IDF builds fake Arab town

[Jenn! 918]

I don't understand that because I said there is a tendency for MENA to lean a certain way, and how some people would not be welcomed would equal to saying hold back your opinions?

I guess maybe I misunderstood what you meant than. I think it's inevitable that someone coming into MENA and expressing the opposite viewpoint from a majority of the posters will be questioned and argued with.

I will concede one point you made though. I'm pretty sure that I would have been offended and would have said something if someone had come into the picture thread and posted pictures from a suicide bombing in Israel. That's being honest. It may be a double standard, but it's the way I feel about it nonetheless.

Oh, and if I can just clarify I bit... The reason I would have been offended is that I would have interpreted such a post as an inflammatory one specifically designed to offend what is clearly the dominant feeling among regular MENA posters. Wife of Mahmoud's post did not bother me, since it is something that we are used to seeing an hearing in MENA, and on a day-to-day basis, not something that other MENA posters would normally be upset by.

Wildroze is more than welcome in the forum. It's not that the forum has been designed to exclude Israel, but IIRC, she is the first with an Israeli SO to actively post.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Double standards for what? Can you plese give me an example? Because from where I stand, no one told Wildroze not to post photos. WOM has been posting those photos since she joined and she should stop because there is an Israeli member?

Also, I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong), but many of the pictures WOM posts are her own pictures that she took herself. So they're not just experiences of random people in the ME. They're HER experiences in the ME. This forum is all about sharing our experiences.

[Boiler 45,510]

I can not believe that this is a new issue, certainly the British Army has trained for such eventualities for many yeras:

Copehill Down is a Ministry of Defence training facility located on Salisbury Plain, Wiltshire, England. It is a 'FIBUA' (Fighting In Built Up Areas) training centre where exercises and tests are conducted.

It is located at Ordance Survey grid reference SU 017 453

I am sure that most (all) other major Armies have similar training facilities.

As far as the Israeli's are concerned, well they would detail the environment to meet likely areas of combat, unlikely to be Igloos.

As far as where Israel should be on this site, I assumed in the Europe discussion area, that would be normal, never occurred to me that it would be in MENA.

[ya falaha! 0]

Are there any Israelis on VJ? I don't think someone would be attacked here simply because they were Israeli. I would really be interested in hearing an Israelis take on the situation in Palestine/Israel. I can understand why you feel like you do, Stina, but until an Israeli shows up here we can't judge.

[jordanianprincess 0]

I don't understand that because I said there is a tendency for MENA to lean a certain way, and how some people would not be welcomed would equal to saying hold back your opinions?

An India forum would tend to learn towards India. Canadian forum would lean towards Canada. Israelis don't considers themselves Arabs for the most part and Arabs don't consider Israelis to be Arabs for the most part. I don't know what the MENA forum should be discussing besides MENA related topics.

But this is the MENA foum, not just for one country or nationality as it would be for India, Canada, as you mentioned above. I am not saying what has to be discussed and what doesn't have to be. But it would be intimidating I think to join in anywhere where you felt your issues or opinions were not supported most of the time. It doesn't even have to be an Israel/Arab issue. I would love to see discussion between Jewish Israelis and Arabic people on here in this regional section. I know it takes the other people showing up too, it can't just happen if they don't come. I understand that. But it almost seems like Israel(Jewish Israelis) being part of the MENA forum is forgotten.

I get what you are saying but strongly disagree. Even though is Israel is physically in the Middle East, they are not Arabs. This fourm is heavily Arab and that is just due the members, there is nothng we can do about that. We have never shunned anyone away. I would probebly feel uncomfortable posting in a predominitly Jewish forum too, but I wouldnt expect them to change the content for me.

[Boiler 45,510]

I have seen Israeli's on this site, but I would not expect to find any on MENA.

[chri'stina 190]

Are there any Israelis on VJ? I don't think someone would be attacked here simply because they were Israeli. I would really be interested in hearing an Israelis take on the situation in Palestine/Israel. I can understand why you feel like you do, Stina, but until an Israeli shows up here we can't judge.

wildroze is not technically Isreali I guess but she is Jewish, and her SO is Israeli. That's why I mentioned these things. But it would be nice if more showed up.

[Bosco 1]

I don't understand that because I said there is a tendency for MENA to lean a certain way, and how some people would not be welcomed would equal to saying hold back your opinions?

Your post wasn't just about wildrose. You said you were annoyed, Israel's "issues" aren't discussed here. You are clearly voicing your opinion about the situation, so you are going to get feedback on it.

True peezey.

To clarify, the part that annoyed me was seeing the way wildroze's comments were reacted to in the pictures thread, not that Israel's issues aren't discussed here.

JP- for me a double standard would still be the picture issue. I do believe if wildroze posted pictures that were politically charged against Palestine, people would not be happy and would react the same way she did.

I know there are horrible things that go on over there. I personally don't care that the pictures were posted. But I don't think it would have been a good reaction if wildroze had been the one to initiate the politcally charged pictures instead of WOM. What bothered me was the way people reacted to wildroze saying how she felt. Not that the pictures were originally posted.

Stina,

I think you need to consider the context. When was the last suicide bombing or the last time an Israel civilian was killed by Palestinians? On the other hand, when was the last time a child or elderly person was stopped at a checkpoint and had a gun pointed at them?

Suicide bombings are atrocious but they are not daily life. To post such a picture would be picking what is a rare but terrible occurence. It would be similar to WOM posting pictures of the girl that recently was shot in the head and killed, but she did not. The pictures WOM posted depicted daily life.

I really think the analogy you suggest in itself is extremely unfair.

ETA: If wildroze had posted pictures of guards outside of cafes, I don't think anyone would have objected, and that would be a fair comparison to what WOM posted.

Edited January 26, 2007 by Bosco

[ya falaha! 0]

Ok gotcha. Well I, personally, would appreciate it if she did participate in this forum more often.

I'm not educated enough in ME politics to discuss the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I have my own feelings towards it but don't feel comfortable sharing them. I have a good friend who is Jewish. We never discuss Israel or religion. It's just not important in our relationship.

Are there any Israelis on VJ? I don't think someone would be attacked here simply because they were Israeli. I would really be interested in hearing an Israelis take on the situation in Palestine/Israel. I can understand why you feel like you do, Stina, but until an Israeli shows up here we can't judge.

wildroze is not technically Isreali I guess but she is Jewish, and her SO is Israeli. That's why I mentioned these things. But it would be nice if more showed up.

[chri'stina 190]

ETA: If wildroze had posted pictures of guards outside of cafes, I don't think anyone would have objected, and that would be a fair comparison to what WOM posted.

I know what you are saying but I don't totally agree. Since I have not been to Israel or Palestine I can't say, but I don't think it would be the same.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

How do you think the coverage of this story would be if it was Iran's military building a fake Israeli town?

I'll strongly suggest you read Clive Cussler's "Vixen 03".

While it is fiction, it confirms that almost every country has war/invasion plans about other countries (even if they are absurd).

The point is not whether a country has war plans or fake towns. Let's assume Iran finished building such a town, only Israeli, a few months ago and FoxNews caught wind of it. How do you think the coverage of this would play out? Do you think it would be dismissed as every country having war plans, or do you think it would be blown into a big story, furthering the claim that Iran is a threat to peace?

As someone said earlier, if you know a country keeps talking about getting rid of your existence, who wouldn't build towns to practice war with those specific locations?

So no one really answered what would happen in the media were the subject changed from building a fake Arab town to building a fake Israeli town.

Of course people in the media here would be mad about it. The same way people get mad about Iranian leaders when they say they want to destroy Israel. And are non-Israelis in the region there happy about this(Israel building the fake towns)? I doubt it. But I don't see what's so odd about it. There probably ARE fake towns in places like Iran for them to practice war with Israel. I'd be surprised if there weren't.

I have to say that I think it's bold of wildroze to get involved in any of these political topics.

First of all, the MENA board is so baised towards the Arabic Middle Eastern issues and not Israel's issues. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest the opposite so if there is, I would be willing to read it. People can say, "oh everyone is welcome here.." but who would want to post here when the bias is towards something they don't agree with? And when they happen to be a small minority who don't agree?

Secondly, there is a bias towards Islam in the MENA forum. Yes there are some non-Muslims, but with the bias towards people's home country or SO's countries, which are mostly Arab or Middle Eastern(sorry if I don't have the terms 100% correct but you know what I mean), which are mostly Muslim countries, it seems it would be very hard for a Jewish Israeli to participate in this forum without drama.

I looked at some of the pictures thread, and how wildroze was jumped on for being upset at seeing negative politically charged pictures about Israel killing Palestinians, etc. After all the pretty pictures posted. It was not the time nor place. I was annoyed as well. And just imagine if she had posted pictures of dead Jewish people killed by Palestinians first...that would have gone over well... Yet when she is upset about the pictures that are posted, people jumped down her throat. I don't get it. It's a double standard.

This forum is also very left leaning, which also would discourage any "conservatives" to participate a lot unless they want to face daily political battles. That can be seen clearly in the SOTU thread (left leaning I mean).

I participate because I have been doing it for awhile, have gotten used to the way certain things go, and know what might happen if I say certain things. But I try to say things respectfully if I need to disagree. I do respect many members here. I just wonder why people can't see how unwelcoming they are being to people like wildroze.

Stina, honey. I have complimented you on your insight and intelligence before, and I do so again. I am Palestinian, but I keep my mouth shut re political issues because it's not worth it to bother. I spoke with wildroze after the confrontation and she is not comfortable posting here. I believe that is our loss.

What you have gotten and will continue to get when you comment on the narrow leanings of this board and the who's acceptable, who isn;t acceptable is denial and defensiveness. We spent an entire day yesterday arguing about whether there is a MENA mindset or not, a MENA cabal or not. I, like you, observe as an outsider, but I am here alot. You are not wrong, they exist, but hell will freeze over before someone will admit it.

There are more and more brave posters coming here to speak their peace. Thank you for your bravery to speak your mind. I have your back and I don't back down. I'm already an "out", so I have nothing to lose.

Edited January 26, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[peezey 0]

But this is the MENA foum, not just for one country or nationality as it would be for India, Canada, as you mentioned above. I am not saying what has to be discussed and what doesn't have to be. But it would be intimidating I think to join in anywhere where you felt your issues or opinions were not supported most of the time. It doesn't even have to be an Israel/Arab issue. I would love to see discussion between Jewish Israelis and Arabic people on here in this regional section. I know it takes the other people showing up too, it can't just happen if they don't come. I understand that. But it almost seems like Israel(Jewish Israelis) being part of the MENA forum is forgotten.

I don't get this at all. Are all Indians the same? Canadians? We can all come up with a list of a dozen divisive issues in each of these countries. MENA is a set of countries, but they share similar ethnicity, religion, culture.

[peezey 0]

I can not believe that this is a new issue, certainly the British Army has trained for such eventualities for many yeras:

Copehill Down is a Ministry of Defence training facility located on Salisbury Plain, Wiltshire, England. It is a 'FIBUA' (Fighting In Built Up Areas) training centre where exercises and tests are conducted.

It is located at Ordance Survey grid reference SU 017 453

I am sure that most (all) other major Armies have similar training facilities.

As far as the Israeli's are concerned, well they would detail the environment to meet likely areas of combat, unlikely to be Igloos.

As far as where Israel should be on this site, I assumed in the Europe discussion area, that would be normal, never occurred to me that it would be in MENA.

Whether or not these training facilities exist is not the topic of this thread. We are discussing media reaction would the situation be reversed.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Oh, and I forgot to mention reactionary responses.

[mybackpages 0]

No one has to prove what they are allowed to talk about or not talk about, what they are allowed to show in pictures or not. I didn't say to stop doing anything you are doing.

But I am saying how someone from a different perspective would feel about all this, and would not feel truly welcome.

If people disagree with me, that's fine. But I am just saying what I feel about it.

Actually I would guess Wildroze is left leaning also (from her posts) and what happened in the photos thread was that she reacted to things turning too political. It's natural for those who understand Israel to be sensitive to Isreali bashing. This is something she has in common with the MENA posters who also face the same kind of anti-Muslim, anti-Arab bashing. People who do not have the human connection to the region can't really understand this reaction. We - an all sides of the middle east conflict- are so tired of unfounded accusations and sometimes we get defensive.

Wildroze has never expressed anti-Palestinian views only her concern that the thread was turning political. It was a disagreement and we can have those in MENA without being a religious conflict. Despite what we see on American media- many people in teh Middle East jsut get along fine with their neighbors and want peace.