Israel-Gaza conflict: What has Israel achieved in 26 bloody days?

[OriZ 3,157]

There's no point arguing with Expat. He does not seem to grasp the fact that Hamas wants Israel gone, and that if Israel just up and left the territories tomorrow the conflict would not be over. It can never be unilateral and without security measurements, cause that would be sacrificing security in the hands of other people's good will, and we've seen how that worked out - especially but not only for Jews - all throughout history. You do not get more naive than that, especially what Israel's lovely neighbors tried to put it through even before occupying those lands in 1967. But lets ignore history and learn nothing from it.

[decocker 7,198]

But lets ignore history and learn nothing from it.

i thought that's what was already going on..

[Boiler 45,751]

Man, those people need a brain transplant:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4557982,00.html

In the UK that is called shop lifting under a flag of convenience.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

There's no point arguing with Expat. He does not seem to grasp the fact that Hamas wants Israel gone, and that if Israel just up and left the territories tomorrow the conflict would not be over. It can never be unilateral and without security measurements, cause that would be sacrificing security in the hands of other people's good will, and we've seen how that worked out - especially but not only for Jews - all throughout history. You do not get more naive than that, especially what Israel's lovely neighbors tried to put it through even before occupying those lands in 1967. But lets ignore history and learn nothing from it.

If were talking about history there is plenty of evidence that violence doesn't stop extremism, it perpetuates it...

Edited August 13, 2014 by Hail Ming!

[Boiler 45,751]

If were talking about history there is plenty of evidence that violence doesn't stop extremism, it perpetuates it...

The Middle East is proof positive, can not help laughing every time I hear religion of peace.

To be fair it was not much different beforehand.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The religion of peace is a meme for fascist denunciation of the entire Muslim world... 1/4 of the world's population .

A person would be bigoted for saying Americans are ignorant... And that's only 300,000,000 people...

[OriZ 3,157]

Ask yourself this. Even if Hamas and the smaller terror organizations in the west bank and Gaza miraculously decided that if tomorrow morning Israel withdraws they will never attack it again - which will never happen - but lets pretend it will. Take a look around - all the instability in countries like Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Afghanistan etc...Do you really think a Palestinian regime will be stable enough to prevent that from happening there? Hell, Fatah could not even prevent Hamas from taking over Gaza...the last thing Israel needs is Isis on its border. That's why it's ridiculous to think Israel could just withdraw without the proper security arrangements - even Ahmed Yassin - one of Hamas' founders - said as I have posted here the other day that such thing would be an act of madness. He said that in 1988 - 17 years before Israel left Gaza and proved him right.

The difference between Expat and I is that he doesn't understand the complexity of the conflict. To him it's all simple - as long as Israel is there Hamas has legitimacy to kill innocent Israelis and if Israel left then there would be nothing but eternal peace.

To that I say........LOL.

[Karee 4,190]

i thought that's what was already going on..

At least someone else gets the irony of the whole thing.

[OriZ 3,157]

You guys can sit here and talk about the irony all day long, there is no comparison at all, you are looking at the wrong side, and the irony is you don't get that.

Edited August 13, 2014 by OriZ

[decocker 7,198]

this isn't about sides, i think that may be part of the misunderstanding.

[OriZ 3,157]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB6Hbpp5K1U

[OriZ 3,157]

Hamas executed dozens of diggers responsible for its extensive tunnel system in past weeks, fearing the workers would reveal the site locations to Israel, a report on the Mako website’s army blog said.

The tunnelers, many of whom constructed the tunnels over the course of months, would dig for day, and received a monthly wage of $150-$300, according to the blog.

Sources in Gaza told the website that Hamas took a series of precautions to prevent information from reaching Israel. The terror organization would reportedly blindfold the excavators en route to the sites and back, to prevent them from recognizing the locations. The tunnels were strictly supervised by Hamas members, and civilians were kept far from the sites.

M., a former tunnel digger and Israeli collaborator, told the website that Hamas would strip search the workers to ensure they had no recording devices or cameras hidden on them.

“The people we met had their faces covered; no one knew them by their real names, it was all codes and first names. They didn’t want to take the risk that some of the diggers were collaborating with Israel,” he said.

A tunnel entrance, within a civilian home, found by Golani soldiers in the northern Gaza Strip (photo credit: IDF Spokesperson’s Unit/ Flash 90)

After the tunnels were completed, dozens were reportedly executed to prevent intelligence leaks to Israel.

“Anyone they suspected might transfer information to Israel on the tunnels was killed by the military wing,” a different source said. “They were very cruel.”

In 2012, a Journal of Palestine Studies article claimed 160 Palestinian children were killed while working on Hamas’s tunnel system.

A soldier leading journalists through a tunnel in Khan Yunis. (screen capture: Walla! News)

The digging of tunnels began four years ago and has demanded 40 percent of Hamas’s budget, The Times of Israel has learned.

Tunnel diggers have been using electric or pneumatic jackhammers, advancing 4-5 meters a day. The tunnels found were reportedly mostly dug 18-25 meters (60-82 feet) underground, though one was discovered at a depth of 35 meters (115 feet). “That’s like a 10-story building underground,” one expert said.

Digging requires engineering and geological expertise, with tunnels usually dug through sandy soil, their roof supported by a more durable level of clay. As they are dug, the tunnels are reinforced by concrete panels, manufactured locally in workshops adjacent to each tunnel. These workshops have also been targeted by the IDF throughout its military operation.

Read more: Hamas said to have executed dozens of tunnel diggers | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-said-to-have-executed-dozens-of-tunnel-diggers/#ixzz3AEjItEYM

Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

[Expat1 971]

17 years before Israel left Gaza and proved him right.

The difference between Expat and I is that he doesn't understand the complexity of the conflict.

To that I say........LOL.

The difference between you and I is this: "The United Nations, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs continues to consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip as Israel controls Gaza Strip's airspace, territorial waters and controls the movement of people or goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea."

So yes we are different. You believe that putting people behind walls and under siege is an acceptable, peaceful practice and that they have no right to break the siege. I, and a very large part of the rest of the world, do not.

On January 31, 2012 the United Nations independent "International Fact-Finding Mission on Israeli Settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory" filed a report stating that Israeli settlement led to a multitude of violations of Palestinian human rights.

You and I also disagree on this. Flagrant violation of human rights is not a practice of a civil, peaceful society and when a people is subject to violation of their human rights then they have the right to fight the violators.

Binyamin Netanyahu who said in a broadcast statement: "As prime minister of Israel, I will not allow the hundreds of thousands of Israelis who live in the West Bank, Golan Heights and our united capital Jerusalem to be harmed. We will not accept any external diktats about our borders. This matter will only be settled in direct negotiations between the parties."

You and I disagree on this: The region is not a bank or pawnshop. It is not peaceful to take property then "negotiate by force" for it later.

You probably believe that you "left Gaza and look how bad these people still are". I believe that calculating and limiting food supplies to the bare minimum of total calories that prevents malnutrition is something that the worst of societies will do. Are you kidding yourself here?

In October 2012, an Israeli court forced Israel's Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) to release a document that detailed "red lines" for "food consumption in the Gaza strip" during the 2007 blockade. According to the COGAT, the document was a rough draft, and never actually implemented. He want n further to say that there was never even any discussion after the document had been drafted. The document calculates the minimum number of calories necessary to keep Gazans from malnutrition and avoid a humanitarian crisis. This number was converted to a number of daily truckloads, the number being decreased to account for food produced in Gaza, and further on the basis of "culture and experience" of the Gazans. This reduction, if implemented, would have resulted in an increase in sugar and a decrease in fruits, vegetables, milk, and meat.Gisha, an Israeli human-rights group, said that in fact the number of truckloads allowed into Gaza was less than stipulated in the calculation. The UN said that if the policy was intended to cap food imports, it would go against humanitarian principles. The body responsible for the calculation said its intent was to ensure no shortages occur, not to cap food imports. Israeli officials now acknowledge the restrictions were partly meant to pressure Hamas by making the lives of Gazans difficult.

You and I disagree on this: Israel does not have the right to force themselves between countries and force their way into becoming their bankers. Who the hell do they think they are?

In November 2010, the Israeli government allowed Gaza to resume agricultural exports, while still banning industrial exports. Shortly afterward, Gazan farmers began exporting strawberries, peppers, carnations, and cherry tomatoes. The exports travel to Europe via Israel, and Israel then transfers the money to agricultural cooperatives, which in turn pay the Palestinian farmers.

Allowed? Really? Because you said earlier "hey they are out, Gaza is free, but look they are still bad people". So what Israel is just "managing their money for them?"

Get this: Israel never left, Israel never even TRIED to make peace, so good god stop flagrantly lying on this board about it. Any one of us would give the finger and worse to any of these actions imposed on us.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Expat1

[OriZ 3,157]

"Leave my people alone, you and the other idiots..."....lol this guy must be reading the VJ forums

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1qpaWTu0eU

I find it astonishing that the people on this forum seem to support Hamas more than most of the Arabs or even the Palestinians themselves do. Talk about lack of understanding of a complex situation.

[OriZ 3,157]

The Western media have found Hamas. A month into the group’s mini-war with Israel, journalists have begun publishing images of Hamas fighters and reports on its human-shield tactics and intimidation of journalists. Whatever the reason—Hamas PR savvy, media incompetence, or the fear of retribution—it is astounding that the discovery has taken this long.

The Gaza Strip, after all, is just 25 miles tip-to-toe and seven miles at its widest. More than 700 journalists went there to cover Israel's ground offensive, during which Hamas fired more than 3,500 rockets into Israel—an average of more than 100 a day.

Still, since Israel launched its operation on July 8, the media focus has barely shifted from the loss of life in the Strip. That emphasis is understandable: Images of dead and wounded civilians are heartbreaking.Forty-three percent of Gaza’s population is under 14 (and half under 18), meaning the brunt of force is borne primarily by the young.

Moreover, Hamas has waged a sophisticated, even brilliant propaganda war. “Anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from Gaza or Palestine,” the group told Gazans in a public-service announcement, “before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank.” Hamas enjoined civilians to use the phrase “innocent civilians” as much as possible when speaking with journalists.

Hamas launches rockets from the Strip’s most densely populated locales—chiefly Gaza City, Beit Hanoun in the north, and Khan Younis in the south—and tells fighters to fire from sensitive locations like schools,churches, mosques, UN buildings and hospitals. It’s a win-win strategy: If Israel is deterred, Hamas fighters and infrastructure are preserved; if Israel is not, the attendant civilian casualties will be a propaganda coup.

Hamas’s media strategy is exemplified by its use of Gaza City's Shifa hospital. There, in one of the conflict’s worst-kept secrets, the group’s leadership has prosecuted the war from an underground bunker. Reporters were denied entry to the bunker and instead invited to a media center in the hospital courtyard. There, journalists seeking interviews with Hamas officials were obligated to line up, in prime position to snap photos as wounded civilians and combatants (the latter inevitably plain-clothed) were rushed into the building.

Let me be clear: I admire the bravery required of war correspondents, and I recognize the onerous conditions under which they work. I see no conspiracy behind the inability of many of them to adequately cover Hamas. Instead, I see a collective failure by much of the world’s press to give an accurate rendering of one party to the Gaza fighting, and to lay bare—whether explicitly or more subtly—the restrictions it enforces upon them in so doing.

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Take the New York Times. Its photojournalist team in Gaza was led by Tyler Hicks—a two-time Pulitzer Prize-winner who has covered asymmetric wars in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya and Syria—and included the award-winningfreelancer Sergrey Ponomarev, whose portfolio includes conflict zones inLebanon, Georgia and Ukraine. It is puzzling, then, that the Times’ four major slide shows on the Gaza conflict show not a single Hamas gunman or rocketeer (see here, here, here and here).

Pressed over the discrepancy last week, Hicks said that “the fighters are virtually invisible to us … It’s impossible to know who’s who. We tried to cover this as objectively as possible.” Earlier, Ponomarev had implied that his “war routine” simply hadn’t left time to look for Hamas fighters: “You leave early in the morning to see the houses destroyed the night before. Then you go to funerals, then to the hospital because more injured people arrive, and in the evening you go back to see more destroyed houses.”

As the war dragged on, Hamas' tactics became harder to ignore. On July 21, the Wall Street Journal’s Nick Casey tweeted his suspicion that patients at Shifa were less than thrilled at Hamas’s use of the place. That tweet, however, was soon deleted without explanation. The next day, a Palestinian journalist wrote in France’s Liberation newspaper that he had been interrogated by Hamas and threatened with expulsion from the Strip. A colleague had even denied him shelter for the night, explaining, “You don’t mess with these people”—Hamas, that is—“during war.” Two days later, the story was pulled at the journalist’s request.

On July 28, explosions hit Shifa and the nearby Shati refugee camp, killing ten people—nine of them children. A Daily Beast report from Gaza, "Israel’s Campaign to Send Gaza Back to the Stone Age," described a scene in which "young children writhed in pain on gurneys waiting for scrambling ER doctors to attend to them following an air strike on the Al Shati Refugee camp. Nine of the 10 people killed in the attack were children and many more were wounded." At the same time, however, an Italian journalist admitted the strike had not been Israel’s work but the result of a misfired Hamas rocket—evidence of which Hamas had quickly cleaned up. He had waited to disclose the information, he wrote, until he was well away from Gaza (and Hamas' retribution).

As the conflict approached the one-month mark, media coverage had perceptibly changed. On August 1, a correspondent for Finnish TV reportedseeing rockets fired from Shifa. Days later, an Indian TV crew, filming from their hotel room, spotted a Hamas team setting up a rocket launcher in a densely populated area nearby. Yet again, the footage was aired only after the crew left Gaza.

But the most damning footage of all came on August 5, from Gallagher Fenwick of the TV network France 24. Several days prior, the correspondent had been reporting live when a Hamas rocket whooshed over his head. Returning later to the launch site, he revealed that it had been a densely populated area 100 meters from a U.N. facility and 50 meters from a hotel frequented by foreign journalists.

Hamas’s rocket attack was triply cynical: Intended to draw fire not only at its own population, but at a putatively neutral UN building and the very Western journalists who had thus far kept the group’s actions largely hidden from view.

On Friday, Anshel Pfeffer, a reporter for Israel’s left-wing Haaretz daily,pressed a number of foreign journalists just back from Gaza about their coverage. Responses ranged from the patently false (Hamas was “too busy fighting to bother” with media, offered one) to the plausible (“I would have got killed,” a veteran war correspondent said).

Israel is having none of it. “This is the A-team of the war-reporting profession,” a Foreign Ministry spokesman lamented. “How did Hamas succeed so completely?”

Other journalists acknowledged regret.

“Looking back, I should have at least tried to report a bit more about the Hamas fighters,” one unnamed reporter told Haaretz while he was still in Gaza.

“The civilian angle took up nearly all the attention, but the Hamas angle should have got more coverage, especially the fact they … had hidden weapons in private homes and mosques,” he said. “That should have been covered better, but there was just so much death all around.”

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119046/gaza-war-media-coverage-lacked-reporting-hamas-fighters-tactics