Israel-Gaza conflict: What has Israel achieved in 26 bloody days?

[BatmanUSA 105]

Israel tried "Land for peace" years ago and it didn't work...

The simple truth is that Israel would not launch military campaigns into Gaza if the Palestinians did not fire rockets into Israel.

[Karee 4,190]

Israel tried "Land for peace" years ago and it didn't work...

The simple truth is that Israel would not launch military campaigns into Gaza if the Palestinians did not fire rockets into Israel.

I guess the same could be said if the Israelis didn't turn the place in to the largest open air prison on the planet.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

I guess the same could be said if the Israelis didn't turn the place in to the largest open air prison on the planet.

Except that its not true.. We covered this before.. The walls went up in response to the violence - it is the result, not the cause. So no - the same can't be said..

From the Hamas charter/constitution/covenant:

There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.

What the F*** more needs to be said?

[Karee 4,190]

Except that its not true.. We covered this before.. The walls went up in response to the violence - it is the result, not the cause. So no - the same can't be said..

From the Hamas charter/constitution/covenant:

There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.

What the F*** more needs to be said?

Which walls? The ones around Gaza or the walls that go right through the middle of the west bank. That's the reward for peace with Israel. More walls and stolen land. Hamas isn't running anything in the west bank, yet the Israeli govt. keeps building more settlements and taking more land. That sends a pretty clear message about what the Israeli govt. considers "peace"

Edited August 6, 2014 by Karee

[OriZ 3,157]

It was clear from the beginning that PR battle. It was clear to Hamas from the beginning that every military failure could turn into a PR achievement, and that every humanitarian crisis is a strategic achievement.

This works. Every word written and said, in the world and in Israel, about a "massacre" and war crimes is another word establishing Hamas' strategy.

So we can tell ourselves, repeatedly, that we are winning. Militarily, it's true. Strategically, it's much less true. The first and expected international sign came from the UN Human Rights Council, whose decision to launch a commission of inquiry is more serious than the decision made by that same council in regards to Operation Cast Lead.

Now it's also leaders and friends from the Western states. In France, it's the president and foreign minister who are using the word "massacre," thereby not only helping Hamas score points but also encouraging the jihadists on Paris' streets. If this is what Laurent Fabius and Francois Hollande are saying, how can we complain about the protestors?

It's a given process. In the first stage, they show understanding towards Israel. In the second stage, media reports emerge about the destruction in Gaza and about the innocent casualties. In the third stage, the politicians change their stance.

Ed Miliband, the British opposition leader, strongly criticized his country's arms deals with Israel, and Prime Minister David Cameron announced that every single deal would be reviewed thoroughly. Another achievement for Hamas.

France and Britain were in the exact same situation when NATO planes bombed Belgrade and its surroundings. A Hospital, a retirement home and a refugee camp suffered direct hits. On April 15, 1999, British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook reacted to the targeting of innocent people: "How dare they now produce crocodile tears for people killed in the conflict for which they are responsible."

It happened again in 2012 in the bombardments against the Libyan regime. Innocent people were killed. Amnesty demanded an investigation. NATO ignored it.

And it happened when the Lebanese army destroyed an entire refugee camp, Nahr al-Bared, in order to uproot a handful of 450 members of a terror organization. The West encouraged Lebanon, both materialistically and morally, to do all that it takes, including destroy most of the camp's building, in order to uproot the terror cancer.

And it happened when the Taliban took over the Swat District in Pakistan. Once again, the West was there to encourage the army to use a firm hand against the terror cancer.

Until it comes to Israel. Then the West supports Israel's right to defend itself, as long as it goes to war with its hands tied.

When Hamas turns the civil population into a human shield, when it builds bunkers and tunnels under apartment buildings, when it stashes rockets under mosques, hospitals and schools, and when its television channel calls, these days too, as it has in recent years, for the annihilation of Jews – then the "massacre" claims are a reward for Hamas.

And it’s most fascinating that when some of the Arab states want Israel to crush Hamas, because they are afraid that the radical Islam's killing industry will reach them too, that's when the West encourages terror.

On the military level, Israel has reached impressive achievements. On the strategic level, the international response rewards the jihad camp with points. That's what Hamas hoped would happen. That's exactly what happened.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555284,00.html

Edited August 6, 2014 by OriZ

[OriZ 3,157]

Over the course of the IDF's month-long Operation Protective Edge in the Gaza Strip, military officials have repeatedly stressed that many of the 3,356 rocket fired by Hamas were launched from sites surrounded by civilians including hospitals and schools.

Though most foreign reporters seemingly avoided reporting on such claims, some journalists have now returned home and without the threat of violent backlash from Hamas, have begun airing video blatantly showing militants firing rockets from civilan populated areas.

France 24 aired just such a report in which rockets were launched just behind their reporter who then filmed children gathering around the launch site and pointed out a UN flag perched on a nearby building.

Indian news station NDTV also aired a report Tuesday in which their journalist in Gaza apparently filmed Hamas militants assembling and firing a rocket from a small area between hotels and other residential structures.

The video was taken sometime over the last two days and aired only after the reporter left Gaza. This seems to touch on the reason that reporters have been hesitant to film or photograph Hamas militants since some claim that Hamas would harm them if they were seen photographing or filming certain events.

The Indian journalist took to Twitter after his report aired and said, "In Gaza, we reported what we saw - Hamas assembling rocket or terrible toll on Gaza's children. No spin, no agendas. Let's keep it that way."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555419,00.html

As far as the casualties go this is exactly like 2009 - when Hamas claimed it only had a couple dozens of members die, while the rest were civilians. Israel at the time - just like today said the true number was closer to 900. Months later - after everyone already accepted Hamas' numbers, and after the people of Gaza came to Hamas asking where were all the fighters to protect them? How come everyone that died are civilians? Then Hamas finally said they had over 700 members dead, cause they were trying to protect the Gazans. But by then nobody cared.

And I have posted this before but I think it's important to post it again:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Edited August 6, 2014 by OriZ

[DavenRoxy 1,073]

Waving the flag of support for murdering women and children in their homes, schools, and streets brands one as such.

I'll stick with what I believe and was taught - that people, anywhere and everywhere, have a right to personal freedom, property, and equal protection under law and they have the right to fight for it until they get it.

I don't side with thieves and I don't side with murderers and I don't side with people who operate under the view that because of who they are and where they are from feel they are entitled to deny others the basic rights that they enjoy for themselves. You pick your side, I'll pick mine.

That was not directed at you, Expat. I don't really know enough about the Gaza conflict to say one way or another, except that I have been given to understand that Hamas are terrorists. And I have grown weary and intolerant of such creatures. They are no good for any side of a conflict, they are simply parasites that need to be eradicated.

When people say Israel "stole" the land they now own, I have no right to say anything about that, because my ancestors did the same thing.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

That was not directed at you, Expat. I don't really know enough about the Gaza conflict to say one way or another, except that I have been given to understand that Hamas are terrorists. And I have grown weary and intolerant of such creatures. They are no good for any side of a conflict, they are simply parasites that need to be eradicated.

When people say Israel "stole" the land they now own, I have no right to say anything about that, because my ancestors did the same thing.

Goebbels would be proud of you, son.

[Hei Guizi 21]

Angry Palestinians Attack Hamas Official Over Gaza Destruction

Hamas spokesman beaten by Gaza residents, who blame Hamas for the killing and destruction they suffered.

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By Dalit Halevy

First Publish: 8/5/2014, 11:44 AM

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri

Reuters

Palestinian Arab sources said Tuesday that Gaza residents attacked Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri Saturday evening, near the Shifa Hospital.

Abu Zuhri had arrived at the hospital for an interview with a news outlet.

The residents blamed Hamas for the death of family members and for destruction of their homes. Armed Hamas terrorists from the Izzedine al-Kassam Brigades extricated Abu Zuri and arrested the angry residents.

Arabic website vetogate.com said that reporters in Gaza are well aware of the incident but are afraid to report it, because Hamas's security agency could go after them if they do.

A week ago, Palestinian sources reported that over 30 Palestinians were executed by Hamas, most of them in the Shejaiya neighborhood. Hamas claimed that they were collaborators with Israel.

Channel 10 said that Hamas executed 20 residents of Shejaiya who had dared demonstrate against Hamas.

Rockets were fired at Israel from next to Shifa Hospital during the fighting in Gaza, and Hamas's leadership hid under it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That was not directed at you, Expat. I don't really know enough about the Gaza conflict to say one way or another, except that I have been given to understand that Hamas are terrorists. And I have grown weary and intolerant of such creatures. They are no good for any side of a conflict, they are simply parasites that need to be eradicated.

When people say Israel "stole" the land they now own, I have no right to say anything about that, because my ancestors did the same thing.

Hang on, in the other thread you were accusing me of being 'Pro-Hamas' simply for expressing concern about the level of death and destruction in Gaza and the cavalier attitude expressed by the Israeli authorities and some posters on this site to gloss over it.

Just what is being 'Pro-Hamas'? To me, that would go something like "Goooo Hamas, destroy those Israeli cockroaches". I do not want to see Israel destroyed. I do however, want to see and end to people trying to justify unjustifiable things - like the dude on the other page talking about civilian deaths as 'trimming the hedge'. I wonder whether or not you would take issue with that, or if your position on the debate is motivated by your personal feelings towards other posters.

[OriZ 3,157]

Goebbels would be proud of you, son.

So wait, now saying a terror group should be eradicated is the same as being a Nazi? Nice, man...the left has now officially and completely lost it.

I can't speak for anyone else and maybe they were talking about more than Hamas but I would hope not as I personally wish no harm upon ordinary Palestinian civilians, as I've said before I have quite a few friends there.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

So wait, now saying a terror group should be eradicated is the same as being a Nazi? Nice, man...the left has now officially and completely lost it.

I can't speak for anyone else and maybe they were talking about more than Hamas but I would hope not as I personally wish no harm upon ordinary Palestinian civilians, as I've said before I have quite a few friends there.

Some here were indeed talking about more than Hamas. And even if they weren't, dehumanizing people is what the kind of language I replied to is meant to do. Dehumanizing people is an art that one Joseph Goebbels perfected. Hence my comment.

I imagine that if one queried the Palestinians, one might find that they indeed feel terrorized by Israel. And I can see why they might feel that way. Is it then not reasonable to expect - following that line of thinking - that they might wish to eradicate the very nation that terrorizes them?

[Expat1 971]

We are not going to agree on this.. You think I don't care about Palestinians an am immoral and I think people like you make the situation worse by giving reasonable spin to those who put civilians in harms way.. Lets move along.

You're one to talk. You're puking up reasonable spin for people who strangle their rape victims then stand up and try to convince themselves (and others) that "it was self-defense because they scratched my face while I was doing it"

Get real. One side is either on land they own and where they belong or locked up in prison camps. The other side isn't.

You're speaking up for the side that isn't.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Expat1

[Expat1 971]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555419,00.html

As far as the casualties go this is exactly like 2009 - when Hamas claimed it only had a couple dozens of members die, while the rest were civilians. Israel at the time - just like today said the true number was closer to 900. Months later - after everyone already accepted Hamas' numbers, and after the people of Gaza came to Hamas asking where were all the fighters to protect them? How come everyone that died are civilians? Then Hamas finally said they had over 700 members dead, cause they were trying to protect the Gazans. But by then nobody cared.

And I have posted this before but I think it's important to post it again:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-Israel

Your story would have better credibility if it was not in direct contradiction to the stories being reported by foreign aid workers.

[Expat1 971]

That was not directed at you, Expat. I don't really know enough about the Gaza conflict to say one way or another, except that I have been given to understand that Hamas are terrorists. And I have grown weary and intolerant of such creatures. They are no good for any side of a conflict, they are simply parasites that need to be eradicated.

When people say Israel "stole" the land they now own, I have no right to say anything about that, because my ancestors did the same thing.

Everyone has the right to look at what is happening and speak about it. Is eradicating one people to make room for another right or wrong?

As far as Hamas being "terrorists" they are systematically being targeted in their homes with their families, one after the other. This is not a terrorist act in itself?