be frustrating for you...I'm sorry that you have deal with it. Following what the author said about listening, it sounds like she wants to feel included with the parenting of your child and your ex is enabling her to push her way into the mix. IMO, she needs to accept that you and your ex are your daughter's primary caregivers and while she can provide a supporting role, her responsibility to your child is NOT equivalent to yours and your ex. Perhaps that could be made clear between you and your ex? Maybe even include her in this discussion?

[brnidokiegurl 0]

Kids caught in the middle can be quite the problem, just remember just because this person holds this position she may not practice herself what she would tell others (psychologist). My youngest son was also in the middle,except it was his father that WAS the problem with his drinking, but this woman didnt want to hear any of it because she was so educated in this field she knew how to manage him. Later down the line come to find out they were both drunks, and he also divorced her. GUess she wasnt as smart as she thought.

[JenT 0]

Man, that's got to be frustrating for you...I'm sorry that you have deal with it. Following what the author said about listening, it sounds like she wants to feel included with the parenting of your child and your ex is enabling her to push her way into the mix. IMO, she needs to accept that you and your ex are your daughter's primary caregivers and while she can provide a supporting role, her responsibility to your child is NOT equivalent to yours and your ex. Perhaps that could be made clear between you and your ex? Maybe even include her in this discussion?

Thanks... it is frustrating. Thankfully, the kids are sheltered from it. Of course she wants to feel included... so does David. I've never been opposed to that. But I think she's jealous that my ex and I DO communicate one-on-one about parenting stuff and she gets the info second-hand. She she's trying to gain more control, but I'm sorry, her role is NOT equivalent. (You put that well.)

I already have a meeting set up with my ex for first thing Monday morning... "co-parenting issues" is the subject. He's the one who dropped the ball on this and created this conflict. But I'm sure he's told her, "My kids are your kids" because he doesn't want any more. He can promise away, but nothing changes the fact that I am their mother.

Talking with her is pointless. She is manipulating him and having her in the discussion will just cause it to deteriorate.

[JenT 0]

Kids caught in the middle can be quite the problem, just remember just because this person holds this position she may not practice herself what she would tell others (psychologist). My youngest son was also in the middle,except it was his father that WAS the problem with his drinking, but this woman didnt want to hear any of it because she was so educated in this field she knew how to manage him. Later down the line come to find out they were both drunks, and he also divorced her. GUess she wasnt as smart as she thought.

I have gone out of my way to make sure that there are no further opportunities for her to assert herself in front of them with me.... I've never said a bad word about her to them and have encouraged their relationship with her. I AM grateful that she is not an 'evil stepmother' and try to remember that when she gets under my skin. This was the first time I let her know that she's gotten to me, so we'll see.

[brnidokiegurl 0]

Maybe its just a learning experience for her, i dont remember if you said she had any kids before. But im sure she is really trying to (over) compensate and try to show others she can handle this job and maybe its just coming across the wrong way. Takes time.

[JenT 0]

Maybe its just a learning experience for her, i dont remember if you said she had any kids before. But im sure she is really trying to (over) compensate and try to show others she can handle this job and maybe its just coming across the wrong way. Takes time.

I'm sure it is. They've been together for 3 years, married for 1-1/2. She has no kids of her own.

Some of my friends who know her and have spent time around her (due to their continued friendship with my ex) said the same thing in the beginning. One of them told me recently, "I kept thinking she would mellow, but I have come to realize that that's just the way she is."

Edited January 26, 2007 by JenT

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Man, that's got to be frustrating for you...I'm sorry that you have deal with it. Following what the author said about listening, it sounds like she wants to feel included with the parenting of your child and your ex is enabling her to push her way into the mix. IMO, she needs to accept that you and your ex are your daughter's primary caregivers and while she can provide a supporting role, her responsibility to your child is NOT equivalent to yours and your ex. Perhaps that could be made clear between you and your ex? Maybe even include her in this discussion?

Thanks... it is frustrating. Thankfully, the kids are sheltered from it. Of course she wants to feel included... so does David. I've never been opposed to that. But I think she's jealous that my ex and I DO communicate one-on-one about parenting stuff and she gets the info second-hand. She she's trying to gain more control, but I'm sorry, her role is NOT equivalent. (You put that well.)

I already have a meeting set up with my ex for first thing Monday morning... "co-parenting issues" is the subject. He's the one who dropped the ball on this and created this conflict. But I'm sure he's told her, "My kids are your kids" because he doesn't want any more. He can promise away, but nothing changes the fact that I am their mother.

For sure.

[JenT 0]

Thanks for weighing in on the subject!