When you "fit" the description

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

maybe that's how it looks to you, but i don't blame 'race' or the 'injection of race' for the unlikelihood of justice.

You might be the only person in the country that does not. Our Preznit sure does.

[decocker 7,198]

You might be the only person in the country that does not. Our Preznit sure does.

you don't understand. i don't blame race or the injection of race for eventual justice or lack there of. i believe that race is totally part of the equation and justice can't be served properly without considering it. more importantly progress can't be made without it's full consideration when it comes to the police and their policies.

[DavenRoxy 1,073]

this is what i took issue with, specifically:

Quote

I live in the south, and there are people here who still harbor (hate? I think not. I think it's just stupidity, cuz how can you hate a person because of their skin color, whom you have never even met?) bad will towards blacks.

denying that there are people who habor hatred toward a specific racial demographic? but you don't deny racism exists?

i've never - actually no one here - has said that when a black person is arrested it's automatically because of racism or police brutality. and yet i keep reading that this is the general consensus of vj. why keep repeating something that's completely false?

i'm in northern virginia. i'm in a little armpit of a valley that taught me everything i'd ever need to know about racism, how it survives and how people facilitate it's well being - mostly without even being aware of it's existence.

and if you don't think virginia is the south, come on up here and say it. i'll have a couple good ol boys waiting on ya to splain it.

*sigh* and herein lies 85% of the problem with a internet forum... people either have "selective reading comprehension", or honestly mis-interpret things.

What I was trying to say was that if one does not even know another individual, how can one harbor hatred towards them? "There's a fine line between love and hate", right? It is my opinion that you can't hate someone until they have been close to you and/or cared for by you. To say a person hates another is stupidity in my world. Yes, they are racist. Yes, they treat blacks with disdain/disrespect. But is it hatred, or ignorance taught by their family?

Not sure how much time you have spent in CEHST, but it seems there are a handful who jump on the racist angle as soon as a story like MB or TM or similar come up. And post other similar stories. Which are relevant, but wonky, cuz un-justice happens to all races. It can be argued that a black would have a harder time proving innocence, at least at first, and I would agree with that in many cases. But every time a black gets arrested/mistreated is it racism afoot.

Just talked to one of my black friends today, and asked him what he thought about this MB case. He said, "I hate to say it, but it looks like he got what he deserved. I ain't buying that the cop tried to drag his big ####### into the car. He's not as innocent as the media is trying to paint him." It was refreshing to hear him say that not enough details are in yet, and that we need to know more to decide if it was justified homicide or not, but that it wasn't looking good for MB.

So you're not only from VA, but NORTHERN VA? And you call yourself a southerner? :) Nice try, hon. But if you can't see, smell, or drive to the GOM within 4 hours, you are NOT in the South. Don't hate on me, but isn't there a line between North and South Carolina, and isn't that quite a bit south of you? Oh, child....

[decocker 7,198]

*sigh* and herein lies 85% of the problem with a internet forum... people either have "selective reading comprehension", or honestly mis-interpret things.

What I was trying to say was that if one does not even know another individual, how can one harbor hatred towards them? "There's a fine line between love and hate", right? It is my opinion that you can't hate someone until they have been close to you and/or cared for by you. To say a person hates another is stupidity in my world. Yes, they are racist. Yes, they treat blacks with disdain/disrespect. But is it hatred, or ignorance taught by their family?

Not sure how much time you have spent in CEHST, but it seems there are a handful who jump on the racist angle as soon as a story like MB or TM or similar come up. And post other similar stories. Which are relevant, but wonky, cuz un-justice happens to all races. It can be argued that a black would have a harder time proving innocence, at least at first, and I would agree with that in many cases. But every time a black gets arrested/mistreated is it racism afoot.

Just talked to one of my black friends today, and asked him what he thought about this MB case. He said, "I hate to say it, but it looks like he got what he deserved. I ain't buying that the cop tried to drag his big ####### into the car. He's not as innocent as the media is trying to paint him." It was refreshing to hear him say that not enough details are in yet, and that we need to know more to decide if it was justified homicide or not, but that it wasn't looking good for MB.

So you're not only from VA, but NORTHERN VA? And you call yourself a southerner? :) Nice try, hon. But if you can't see, smell, or drive to the GOM within 4 hours, you are NOT in the South. Don't hate on me, but isn't there a line between North and South Carolina, and isn't that quite a bit south of you? Oh, child....

you know what, you're right - racists don't hate, that's too powerful, they're just dumb and raised wrong.

i'm fairly certain you would consider me one of those handful that jump on the racist angle.and i'm not surprised.

did i call myself a southerner? i don't think i did. i wasn't born here. but this most certainly is 'the south' and you can laugh all you want..like i said, come visit sometime.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

you don't understand. i don't blame race or the injection of race for eventual justice or lack there of. i believe that race is totally part of the equation and justice can't be served properly without considering it. more importantly progress can't be made without it's full consideration when it comes to the police and their policies.

You don't blame race for an eventual lack of jsutice, but sure think justice can't be served without bringing race into it. I think you may be on the verge of a breakthrough.

Let me introduce you to Mr. Durwood Fincher

[Pooky 3,844]

you don't understand. i don't blame race or the injection of race for eventual justice or lack there of. i believe that race is totally part of the equation and justice can't be served properly without considering it. more importantly progress can't be made without it's full consideration when it comes to the police and their policies.

That's where we will have to agree to disagree. Making race a central component of a situation in which it played no part, as may be the case in Ferguson, only serves to distract from the real causes, create over-saturation of the message and result in issue-numbness on the part of the electorate. The result is that no progress is made on resolving the underlying issues, while perpetuating the frustration that lack of progress breeds.

Race was introduced in the Death of Michael Brown from Day One. Yet, as time has gone on and more evidence has come to light, the picture has changed, casting doubt on whether racism had any part to play in the incident. If that turns out to be the case, the race issue may turn out to be a complete distraction, causing nothing but complication in the search for justice,

[DavenRoxy 1,073]

you know what, you're right - racists don't hate, that's too powerful, they're just dumb and raised wrong.

i'm fairly certain you would consider me one of those handful that jump on the racist angle.and i'm not surprised.

did i call myself a southerner? i don't think i did. i wasn't born here. but this most certainly is 'the south' and you can laugh all you want..like i said, come visit sometime.

Look askance all you want. I went to college with white folk from the south who talked about blacks disparagingly. Had more than one or two tell me they hated blacks. When I asked, "Why, what has any black ever done to you?", I got responses like: "Ummmm, well, nothing. But my parents hate blacks, so I hate them too." Yes, an ignorance brought about by an improper raising. They didn't have a reason to hate a black, prolly had very little interaction with any blacks. But they were TAUGHT to hate them, to mistrust them, to consider them "rabid dogs" or other terms we have all heard.

You are pretty quick to jump on the bandwagon, leastwise quicker than I myself. But that all goes back to your raising and life experiences. We all do, of course. I did some growing up in CA, though not in Compton, but I have driven thru there. I have visited ESL, but never lived there. Been thru Detroit once on a motorcycle. Bad areas, bad crime, very negative outlook in all those places. But I have been fortunate enough to live in much nicer climes. And because of that, have met only educated, respectful, law-abiding folks of color. So yeah, that coupled with the fact that my grandmother woulda slapped me into last week if she ever heard me use the N-word has caused me to have a different (more positive) slant on blacks than some may have. But that same outlook is why I feel blacks can have anything they want, IF they work for it. One of my black neighbors... man, I get envious every time he opens his garage door. He and his wife have Harleys, a 2013 Camaro, a BMW, a custom-painted beautiful step-side Chevy truck, both their teens have nice cars. They have a nice house in a nice neighborhood. They pay to have their lawn mowed (which I disagree with; they have two teens, why waste that money weekly???) But you know what? They are not on welfare or other gov't program. They both work, have for years. So good on them for busting their butts to have all those nice toys. Not one whine about how hard their life has been, nor how unfair life is for blacks, though I'd imagine they have plenty of stories about that, if prompted. Gotta respect that kind of lifestyle of hard work and dedication. And their kids? All I hear outta them is, "Yes Sir, No Sir", etc. Very respectful, a great family.

I have always been a supporter of the underdog, prolly always will. But each individual has to do something about their own life to get ahead. And while there are still barriers, more than I am probably aware, life is easier today for blacks than it was in the 60's. Not saying racism is eliminated in the military, but nearly so. Ask Marvin how easy his life has been for the past 20 years because of the military. Certainly he's had it better than his counterparts who still live in STL. I know many folks who joined the military as an escape from being "stuck" in a rut in their hometown. They escaped a life of boredom, poor wages, perhaps even poverty. Good on them. Good on ANYONE who tries to improve their own personal world for the good of their family.

Even if they are from NORTHERN Virginia...

[DavenRoxy 1,073]

In my experience if it's directed mostly at women, especially women you disagree with about issues you feel passionately about, it might be seen as an attempt to talk down to them.

I can see that. But I don't feel that way towards val at this point, so it wasn't intended that way. Disagreement stimulates (hopefully positive) discourse, and can influence/change one's mind, if one has an open mind. I have certainly learned things from my time here on CEHST, and perhaps had my (sometimes myopic) views changed. I don't see myself as having the only correct opinion; we all know what they are like, and what they smell like - but I'd like to think that I sometimes reflect good values and ideas that others can benefit from. Otherwise, my time on this earth is wasted.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

That's where we will have to agree to disagree. Making race a central component of a situation in which it played no part, as may be the case in Ferguson, only serves to distract from the real causes, create over-saturation of the message and result in issue-numbness on the part of the electorate. The result is that no progress is made on resolving the underlying issues, while perpetuating the frustration that lack of progress breeds.

Race was introduced in the Death of Michael Brown from Day One. Yet, as time has gone on and more evidence has come to light, the picture has changed, casting doubt on whether racism had any part to play in the incident. If that turns out to be the case, the race issue may turn out to be a complete distraction, causing nothing but complication in the search for justice,

That's what I meant to say, but somehow it keeps coming out. Da cop dident do it

[DavenRoxy 1,073]

The problem with me (or anyone) making this point is that you get called an apologist for violent black offenders - that because I think there is a connection between the past and the present that this somehow means i think that if a black guys murders someone I think he should somehow be excused for committing the crime. The Term 'White Guilt' was created for just this purpose - it isn't about trying to understand the issues, it's about further politicising them because the people doing it have an agenda, and that agenda is about pushing the narrative that black people are lazy and incompetent and can't run a piss-up in a brewery.

Whatever you feel about this issue, it is fundamentally wrong to attempt to deny black Americans their own history and the legacy arising from it. It might be inconvenient to have to deal with those issues when you hear about rioting in a poor black urban community, but there's a difference between understanding why it happens and making excuses for it.

There is no reason for not acknowledging that blacks were treated unfairly in this country. They were. As are the slaves in Africa today, of other races/colors. It's a sad life, and has no place in the world today, IMHO. I'd whole lot rather see the military going to a foreign country to free slaves than to fight over opium or oil. At least at the end of a anti-slavery conflict, there would be a feeling of self-worth.

Violent criminals, regardless of race, need to be dealt with harshly. You and I would disagree on the how, just suffice it to say color should NOT matter how a criminal is treated. It's unfair if a black is prosecuted or treated badly by officers who give a white criminal better treatment. THAT'S racism in my book. Being arrested because you fit the description of the perp as given by an eyewitness (as in this topic), however unjust, is not racism. That's just bad damn luck.

[decocker 7,198]

Race was introduced in the Death of Michael Brown from Day One. Yet, as time has gone on and more evidence has come to light, the picture has changed, casting doubt on whether racism had any part to play in the incident. If that turns out to be the case, the race issue may turn out to be a complete distraction, causing nothing but complication in the search for justice,

it seems like you're saying race didn't play a part in this event, unless darren wilson shot michael brown because he was black. i'm saying that an overall attitude of unequal treatment within the police force when concerns race, contributed to the event. as in-cops on the ferguson police force felt a bit more at ease treating black civilians with a different level of humanity than white civilians - mostly because that is who they are dealing with day in and out.

it's cool to disagree and all but i don't think wilson shout brown because he was black, end of story. i've never thought wilson was driving his beat and thought, oh look! a black kid, i'm gonna shoot him!

[decocker 7,198]

Look askance all you want. I went to college with white folk from the south who talked about blacks disparagingly. Had more than one or two tell me they hated blacks. When I asked, "Why, what has any black ever done to you?", I got responses like: "Ummmm, well, nothing. But my parents hate blacks, so I hate them too." Yes, an ignorance brought about by an improper raising. They didn't have a reason to hate a black, prolly had very little interaction with any blacks. But they were TAUGHT to hate them, to mistrust them, to consider them "rabid dogs" or other terms we have all heard.

You are pretty quick to jump on the bandwagon, leastwise quicker than I myself. But that all goes back to your raising and life experiences. We all do, of course. I did some growing up in CA, though not in Compton, but I have driven thru there. I have visited ESL, but never lived there. Been thru Detroit once on a motorcycle. Bad areas, bad crime, very negative outlook in all those places. But I have been fortunate enough to live in much nicer climes. And because of that, have met only educated, respectful, law-abiding folks of color. So yeah, that coupled with the fact that my grandmother woulda slapped me into last week if she ever heard me use the N-word has caused me to have a different (more positive) slant on blacks than some may have. But that same outlook is why I feel blacks can have anything they want, IF they work for it. One of my black neighbors... man, I get envious every time he opens his garage door. He and his wife have Harleys, a 2013 Camaro, a BMW, a custom-painted beautiful step-side Chevy truck, both their teens have nice cars. They have a nice house in a nice neighborhood. They pay to have their lawn mowed (which I disagree with; they have two teens, why waste that money weekly???) But you know what? They are not on welfare or other gov't program. They both work, have for years. So good on them for busting their butts to have all those nice toys. Not one whine about how hard their life has been, nor how unfair life is for blacks, though I'd imagine they have plenty of stories about that, if prompted. Gotta respect that kind of lifestyle of hard work and dedication. And their kids? All I hear outta them is, "Yes Sir, No Sir", etc. Very respectful, a great family.

I have always been a supporter of the underdog, prolly always will. But each individual has to do something about their own life to get ahead. And while there are still barriers, more than I am probably aware, life is easier today for blacks than it was in the 60's. Not saying racism is eliminated in the military, but nearly so. Ask Marvin how easy his life has been for the past 20 years because of the military. Certainly he's had it better than his counterparts who still live in STL. I know many folks who joined the military as an escape from being "stuck" in a rut in their hometown. They escaped a life of boredom, poor wages, perhaps even poverty. Good on them. Good on ANYONE who tries to improve their own personal world for the good of their family.

Even if they are from NORTHERN Virginia...

i'm not really sure why you're telling me all this, you drove through compton once, detroit, and you've met black people that are educated and respectful - even law abiding (gasp)! i'm not sure why you want me to ask marvin about his experience with the military, or prejudice in the military. i don't get your point in telling me that your black neighbors have nice cars/motorcycles and good kids. i don't know what gave you the impression that i am so limited or that i would automatically assume you are, either.

[Teddy B 17,252]

i haven't mastered sammiches yet and i've got to make full on meals? psssh. point that thing away from me.

You don't have to turn them all off. You can choose which ones you want to ignore. The instructions are in my signature.

I used to pick and chose which ones I wanted to shut off, but found myself shutting at least one off in almost every thread, including the mile long timelines and life stories people post as their siggy in the upper forums. So I just decided to deep six all siggy's, the good ones are far and few between.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

it seems like you're saying race didn't play a part in this event, unless darren wilson shot michael brown because he was black. i'm saying that an overall attitude of unequal treatment within the police force when concerns race, contributed to the event. as in-cops on the ferguson police force felt a bit more at ease treating black civilians with a different level of humanity than white civilians - mostly because that is who they are dealing with day in and out.

it's cool to disagree and all but i don't think wilson shout brown because he was black, end of story. i've never thought wilson was driving his beat and thought, oh look! a black kid, i'm gonna shoot him!

I think the problem is a general failure to understand the perspective of people outside of your own frame of reference. There are more than a few people (possibly some in this thread) who believe that because blacks feature strongly in crime statistics that this then justifies racial profiling and stop and search policies. There is no consideration that a person who is law-abiding and black shouldn't be harrassed on the basis of stereotypes.

That's really what we're talking about - not white-hood wearing white supremacist racism, but a general undercurrent of socially acceptable prejudice, justified by assumptions about the poor social outcomes experienced by young black men. Because some of these people commit quite horrific crimes, there's no desire to understand how they end up that or why it is that many urban communities turn out violent offenders who don't want to participate in broader society. For the police, these things have to be handled very delicately, but all too often I think it's about convenience (i.e. if I stop a black guy odds are he'll be up to no good).

Edited August 28, 2014 by Hail Ming!