Israel-Gaza conflict: What has Israel achieved in 26 bloody days?

[Boiler 45,743]

Haven't actually said a word about "Israel's right to exist".

Already said Israel has internationally recognized borders but doesn't belong in the areas that the UN has declared occupied territories and has categorically ruled that Israel does not have rights to.

Already said that as long as Israel is there and as long as Israel occupies these areas and as long as Israel engages in human rights violations in these areas then the people who live there have a right to defend themselves from this occupation

Already said that killing civilians in these occupied areas and settled areas outside internationally recognized borders does NOT constitute, in any way, shape, or form "self-defense". It is terrorism with a goal of expanding borders.

As to your "further information" who cares? A hotel was bombed. I listed several other terrorist bombings as well. Car bomb at Damascus gate. Truck bomb Jaffa Town Hall. Semiramis Hotel bomb. Truck bomb Jaffa gate. Bomb at Ramia market. Bomb placed in Haifa garage. All in the spirit of declaring their independence and forming their new nation. All listed to point out that Israel originally formed their nation using terrorism with goal of expanding borders and all listed to point out a pattern that has never stopped. This pattern listed was to drive home the point that Israel is not and never has been interested in peace and always has engaged in expansion by systematically targeting civilians, which is terrorism with the goal of expanding borders.

I do acknowledge the borders set out for Israel. I do not acknowledge their right to either occupy, settle in, or expand beyond those borders and as long as Israel is using violence to hold even a single square inch of territory then Israel is not entitled to a cent of our support. I believe we should stop funding, arming, and supporting the terrorist pattern of targeting civilians for purposes of expansion until Israel (who has never, ever stopped expanding this way) lifts the blockades, recognizes that the Palestinians ALSO have a right to their own nation, and returns to their borders.

As to you personally - I categorically acknowledge your right to enjoy all the freedoms in your new location, including your right to personally defend yourself, your property, and your family and would never dream of denying you that right because of who you are or where you came from. I do not acknowledge your right to settle in the US, eyeball your neighbor's property, and start moving your fences over just because of who you are and where you came from and I do acknowledge the right of your neighbor to respond to such actions "with prejudice" as I acknowledge your right to do so if your neighbor does the same.

I hope that you pick up that principle, learn it, embrace it, and apply the concept of equal protection under the law not only to yourself but to everyone else.

I realize that you are not the sharpest crayon in the box but that is the summary of my position. Hope that lifts your fog of confusion.

What about the Right to Return.

[Expat1 971]

What about the Right to Return.

I'm not sure that what happens inside of the previously referenced internationally recognized borders was ever in question and if those borders are not recognized by either side we certainly need to ensure that this quickly happens. In the past we have done it for Israel however at this time and in the recent past Israel has shown an aggressive and consistant pattern of not respecting these borders.

As to the "right to return" and settle on land outside those borders they have the same right as we do wherever our ancestors came from. Answer: None.

Unless someone here is advocating that one group of people are entitled to special treatment because of who they are?

Historically and based on what I have been told and taught about Jewish history this assumption has been a fundamental problem and indeed the practice of some of the "master race" teachings in the Talmud (some of which I use to twist tails here on this board) among the more conservative groups of the Jewish community have made these communities very uninvited by other societies.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Expat1

[Expat1 971]

and I also have something else better than you. I have first hand stories from my own blood, my grandmother, who came with her family from Russia in the late 20's. In Russia they were wealthy, they had everything, but the Russians told them they needed to leave, without taking anything.

See here is the difference between you and me. Unlike YOUR grandmother MY grandmother finishes the story with the why. Those who do not learn from history are forced, over and over again, to repeat it.

As to Russia where your grandmother was from

Local economic conditions (such as ancestral debts owed to moneylenders) are thought to have contributed significantly to the rioting, especially with regard to the participation of the business competitors of local Jews and the participation of railroad workers. It has been argued that this was actually more important than rumours of Jewish responsibility for the death of the Tsar

There is more history on what led up to the riots against the Jews in Russia. Learn or not. I have not a whit of care if you do. My orgin was Germany and this is what happened in Germany leading up to WWII.

By 1933, German Jews were largely urban, middle class, prosperous in business, and well represented in the professions (especially medicine and law). They were culturally integrated but represented less than 1 percent of the total population.

Some post - WWI history when Germany was actually buried under reparations payments and Germans were suffering from very high inflation

Sir Arthur Bryant the British historian (Unfinished Victory (1940 pp. 136-144):

'It was the Jews with their international affiliations and their hereditary flair for finance who were best able to seize such opportunities.. They did so with such effect that, even in November 1938, after five years of anti-Semitic legislation and persecution, they still owned, according to the Times correspondent in Berlin, something like a third of the real property in the Reich. Most of it came into their hands during the inflation.. But to those who had lost their all, this bewildering transfer seemed a monstrous injustice. After prolonged sufferings they had now been deprived of their last possessions. They saw them pass into the hands of strangers, many of whom had not shared their sacrifices and who cared little or nothing for their national standards and traditions.. The Jews obtained a wonderful ascendancy in politics, business and the learned professions (in spite of constituting) less than one percent of the population.. The banks, including the Reichsbank and the big private banks, were practically controlled by them. So were the publishing trade, the cinema, the theatres and a large part of the press - all the normal means, in fact, by which public opinion in a civilized country is formed.. The largest newspaper combine in the country with a daily circulation of four millions was a Jewish monopoly.. Every year it became harder and harder for a gentile to gain or keep a foothold in any privileged occupation.. At this time it was not the 'Aryans' who exercised racial discrimination. It was a discrimination that operated without violence. It was exercised by a minority against a majority. There was no persecution, only elimination.. It was the contrast between the wealth enjoyed - and lavishly displayed - by aliens of cosmopolitan tastes, and the poverty and misery of native Germans, that has made anti-Semitism so dangerous and ugly a force in the new Europe. .'

I highly doubt that the dry observations of this historian fall under the definition of "anti-Semitism" as it was written during a time when the British and later Americans and Russians were spilling their own blood and dying by the thousands to end it. The facts are what they are. It is a basic right for all to live anywhere in the world and enjoy basic freedoms. It often does not work out with those groups who segregate themselves from the society they live at the expense of others in that society. How many different ways to try this and fail does it take?

[Jacque67 7,328]

Ahh Sir Arthur Bryant. The dude who wrote in Jan 1940 that the Third Reich might produce a " newer and happier Germany in the future".

There were even anti- Semitic British royals during the period that soldiers were spilling their blood. Go figure.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Jacque67

[Expat1 971]

Ahh Sir Arthur Bryant. The dude who wrote in Jan 1940 that the Third Reich might produce a " newer and happier Germany in the future".

There were even anti- Semitic British royals during the period that soldiers were spilling their blood. Go figure.

Seems he referred (at least in this passage) to anti-Semitism as "dangerous and ugly". Go figure.

[Jacque67 7,328]

Seems he referred (at least in this passage) to anti-Semitism as "dangerous and ugly". Go figure.

A wily guy, covering his tracks.

This publication caused him much embarrassment and he bought up unsold copies. The guy was a nostalgic and not much of an historian IMO.

Why did you quote him? It weakens your otherwise interesting arguments.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Jacque67

[Boiler 45,743]

I'm not sure that what happens inside of the previously referenced internationally recognized borders was ever in question and if those borders are not recognized by either side we certainly need to ensure that this quickly happens. In the past we have done it for Israel however at this time and in the recent past Israel has shown an aggressive and consistant pattern of not respecting these borders.

As to the "right to return" and settle on land outside those borders they have the same right as we do wherever our ancestors came from. Answer: None.

Unless someone here is advocating that one group of people are entitled to special treatment because of who they are?

Historically and based on what I have been told and taught about Jewish history this assumption has been a fundamental problem and indeed the practice of some of the "master race" teachings in the Talmud (some of which I use to twist tails here on this board) among the more conservative groups of the Jewish community have made these communities very uninvited by other societies.

The Right to Return refers to anywhere in the area, most Palestinians were displaced from within the 1948/1967 border of Israel.

[Expat1 971]

A wily guy, covering his tracks.

This publication caused him much embarrassment and he bought up unsold copies. The guy was a nostalgic and not much of an historian IMO.

Why did you quote him? It weakens your otherwise interesting arguments.

Random selection actually. There are a variety of sources that all point to the same issues leading up to the persecution of Jews in Germany in the 1930's. If you prefer other sources of record or research:

Sarah Gordon (Hitler, Germans and the "Jewish Question") 'Jews were never a large percentage of the total German population; at no time did they exceed 1% of the population during the years 1871-1933.' But she adds 'Jews were overrepresented in business, commerce, and public and private service.. They were especially visible in private banking in Berlin, which in 1923 had 150 private Jewish banks, as opposed to only 11 private non-Jewish banks.. They owned 41% of iron and scrap iron firms and 57% of other metal businesses.. Jews were very active in the stock market, particularly in Berlin, where in 1928 they comprised 80% of the leading members of the stock exchange. By 1933, when the Nazis began eliminating Jews from prominent positions, 85% of the brokers on the Berlin Stock exchange were dismissed because of their "race".. At least a quarter of full professors and instructors (at German universities) had Jewish origins.. In 1905-6 Jewish students comprised 25% of the law and medical students.. In 1931, 50% of the 234 theatre directors in Germany were Jewish, and in Berlin the number was 80%.. In 1929 it was estimated that the per capita income of Jews in Berlin was twice that of other Berlin residents

Another author:

Arthur Koestler: 'Ullstein's was a kind of super-trust; the largest organization of its kind in Europe, and probably In the world. They published four daily papers in Berlin alone, among these the venerable Vossische Zeitung, founded in the eighteenth century, and the B.Z. am Mittag, an evening paper.. Apart from these, Ullstein's published more than a dozen weekly and monthly periodicals, ran their own news service, their own travel agency, etc., and were one of the leading book publishers. The firm was owned by the brothers Ullstein - they were five, like the original Rothschild brothers, and like them also, they were Jews.' (The God that Failed (1950) ed. RHS Crossman, p 31

Perhaps someone with feet on the actual ground?

Edgar Mowrer, Berlin correspondent for the Chicago Daily News, wrote an anti-German tract called Germany Puts the Clock Back (published as a Penguin Special and reprinted five times between December 1937 and April 1938). He nevertheless notes 'In the all-important administration of Prussia, any number of strategic positions came into the hands of Hebrews.. A telephone conversation between three Jews in Ministerial offices could result in the suspension of any periodical or newspaper in the state.. The Jews came in Germany to play in politics and administration that same considerable part that they had previously won by open competition in business, trade, banking, the Press, the arts, the sciences and the intellectual and cultural life of the country. And thereby the impression was strengthened that Germany, a country with a mission of its own, had fallen into the hands of foreigners.' 'No one who lived through the period from 1919 to 1926 is likely to forget the sexual promiscuity that prevailed.. Throughout a town like Berlin, hotels and pensions made vast fortunes by letting rooms by the hour or day to baggageless, unregistered guests. Hundreds of cabarets, pleasure resorts and the like served for purposes of getting acquainted and acquiring the proper mood..' (pp. 153-4). Bryant describes throngs of child prostitutes outside the doors of the great Berlin hotels and restaurants. He adds 'Most of them (the night clubs and vice-resorts) were owned and managed by Jews. And it was the Jews.. among the promoters of this trade who were remembered in after years.'

Another?

Douglas Reed, Chief Central European correspondent before WWII for the London Times, was profoundly anti-German and anti-Hitler. But nevertheless he reported: 'I watched the Brown Shirts going from shop to shop with paint pots and daubing on the window panes the word "Jew", in dripping red letters. The Kurfrstendamm was to me a revelation. I knew that Jews were prominent in business life, but I did not know that they almost monopolized important branches of it. Germany had one Jew to one hundred gentiles, said the statistics; but the fashionable Kurfrstendamm, according to the dripping red legends, had about one gentile shop to ninety-nine Jewish ones.' (Reed Insanity Fair (1938) p. 152-3). In Reed's book Disgrace Abounding of the following year he notes 'In the Berlin (of pre-Hitler years) most of the theatres were Jewish-owned or Jewish-leased, most of the leading film and stage actors were Jews, the plays performed were often by German, Austrian or Hungarian Jews and were staged by Jewish film producers, applauded by Jewish dramatic critics in Jewish newspapers.. The Jews are not cleverer than the Gentiles, if by clever you mean good at their jobs. They ruthlessly exploit the common feeling of Jews, first to get a foothold in a particular trade or calling, then to squeeze the non-Jews out of it.. It is not true that Jews are better journalists than Gentiles. They held all the posts on those Berlin papers because the proprietors and editors were Jewish' (pp238-9).

Man can't this just go on and on. So this was the situation in Germany in the 1930's. It is not secret. A very wealthy class who had segregated themselves from the rest of society but who were in possession of a very high percentage of national wealth, contrasted by a society who was staggering under reparation payments and had their financial rug yanked from under them by the Depression in America.

In the middle of this a shot was fired by the Jewish community in March, 1937. The Jewish community worldwide declared a boycott of German goods on March 15. There was even a huge rally in Madison Square Garden in the US. Germany viewed this as an economic threat.

Two weeks later, on April 1, beginning with suspending Jewish doctors from public charity services, anti-Jewish laws started to get passed in Germany.

[Expat1 971]

The Right to Return refers to anywhere in the area, most Palestinians were displaced from within the 1948/1967 border of Israel.

Therein lies the question. If the right to return applies to thousands of years ago then denying that right to people displaced in the last hundred years is a bit hypocritical.

[Boiler 45,743]

Therein lies the question. If the right to return applies to thousands of years ago then denying that right to people displaced in the last hundred years is a bit hypocritical.

So that has to be included in any settlement?

[OriZ 3,157]

Well, it's good yet again to clearly see who you are. This is not only about Israel to you and you've made that obvious. As far as your personal insult - I'm not offended cause for one, I look at the source...which is you. And second, I know for a fact it's not true(want to compare IQs?). So, sharpest crayon or not, it's normally the last resort for people that have no good arguments to make to start with personal insults. But on the other hand, I have truth on my side.

As far as the occupied territories go, I have written many times here that while I do not think the settlement project was a really good idea, even an occupying force does have a right to keep its force in the occupied territory which it occupied in a war that was forced upon it, until the circumstances are ripe for an agreement that would guarantee its security, so that it doesn't have to go back and occupy it again in yet another war several years later. If you think Israel can just withdraw unilaterally you're dreaming, all that would do is make it that much easier for Israel's enemies to destroy it. BTW, I started questioning Israel's presence in the west bank when I was 13, you'd be hard pressed to find many 13 year olds with critical thinking anywhere in the world, but like I said you have already proven you are incapable of grasping the complexity of the situation.

The amount of distrust on both sides is not something that can be ignored. And there are many reasons for this distrust. Here's another story for you: My grandfather used to have Arab employees in his company. He treated them really well, was fair to them, last thing you can say is they were disgruntled. Yet someday he overheard them talking about killing him. Of course he fired them and that was foiled, but do you know how many Arabs/Palestinians killed their employers in Israel? For a while it was actually Hamas asking people who wanted to join it and become members to prove themselves by doing that. You want to tell me someone that asks someone to stab their employer in the back(sometimes quite literally, while they were making coffee) - an innocent person that has done nothing wrong - is not a terror organization?

Want some more back stabbing stories? How about my gram(yes, that pesky gram again) that had a lady working for her, not just cleaning but helped her out with many things, got paid really well...while it looked like Israel was going to stay it was all going well...but then came the Yom Kippur war and the Arabs thought this is the end of Israel. Until that day, she considered her a friend - not just an employee. But that day, she came into the house with a couple other people, walked through it like it was hers, told my gram 'you see that room? that's gonna be mine', 'see this room - that's gonna be so and so'....of course she was fired.

I can go on and on but I'm tired of wasting my time on people who don't get it.

Jews will never sacrifice their security again. Learn to live with it.

Edited August 16, 2014 by OriZ

[OriZ 3,157]

[Jacque67 7,328]

Random selection actually. There are a variety of sources that all point to the same issues leading up to the persecution of Jews in Germany in the 1930's. If you prefer other sources of record or research:

Sarah Gordon (Hitler, Germans and the "Jewish Question") 'Jews were never a large percentage of the total German population; at no time did they exceed 1% of the population during the years 1871-1933.' But she adds 'Jews were overrepresented in business, commerce, and public and private service.. They were especially visible in private banking in Berlin, which in 1923 had 150 private Jewish banks, as opposed to only 11 private non-Jewish banks.. They owned 41% of iron and scrap iron firms and 57% of other metal businesses.. Jews were very active in the stock market, particularly in Berlin, where in 1928 they comprised 80% of the leading members of the stock exchange. By 1933, when the Nazis began eliminating Jews from prominent positions, 85% of the brokers on the Berlin Stock exchange were dismissed because of their "race".. At least a quarter of full professors and instructors (at German universities) had Jewish origins.. In 1905-6 Jewish students comprised 25% of the law and medical students.. In 1931, 50% of the 234 theatre directors in Germany were Jewish, and in Berlin the number was 80%.. In 1929 it was estimated that the per capita income of Jews in Berlin was twice that of other Berlin residents

Another author:

Arthur Koestler: 'Ullstein's was a kind of super-trust; the largest organization of its kind in Europe, and probably In the world. They published four daily papers in Berlin alone, among these the venerable Vossische Zeitung, founded in the eighteenth century, and the B.Z. am Mittag, an evening paper.. Apart from these, Ullstein's published more than a dozen weekly and monthly periodicals, ran their own news service, their own travel agency, etc., and were one of the leading book publishers. The firm was owned by the brothers Ullstein - they were five, like the original Rothschild brothers, and like them also, they were Jews.' (The God that Failed (1950) ed. RHS Crossman, p 31

Perhaps someone with feet on the actual ground?

Edgar Mowrer, Berlin correspondent for the Chicago Daily News, wrote an anti-German tract called Germany Puts the Clock Back (published as a Penguin Special and reprinted five times between December 1937 and April 1938). He nevertheless notes 'In the all-important administration of Prussia, any number of strategic positions came into the hands of Hebrews.. A telephone conversation between three Jews in Ministerial offices could result in the suspension of any periodical or newspaper in the state.. The Jews came in Germany to play in politics and administration that same considerable part that they had previously won by open competition in business, trade, banking, the Press, the arts, the sciences and the intellectual and cultural life of the country. And thereby the impression was strengthened that Germany, a country with a mission of its own, had fallen into the hands of foreigners.' 'No one who lived through the period from 1919 to 1926 is likely to forget the sexual promiscuity that prevailed.. Throughout a town like Berlin, hotels and pensions made vast fortunes by letting rooms by the hour or day to baggageless, unregistered guests. Hundreds of cabarets, pleasure resorts and the like served for purposes of getting acquainted and acquiring the proper mood..' (pp. 153-4). Bryant describes throngs of child prostitutes outside the doors of the great Berlin hotels and restaurants. He adds 'Most of them (the night clubs and vice-resorts) were owned and managed by Jews. And it was the Jews.. among the promoters of this trade who were remembered in after years.'

Another?

Douglas Reed, Chief Central European correspondent before WWII for the London Times, was profoundly anti-German and anti-Hitler. But nevertheless he reported: 'I watched the Brown Shirts going from shop to shop with paint pots and daubing on the window panes the word "Jew", in dripping red letters. The Kurfrstendamm was to me a revelation. I knew that Jews were prominent in business life, but I did not know that they almost monopolized important branches of it. Germany had one Jew to one hundred gentiles, said the statistics; but the fashionable Kurfrstendamm, according to the dripping red legends, had about one gentile shop to ninety-nine Jewish ones.' (Reed Insanity Fair (1938) p. 152-3). In Reed's book Disgrace Abounding of the following year he notes 'In the Berlin (of pre-Hitler years) most of the theatres were Jewish-owned or Jewish-leased, most of the leading film and stage actors were Jews, the plays performed were often by German, Austrian or Hungarian Jews and were staged by Jewish film producers, applauded by Jewish dramatic critics in Jewish newspapers.. The Jews are not cleverer than the Gentiles, if by clever you mean good at their jobs. They ruthlessly exploit the common feeling of Jews, first to get a foothold in a particular trade or calling, then to squeeze the non-Jews out of it.. It is not true that Jews are better journalists than Gentiles. They held all the posts on those Berlin papers because the proprietors and editors were Jewish' (pp238-9).

Man can't this just go on and on. So this was the situation in Germany in the 1930's. It is not secret. A very wealthy class who had segregated themselves from the rest of society but who were in possession of a very high percentage of national wealth, contrasted by a society who was staggering under reparation payments and had their financial rug yanked from under them by the Depression in America.

In the middle of this a shot was fired by the Jewish community in March, 1937. The Jewish community worldwide declared a boycott of German goods on March 15. There was even a huge rally in Madison Square Garden in the US. Germany viewed this as an economic threat.

Two weeks later, on April 1, beginning with suspending Jewish doctors from public charity services, anti-Jewish laws started to get passed in Germany.

Well you were busy googling.

And you think these weren't anti Semitic views. You have lost my respect. Carry on.

[Expat1 971]

So that has to be included in any settlement?

If this has ever been brought to the table I certainly am not aware of it. The areas noted as "occupied" under the UN resolution are the only areas that have been made part of recent settlement terms.

[Expat1 971]

Well you were busy googling.

And you think these weren't anti Semitic views. You have lost my respect. Carry on.

Bonus points and MY respect if you can identify which of these "anti-Semitic" views were actually written by JEWISH authors.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Expat1