question about the whole visa process?

[Kajikit 65]

Yes some people do it... but people do lots of things that they know aren't good for them. Most of those people who go into the US and then get married have never even HEARD of visas, or they were in the US on a student visa or a work permit so their presence was totally legal and they've already done the 'waiting for a visa' thing only in a different category.

I'd say it's more stressful not less because at some point those people have to try to convince USCIS that they didn't intend to break the law and that they have a real relationship and they have to worry about being refused and deported.

[sharky 2]

There are a few VJers here who are/have adjusted from VWP and from reading their posts, I definately would not consider that they have had a stress free journey as you have implied Paul C. I think they face more worry and concern going into the AOS interview than many of us.

I stressed and worried about our K1 interview, but can honestly say that I am not one bit worried about our AOS. This is not the case with many of our VJers adjusting from the VWP...so give them a break and walk a mile in their shoes.

OK let's get one thing sorted out, like I have already said, I am not sh*tting on anyone that took that chance and adjusted from say VWP OK?!! (in some ways I admire them taking the riskier option)

God read my posts for chr*sts sake, I said that the word HONEST was the wrong word to use.

MY POINT that I was trying to make was that I felt a little frustrated knowing this option was open at this stage of my journey..... and that's all

Aussie Wench I am not condoning it ok, I used the word MIGHT.

and CLMARSH, what the hell is your problem? This is an open forum where people can express their opinions and concerns and worries, so please do not jump down peoples throats until you know what I am talking about.

God some people in here........

ok (subject closed)

[Davin and Rachel 0]

just doing an AOS makes perfectly logical and legal sense for anyone here on a long term vesa for work or school... and a totaly beliveable story in the interview (Over the past year i've been here, we fell in love and decided to get married, yadda yadda). I mean, it would be really counter productive to have to quit your job, move back to your home country, and wait on the k1/k3, only to move back and be unemployed.

I think the only contentment to be had is the fact that it is a system that can be and sometimes is abused... and well, if you can sleep sound at night then i guess its that persons descion

Edited March 10, 2006 by Davin

[ChristinaM 0]

What the hell is my problem? A certain attitude in posting will get you a certain attitude in response, Paul.

I have applied for a K1 fiance visa, and we are going through the correct and legal channels, with the invaluable help of all the colleagues here on VJ...

That's the first thing. It implies from the get-go that the people you're about to talk about are not "going through the correct and legal channels".

however is it just me or are there other people on here that have heard of cases where a person has entered the US on a tourist visa and before the visa expired, they got married in the US.

There are not only people on here who have heard of it, but people who understand the process considerably better than you who have done it.

Then I learned thay they were allow to STAY in the USA, and then apply for the whole greencard thing etc...

OMG!!! People being allowed to STAY? IN THE US?? WITH THEIR LOVED ONES???! Oh. My. God. I don't know HOW the USCIS can allow people to do that!

...effectively "jumping" the whole stressful process of the K1/K3 visa by going straight to the AOS stage???

Trust me, it's a whole lot more stressful doing AOS from a tourist position, particularly from the VWP where you have no recourse for appeal if the interviewing officer is having a bad hair day and doesn't like the way you smell. In terms of "jumping the queue", we're really not. Which is the point I was making when I said:

The VAST MAJORITY of us DID NOT KNOW we were getting married when we came to the US. It hadn't been talked about. There was no reception planned, no rings on fingers, no talk of making a life together starting, y'know, the day after tomorrow.

If we had intended enter the US with the idea in our heads that we were going to get married and apply to live there, then we'd have lined up with the rest of you for our K1's.

Is this correct or am I just getting this all wrong? I have heard of many cases like this!

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating doing this, as far as I am concerned it's best to stick within the rules when it comes to the US immigration services................

It is correct that people can and do do this, but you're wrong to make the constant inferences that there's something slightly illegal going on here. There isn't. In the overall scheme of things yes, visitor status can be abused - as can marriage purely for the green card, student visas, transit visas, VAWA... The people who you will find on this site who entered on a tourist visa did so legitimately, and we don't encourage anyone to commit fraud by deliberately misusing a B2 or the VWP.

however do people do this?

Damn straight they do. Sometimes they even do it on the advice of USCIS themselves, having filed a K1 and expected to have to return to their home country.

I understand that you are frustrated because K1 is a patience game. If I could go back and do it again, I'd probably have not withdrawn the K1 and sat it out.

A few of us have worked hard to bring both the process and the potential pitfalls out to VJ so that people can better understand it. It irks me when people who don't understand adjusting from tourist status attempt to moralise on it, because at the time when JayJay, Kezzie and I were fighting our way through our AOS it wasn't talked about much here on VJ and people didn't know that it was a perfectly legal option. In fact, that's why I filed for a K1 - because there was no support for VWP/B2 adjusters out there.

As you say, this is an open forum, and I'm expressing my opinion.

Christina

[motu 5]

One of the problems of trying to adjust from a visitor's visa or the like lies in what happens if they are denied. I believe that with the K1 denial you have many recourses whereas with an AOS denial from a different visa - you are hauled out and banned for many years! So, why take the chance when you do not fall in that category (besides also being dishonest!) If you think its OK to do what others do dishonestly - you are showing your morality or lack therof. Good Luck

[pax 0]

If I can speak openly for a second...

I suspect the reason that there is (and it's truly unfortunate) little support for VWP and B-2 adjusters is that SO many people post on VJ and say, "Hey, I'm coming to visit on VWP/B-2, can I just get married and stay?" And it's not an easy question to answer. I mean, we all know that theoretically, the answer is yes. And it makes people really angry when people take this route deliberately (not you, clmarsh!) and don't have to suffer the separation and the costs of a K visa. Because people who say that AOS from VWP/B-2 is just as expensive as a K visa aren't doing their math; you save the money you'd spend for the initial filing ($165 when I filed, $170 now) and the K visa itself ($100/local equivalent). As many, many VJers know, $265 is no small chunk of change when you're in our position. And that's before you count the cost of maintaining a long-distance relationship that the VWP/B-2 adjusters don't have: phone bills, postage costs, plane tickets, extortionate exchange rates, possibly visas to the non-USCs country... So yeah, you VWP/B-2 people are most likely saving a big chunk of change.

This all adds up to a nice fat pile of resentment against VWP/B-2 adjusters. And yes, in many cases that resentment is unwarranted; most VJ regulars are well aware of the folks here who took the route of VWP/B-2 adjustment without any fraudulent intent or any intent at all, really. And I'm really, really not wanting to smear those folks. I understand as well as anyone that life can throw curveballs and I'm truly happy that that option is available for the couples who do find themselves in some unexpected situations.

But I think that VJers as a whole tend to advise against it because:

1.) It's SUCH a thorny area legally, and we know that USCIS/DoS is probably watching this site and would probably really prefer that we not advise people on how to break the rules if there's even a slim possibility that a VWP/B-2 adjustment was not completely, 100% unplanned;

2.) If a VWP (and I *think* B-2 as well, but don't quote me) adjustment is denied, the couple is effectively SOL. No one wants to see a VJer in that situation; and

3.) Well, dammit, most VJers had to do it the hard way, basically. No one who went the hard way is going to recommend the easy way, if you know what I mean, if there's any chance that the easy way is for any reason unadvisable.

So I suspect it'll stay that way, and maybe that's unfortunate and maybe it's not. But you have to admit that *most* newbies here *do* have immigrant intent (not all, but most), and so advising a VWP/B-2 adjustment is wrong, anyway.

I say this, again, not to ruffle anyone's feathers nor dispute the legal or ethical permissibility of VWP/B-2 adjustment. Just saying the way I see it.

[Gladdy 0]

I wouldn't assume that a large percentage of those who adjust from other visas were dishonest. I'd like tho think that most of them truly decided to marry after they were already here. In any case, they are faced with much more scrutiny for their adjustment and must convince the adjudicator that they did not enter the U.S. for the purpose of immigrating. I would think that this path for adjustment must be much more stressful as the chances of denial are greater.

OK the word honest was the wrong word to use, and I certainly didn't imply that people that enter the states and then get married on a spur of the moment thing are dis-honest........

It's just that I think that if more people KNEW about the latter option they would take the risk and then plead that it was just "co-incidental and pure chance" that they got married, than rather sit it out for 6-12 months in their home country......... do you understand what I'm getting at? I just feel hard done by because I was not aware of this option when I fell in love with my fiancee, and maybe if I had I would have pursued it?!

Paul,

I would like to add to what others are saying by putting it to you that if say you was to take that risk and follow the route you have identified would you be prepared to face the prospect that if you do go that route and you fail to prove the legitimacy of what you have done ( albiet as stated some folks have done this but are seriously genuine and I say Good Luck and well done for a mistake that did not hinder anyone and proved to move in their favour) that they could easily deport you for Visa overstay or attempting to defraud the system and either one can carry a 3 year plus even up to 10 year ban from even attempting to get back into the USA because I too read a lot and have read this can happen and then what do you think is the safest option. When you equate the maybe but unlikely 1 year ( almost certainly less than a year) wait for the K1 process against the possibility of a deportation order that carries such a serious penalty potential I know which one I would prefer to take and I did it I went K1 to be sure that I get what I want so much and thats to be with my fiancee and get married without the sweat that any minute the law could pounce and say...Bye Bye Mr Gladdy your company is no loinger required in our country... Think about it buddy...frustration hurts but denial hurts even more and self imposed agony due to committing a deliberate act to deceive the authrities is a very imature way to operate.

Be patient, all good things are worth waiting for.

[KarenCee 3]

Certainly many of us would love to "jump the line" so to speak and not have to go through this stressful process. BUT as for me... I would rather do things by the rules than to risk being separated from Joel for any length of time. Why would you even entertain the notion of such a risky thing as what you describe? Why post this and get things stirred up?

[ChristinaM 0]

Pax, it probably makes me more angry than you when people do it deliberately to flout the system (and there are people who try, and get turned away at POE) because it makes it all the harder for those of us who didn't.

Advising someone who's thinking of entering on VWP/B2 when they should have a K1 against it is wonderful, we need to keep doing that. But when people say "Oh my, I came in on a tourist visa, we married yesterday, what do I do to stay?" it is petty to suggest that the only option is to go home and apply for K3/CR1 when that just isn't the case. I've not seen too many people here advocate fraudulent use of tourist visas, and those who tried it have been pretty firmly put back in their place.

As I see it, those are two different cases of tourist adjustment, and one is legal and one is not. We as a community need to be clear about discouraging the illegal one but we need to respect the option for the legal one and not give people hell for taking it. To lump all tourist adjusters into the "dishonest and immoral" category is unfair, and that's my personal issue.

As a side note, Paul, you would have had problems adjusting from your B2 in any circumstance because a ) you had to file a hardship waiver for the K1 and b ) you mentioned in the waivers thread that you unintentionally failed to declare a couple of convictions. The route you're debating here would not have been open to you anyway, more than likely.

Edited March 10, 2006 by clmarsh

[john_and_marlene 162]

If I can speak openly for a second...

I suspect the reason that there is (and it's truly unfortunate) little support for VWP and B-2 adjusters is that SO many people post on VJ and say, "Hey, I'm coming to visit on VWP/B-2, can I just get married and stay?" And it's not an easy question to answer.

I find those cases the easiest to answer .... they are clearly not currently in the U.S. and clearly have immigration intent--so the answer is NO. Not maybe or possibly or depending on some circumstance. The answer for them is absolutely NO.

[Becky 0]

Taken from the I-485 Instructions.

...you are not eligible for adjustment of status if any of the following apply to you:

...

- You were admitted to the United States as a visitor under the Visa Waiver Program, unless you are applying because you are an immediate relative of a U.S. citizen (parent, spouse, widow, widower or unmarried child under 21 years old)

Sounds legal to me.

Edited March 10, 2006 by Becky

[Welshcookie 17]

I have to admit if I hadn't done any research into visa and immigration I would have merrily gone off to the States with my fiance on my tourist visa and got married.....because I thought, and so did my other half, that's all there was to it. It took me some convincing him that we couldn't/shouldn't do it that way. But if we had done that I would be upset to think that I would be seen as dishonest etc just because I was ignorant of certain 'rules'.