The Michael Brown Shooting Official Thread

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Well I'm sure it could happen and may happen, the facts certainly marshal against it. What if Brown, attacked him, Brown taunted him after beating him and then rushed him? Will the civic leaders apologize for the rush to judgment? What will become of the witnesses who saw the "execution"? Will they be persecuted? What will become of the "Hands up, don't shoot" crowd? Truth may be stranger than fiction but, fiction sells a helluva lot better.

Should they be put in jail? What if it's the other way around? Will the folks here sit up and say my bad? I know I admitted when I was wrong before. Let the facts come out.

[Karee 4,190]

Should they be put in jail? What if it's the other way around? Will the folks here sit up and say my bad? I know I admitted when I was wrong before. Let the facts come out.

Let the facts come out? You've already convicted the cop. You did the same thing in the TM/GZ debacle.

[lostinblue 1,989]

What state charges could be filed in the Michael Brown shooting?

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By Paul Cassell August 20

On Wednesday, a state grand jury apparently begins reviewing evidence in the Michael Brown case. On Tuesday, I argued in favor of a state assessment of the possible criminal charges, rather than a federal assessment, given the difficulties of proving a federal civil rights violation in the shooting. And I want to again emphasize (as I will discuss below) that we don’t have any real understanding of the facts at his point. But, nonetheless, since facts may begin to emerge soon, it may be useful to understand what criminal charges for the shooting are possible under Missouri law.

The most serious homicide charge is first-degree murder. Under Missouri law “[a] person commits the crime of murder in the first degree if he knowingly causes the death of another person after deliberation upon the matter.” This charge seems quite improbable, even accepting the version of the facts most favorable to Brown’s supporters, because it would be difficult to show that the officer deliberated before killing Brown.

This leads, then, to second-degree murder which, as relevant here, applies where a person “[k[nowingly causes the death of another person . . . .” To act “knowingly” means to act in a way that producing a result (here, death) is almost certain. So the officer seems to have knowingly shot and killed Brown. Would this automatically be second-degree murder?

Of course not, because not every police killing is second-degree murder. Police are authorized to use force, including deadly force, in appropriate situations. As I discussed two days ago, Missouri has a broad statute authorizing police officers to use force when making arrests, including deadly force. The statute provides (in relevant part):

3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only

. . .

(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested

(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or

(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or

© May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.

As I also discussed two days ago, this statute is patently unconstitutional, at least to the extent that it purports to authorize deadly force to apprehend any fleeing felon regardless of the danger of that felon. While interesting issues can arise about the extent to which a criminal defendant can rely on an unconstitutional statute, my sense (without having researched the issue in detail) is that the statute will be construed to authorize deadly force only to the extent consistent with the Supreme Court’s decision in Tennessee v. Garner, that is, deadly force is permissible when the fleeing suspect posed “a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others.”

Notice, by the way, that the statute allows deadly force only when “immediately necessary” to effect an arrest. If Michael Brown had his hands up and was clearly and obviously attempting to surrender, then deadly force would not be justified and the shooting would be second-degree murder.

Notice further that the statute also provides a defense where the officer has a “reasonable belief” that certain facts exist – that would seem to provide a defense where the officer reasonably, but mistakenly, believed that he was facing a threat of serious physical harm. This is consistent with caselaw in the deadly force area that tends to give the officers some leeway, such as the Supreme Court decision in Graham v. Connor which held that “the calculus of reasonableness must embody allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second judgments—in circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving—about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation.” Missouri law also makes clear that the police officer has no “duty to retreat” when attempting to make an arrest.

So, if justification exists (and I set to one side the issue of who bears the burden of proof on the issue and by what standard), then even though an intentional killing has occurred, no crime has been committed. But what about an intermediate case, such as where an officer acts in what he thinks is a need for self-defense but misjudges the need to use deadly force? In that situation, Missouri law (like other states around the country) recognizes a mitigation described as “imperfect self-defense.” This reduces a crime that would otherwise be murder down to involuntary manslaughter. See, e.g., State v. Frost, 49 S.W.3d 212, 220-21 (Mo. Ct. App. 2001). In situations where the officer acted recklessly, the crime would be a Class C felony. In situations where the officer acted with criminal negligence, the crime would be a Class D felony.

There is one other theoretical possibility for state criminal charges. What if the officer got into a fight with Michael Brown and then, enraged by the mutual combat, shot him? That would not be second-degree murder but, instead, would be reduced to the crime of voluntary manslaughter. This would be a situation where the officer would have acted “under influence of sudden passion.”

Now, what to make of all these possibilities? I think it is useful to understand the Missouri criminal code (which is similar to that in many other states) so that as evidence comes out about what actually happened during the shooting, it is possible to make some kind of informed judgment about whether criminal charges should be filed. But I completely agree with, for example, the Missouri Fraternal Order of Police when they condemn those (such as the Governor of Missouri) who have called for “vigorous prosecution” of the police officer involved. Until the facts have been assembled, we shouldn’t assume that any prosecution is appropriate, particularly given the presumption of innocence in this country. (Full disclosure: I am working with the Utah Fraternal Order of Police on the defense of an unrelated police shooting here in Utah. I also do not have specialized expertise in Missouri criminal law, and so my analysis above rests on my understanding of general criminal principles that would apply in the state.)

What the statutes I discuss above make clear is that proving a crime in the Brown shooting will require close attention to the details, particularly details about the shooting officer’s state of mind. Even if the officer made a mistake in shooting, that will not be enough to support criminal charges so long as his mistake was reasonable — a determination in which the officer will receive some benefit of the doubt because of the split-second judgments that he had to make. And, of course, if it turns out that Michael Brown was in fact charging directly towards the officer (as recent reports have suggested), the officer’s actions will have been justified under state law and no charges should be filed. Trial lawyers know that one thing above all else decides criminal cases: the facts. And that is what we’re waiting for now.

Update: Robert VerBruggen at RealClearPolicy has doggedly tracked down what appear to be the Missouri jury instructions on the circumstances in which police can use deadly force. As I surmised in my post, Missouri has simply changed its jury instructions to track the Supreme Court’s current doctrine. I still think there are interesting questions lurking about the extent to which an officer can rely on an constitutional statute that remains on the books, although I suspect those questions will be resolved in favor of construing the statute to only authorize deadly force in circumstances where the Supreme Court would allow deadly force.

Paul G. Cassell teaches criminal law, criminal procedure, and crime victims' rights at the S.J. Quinney College of Law at the University of Utah.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/08/20/what-state-charges-could-be-filed-in-the-michael-brown-shooting/?tid=collaborative_1.0_strip_3

[UncleBeer 244]

And I'm not sure why the news continues to refer to him as a boy or teenager. I guess technically being eighteen you are still a teen but everything you do at that stage gets you treated like an adult including dying for your country.

The Associated Press has consistently gone to great lengths to describe the "Gentle Giant" as a "teenager", even so far as to violate their own stylebook:

youth: Applicable to boys and girls from age 13 until 18th birthday. Use man or woman for individuals 18 and older.

The next war will be fought with partisan semantics.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Let the facts come out? You've already convicted the cop. You did the same thing in the TM/GZ debacle.

I asked for the same facts. Why hasn't there be a single picture that says he got his eye socket broken? TM/GZ was guilty of bad judgement, which led to TM's death.

Too much sketchy stuff, but folks here have already made their minds up.

[Pooky 3,786]

Too much sketchy stuff, but folks here have already made their minds up.

Not to mention the professional media, social media, the politicians and the local population. In this age of instant access, people seem to be expecting the "truth" to be out there immediately and be damned with an investigation and due process.

At this point, it really doesn't matter what the facts are, they won't make the blindest bit of difference to the consequences that are currently being felt and those that are yet to come.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

For what it's worth; the use of "Oriental" is pejorative and offends many people. Many people would consider it similar to referring to someone as a Negro.

Or as one of my Chinese friends says, Oriental is a rug.

[Janelle2002 3,865]

Yeah the massive difference in the crime rates and single motherhood in the black community are all the fault of racism. Those are the real issues. Some black folks can continue to blame the racist boogeyman for all their problems, and they'll continue to be at the bottom of the income scale. Until black folks in this country start taking responsibility for their own lives and their own actions, nothing at all will change. We can come back and have this conversation in 30 years, and nothing at all will have changed.

Personally I think the public in general are getting tired of hearing these sob stories. I know I am. You'll always be able to find these one off stories of how this or that guy was done wrong because of his race. Those stories will always be there.

The black community has been give billions of dollars over the years, had programs like bussing and affirmative action, and it hasn't done one damn thing to increase their lot in life. The percentage of black folks living at or below the poverty level has remained constant since the 1970s.

It's always someone else's fault. I get it.

Let me see, if I can remember this or not, but weren't there lots of blacks growing up in single parent homes since the beginning of when they came to America?

Let me see if I can help you with this. Some of this is black people issue, a lot of it is "it has always been like this" issue.

Kids being separated from their parents from Africa.

Kids being taken from their parents straight off of the slave ship.

Kids being sold to other plantations.

Wives being sold to other plantations.

Boys forced to rape their mothers. (you do know where a mutha focker came from right)

Men being forced to rape other women to replenish slaves

Nannys and mamas who were taking care of the master's kids more than the mother was ever able to take care of their children.

I can remember my grandmother working for a particular white woman until she died. It was all she knew. My mother said it was like that when she was a kid too. She left at 430 in the morning and came home at 11 or 12 at night.

My great grandmother rocked me on her knee when I was 9 and all she ever talked about was how her daddy was hung on a tree in front of her when she was nine. My great great grandmother had 10 kids by 5 different men, the fathers were sold some of the kids were sold too. She wasn't reunited with them until most were grown. Only 6 actually survived, one whom was my great grandmother. And one day my great great grandmother went missing. Imagine that. You can imagine what happened to her.

So for some, this was looong ago, for many, this horror was not too long ago. Decades of abuse and wrongfully taught habbits do not change over night. More years of oppression and racism does not put out the fire, it fans it.

And you don't have to respond back.

Some people couldn't survive one day of the ####### blacks and Indians had to deal with.

[lostinblue 1,989]

Let me see, if I can remember this or not, but weren't there lots of blacks growing up in single parent homes since the beginning of when they came to America?

Let me see if I can help you with this. Some of this is black people issue, a lot of it is "it has always been like this" issue.

Kids being separated from their parents from Africa.

Kids being taken from their parents straight off of the slave ship.

Kids being sold to other plantations.

Wives being sold to other plantations.

Boys forced to rape their mothers. (you do know where a mutha focker came from right)

Men being forced to rape other women to replenish slaves

Nannys and mamas who were taking care of the master's kids more than the mother was ever able to take care of their children.

I can remember my grandmother working for a particular white woman until she died. It was all she knew. My mother said it was like that when she was a kid too. She left at 430 in the morning and came home at 11 or 12 at night.

My great grandmother rocked me on her knee when I was 9 and all she ever talked about was how her daddy was hung on a tree in front of her when she was nine. My great great grandmother had 10 kids by 5 different men, the fathers were sold some of the kids were sold too. She wasn't reunited with them until most were grown. Only 6 actually survived, one whom was my great grandmother. And one day my great great grandmother went missing. Imagine that. You can imagine what happened to her.

So for some, this was looong ago, for many, this horror was not too long ago. Decades of abuse and wrongfully taught habbits do not change over night. More years of oppression and racism does not put out the fire, it fans it.

And you don't have to respond back.

Some people couldn't survive one day of the ####### blacks and Indians had to deal with.

You left out the Irish women raped by black slaves. by the thousands and maybe tens of thousands

The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World. His Proclamation of 1625 required Irish political prisoners be sent overseas and sold to English settlers in the West Indies.

By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat (70% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves at this time).

From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English and over 300,000 were sold as slaves.

Ireland's population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade.

During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were forcibly taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. Another 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia while 30,000 Irish men were sold to the highest bidder.

In 1656, Oliver Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers.

African slaves were very expensive (50 Sterling), had to be transported long distances and paid for not only in Africa but in the New World. Irish slaves were cheap (no more than 5 Sterling) and most often were either kidnapped from Ireland, prisoners or forcibly removed. They could be worked to death, whipped or branded without it being a crime. Many, many times they were beat to death and while the death of an Irish slave was a monetary setback, it was far cheaper than the death of an expensive African. Therefore, African slaves were treated much better in Colonial America.

The importation of Irish slaves continued well into the eighteenth century, long after the importation of African slaves became the norm. Records state that after the 1798 Irish Rebellion, thousands of Irish slaves were sold to both America and Australia.

Irish slavery didn't end until Britain decided to end slavery in 1839 and stopped transporting slaves.

The enactment of 1652 in the British Isles:

"it may be lawful for two or more justices of the peace within any county, citty or towne, corporate belonging to the commonwealth to from tyme to tyme by warrant cause to be apprehended, seized on and detained all and every person or persons that shall be found begging and vagrant.. in any towne, parish or place to be conveyed into the Port of London, or unto any other port from where such person or persons may be shipped into a forraign collonie or plantation."

The judges of Edinburgh Scotland during the years 1662-1665 ordered the enslavement and shipment to the colonies a large number of rogues and others who made life unpleasant for the British upper class. (Register for the Privy Council of Scotland, third series, vol. 1, p 181, vol. 2, p 101).

White slaves were owned by Negroes and Indians to such an extent in the South that the Virginia Assembly passed a law against the practice!

n 1670 the Governor of Virginia said that he had 2000 Negro and 6000 White slaves

http://www.saveyourheritage.com/white_slavery.htm

he mulatto drivers enjoyed using the whip on whites. It gave them a sense of power and was also a protest against their white sires. White women in particular were singled out for punishment in the fields. Sometimes, to satisfy a perverted craving, the mulatto drivers forced the women to strip naked before commencing the flogging and then forced them to continue working all day under the blistering sun. While the women were weeding in the fields in that condition, the drivers often satisfied their lust by taking them from the rear.(12)

Such instances of horrific rape and unwilling sexual union between Irish female slaves and Black slave-drivers, was actually implicitly encouraged by many of their White masters. Mulatto children, who resulted from such unions, both willing and unwilling, were seen by the plantation masters as a potentially unlimited breeding stock of future native-born slave labor, acquired free of charge and without the costs of transportation.(13) Existing public records on Barbados reveal that some planters went as far as to systematize this process of miscegenation through the establishment of special “stud farms” for the specific purpose of breeding mixed-race slave children. White female slaves, often as young as 12, were used as “breeders” to be forcibly mated with Black men.(14)

http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=396

If you want to post history post it all ...

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/21/ferguson-witnesses/

you did see where the star witness has an outstanding warrant for,, wait for wait for

Filing a false police report

OMG the humanity , you can't script the stuff these morons do

i like how when this all started, we were all on board with giving serious thought to checking the state of our police in this country. then the cops released the video of the robbery and all of a sudden the possibility of a serious discussion about police brutality went out the window.

well that an the autopsy report that proved he was not shot in the back, the eyewitness who did not know he was being taped, who said he was rushing the cop and saw the struggle in the car, and the fractured eye socket of the cop.

For what it's worth; the use of "Oriental" is pejorative and offends many people. Many people would consider it similar to referring to someone as a Negro.

See i keep telling my wife's Philippina friend who keeps saying it ?

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

Actually, once that video was posted, that's what a lot of people were saying. That his killing was justified because he robbed a store earlier. In fact, they released his shooter's name at the same time when they posted the video. I saw, here he is, but this dude was a criminal who deserved to be shot and killed. The fact that they left his body in the street for 4 hours, in broad daylight, without even covering him up, shows you how much they care.

Who here said he deserved to die for robbing a store. We have all clearly said punching the cop and trying to take his gun is what got him killed. You just making stuff up now.

Yes i am sure you can google that and find some nut job somewhere that said that, but it's hardly a mainstream viewpoint if any at all

You know how it goes. That's why they released the video. Now the cop is having fundraisers and support from all over. All they had to do is paint Brown like a thug.

Wow imagine that. Someone supporting the cop, with a fund raiser and painting Brown in a bad light

What would you have us do, burn a town down and demand the cop be found innocent regardless of the evidence. Wait that options taken

Edited August 22, 2014 by The Nature Boy

[Janelle2002 3,865]

You left out the Irish women raped by black slaves. by the thousands and maybe tens of thousands

The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World. His Proclamation of 1625 required Irish political prisoners be sent overseas and sold to English settlers in the West Indies.

By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat (70% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves at this time).

From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English and over 300,000 were sold as slaves.

Ireland's population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade.

During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were forcibly taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. Another 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia while 30,000 Irish men were sold to the highest bidder.

In 1656, Oliver Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers.

African slaves were very expensive (50 Sterling), had to be transported long distances and paid for not only in Africa but in the New World. Irish slaves were cheap (no more than 5 Sterling) and most often were either kidnapped from Ireland, prisoners or forcibly removed. They could be worked to death, whipped or branded without it being a crime. Many, many times they were beat to death and while the death of an Irish slave was a monetary setback, it was far cheaper than the death of an expensive African. Therefore, African slaves were treated much better in Colonial America.

The importation of Irish slaves continued well into the eighteenth century, long after the importation of African slaves became the norm. Records state that after the 1798 Irish Rebellion, thousands of Irish slaves were sold to both America and Australia.

Irish slavery didn't end until Britain decided to end slavery in 1839 and stopped transporting slaves.

The enactment of 1652 in the British Isles:

"it may be lawful for two or more justices of the peace within any county, citty or towne, corporate belonging to the commonwealth to from tyme to tyme by warrant cause to be apprehended, seized on and detained all and every person or persons that shall be found begging and vagrant.. in any towne, parish or place to be conveyed into the Port of London, or unto any other port from where such person or persons may be shipped into a forraign collonie or plantation."

The judges of Edinburgh Scotland during the years 1662-1665 ordered the enslavement and shipment to the colonies a large number of rogues and others who made life unpleasant for the British upper class. (Register for the Privy Council of Scotland, third series, vol. 1, p 181, vol. 2, p 101).

White slaves were owned by Negroes and Indians to such an extent in the South that the Virginia Assembly passed a law against the practice!

n 1670 the Governor of Virginia said that he had 2000 Negro and 6000 White slaves

http://www.saveyourheritage.com/white_slavery.htm

he mulatto drivers enjoyed using the whip on whites. It gave them a sense of power and was also a protest against their white sires. White women in particular were singled out for punishment in the fields. Sometimes, to satisfy a perverted craving, the mulatto drivers forced the women to strip naked before commencing the flogging and then forced them to continue working all day under the blistering sun. While the women were weeding in the fields in that condition, the drivers often satisfied their lust by taking them from the rear.(12)

Such instances of horrific rape and unwilling sexual union between Irish female slaves and Black slave-drivers, was actually implicitly encouraged by many of their White masters. Mulatto children, who resulted from such unions, both willing and unwilling, were seen by the plantation masters as a potentially unlimited breeding stock of future native-born slave labor, acquired free of charge and without the costs of transportation.(13) Existing public records on Barbados reveal that some planters went as far as to systematize this process of miscegenation through the establishment of special “stud farms” for the specific purpose of breeding mixed-race slave children. White female slaves, often as young as 12, were used as “breeders” to be forcibly mated with Black men.(14)

http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=396

If you want to post history post it all ...

One, to say that any color slave is being better than another color of a slave is just pure ignorance. There is no "fad" you can make about slavery.

So, black men were forced to rape white women per your last statement, thus meaning they did not want to. So that was the black man's fault? Again, going back to the idea of spreading kids and having babies but not being there to raise them. Thank you for pointing this out.

Last but not least, is there an Irish Crow? You know, like black folks had Jim Crow and because the uniqueness of our skin color we could easily be identified as having some form of black heritage in us if not all making it easier to identify us and discriminate against us.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

hehehe. That brings back memories.

Seems Mr. Brown did a fine job as painting himself as a thug.

and the 4 hour in the street thing. I am pretty sure they had a crime scene and were making sure the dotted every I and crossed every T. Is that all they got know. It took them to long to process the crime scene. Really ???

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

I'd have a super hard retort if I knew what you were talking about.

I think she was trying to say we can't be upset that M Brown robbed a store and tried to beat a cop to death and take his gun, because we committed a bit of genocide on the native Americans.

It's called moral relvance

My mom used to call it, 2 wrongs dont = a right

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

I've seen reports of this dude in the street dead. Not one ambulance, no medics for a fractured eye socket. That's why I find it weird. Not only that, he put 6 bullets in him. You must have one hell of an aim.

quite the contrary. Not being able to make a head shot or center of mass shot the first 4 or 5 times, is very shoddy marksmanship

Let me see.. Now that everything you can think of to defend this kid has been proven to be BS we now have .

1. The left his body at the crime scene too long

2. The cop did not act hurt enough

Really ?

Well I'm sure it could happen and may happen, the facts certainly marshal against it. What if Brown, attacked him, Brown taunted him after beating him and then rushed him? Will the civic leaders apologize for the rush to judgment? What will become of the witnesses who saw the "execution"? Will they be persecuted? What will become of the "Hands up, don't shoot" crowd? Truth may be stranger than fiction but, fiction sells a helluva lot better.

They have already very publicly said, they don't care about the facts.