Visa overstays get amnesty... They break the law, and then get to stay...

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

:thumbs:

Thanks for the testimonial and I also believe that to be the case. The implication being that the DREAMers didn't make it to the front of the line as purported by many. Everyone goes to the end of the line until their number is up.

On the stateside AOS, that would not include K-1s for they are entering the US with the purpose of AOS. It is not a decision made on the spur of the moment.

Adjusting status after having entered as a non-immigrant without immigrant intent is not exactly a spur-of-the-moment decision either. I know that confronted with a changed reality following my trip to the states that time, I carefully weighted the options that were available to me at the time. Adjusting status was the option that worked best given the circumstances. There were hardships involved in any of the options, the fewest were in my staying here (and being stuck here for approximately 2 years initially) and adjusting status. That is why I went down that path. A spur-of-the-moment decision it was not.

[Karee 4,190]

I'm sorry but I don't see the harm of been able to AOS within the US on B1/B2 or from VWP. And I am not talking about a person lying at POE, I am talking about the few that do genuinely go to the US, meet someone, and fall in love. (regardless of the arguments of how can you decided to marry someone after only knowing them for a few weeks)

This rings of the mentality, well I had it hard.. why does it have to be so easy for you??

Frankly because it's abused. How can CBP or USCIS judge intent? It's hard to say how many abuse VWP or B-1/B-2 visas by coming here with the intent to immigrate. IMO it gives an unfair advantage to folks that come from VWP countries or to folks that can obtain tourist visas. Not only that but those AOS petitions get mixed in and put in the queue with folks that came on a K-1 visa.

[JohnR! 5,495]

Adjusting status after having entered as a non-immigrant without immigrant intent is not exactly a spur-of-the-moment decision either. I know that confronted with a changed reality following my trip to the states that time, I carefully weighted the options that were available to me at the time. Adjusting status was the option that worked best given the circumstances. There were hardships involved in any of the options, the fewest were in my staying here (and being stuck here for approximately 2 years initially) and adjusting status. That is why I went down that path. A spur-of-the-moment decision it was not.

Fair enough. I didn't mean to generalize.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Frankly because it's abused. How can CBP or USCIS judge intent? It's hard to say how many abuse VWP or B-1/B-2 visas by coming here with the intent to immigrate. IMO it gives an unfair advantage to folks that come from VWP countries or to folks that can obtain tourist visas. Not only that but those AOS petitions get mixed in and put in the queue with folks that came on a K-1 visa.

As do AOS applications from people that come here as students or employees or whathaveyou and find themselves marrying a US citizen. Are their marriages somehow less valid than those of people that bring their future spouses here as K-1s? How much abuse is there with those? I'd speculate that it is no less than with the other visa categories.

[Karee 4,190]

As do AOS applications from people that come here as students or employees or whathaveyou and find themselves marrying a US citizen. Are their marriages somehow less valid than those of people that bring their future spouses here as K-1s? How much abuse is there with those? I'd speculate that it is no less than with the other visa categories.

There's other requirements for folks that come on employment and student visas. Student visa holders need to have a university that has accepted them. Employment visas holders need a company that has sponsored them. B1/B2 and VWP holders don't need any of that. Just a stated desire to visit the U.S. and in the case of a B1/B2 a quick interview at the foreign consulate. Folks that are willing to jump through the hoops to get a student visa or work visa should be allowed to adjust status, because IMO they've already went through some kind of process to get a long term visa and it's clear they're not coming with the intent to marry and adjust status. If they were, they'd just go through the K-1 process like everyone else.

There should not be a path to a green card simply by coming on a tourist visa or VWP. They should have to file an I-130 or I-129F and then go through the process at the foreign consulate like everyone else. This kinda goes back to an earlier point. If USCIS did their job in an expeditious (that one's for you Gegel) manner, then there probably wouldn't be a lot of folks coming here on a B-1/B-2/VWP wanting to adjust status. They'd just do it the legal way.

There's an entire forum here dedicated to people adjusting status from VWP and B1/B2 visas. That to me is an indication that people are abusing those visas.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Karee

[bubblebubble 16]

Actually, almost all of these accusations are demonstrably false anecdata used to rally people around racist anti-immigration screeds. Careful, you're from the Philippines, so you're brown enough to get caught in that racist anti-immigration rant. Just take a look at the elected officials in Florida and California who assume anyone who isn't lily white is an undocumented immigrant or visitor (busload of undocumented kids - oh wait, YMCA camp kids! Indian nationals petitioning Congress - oh wait, Americans who work for the US government!).

Lots of folks here felt that expedites being granted to the Philippines after Yolanda were unfair; other people had waited so long, why should one group get a benefit another doesn't? That's the same basic tantrum being thrown here; why should one group get a benefit another doesn't? Offhand, because the situations are not the same, and because we have to do something; anyone who tells you that the border can be permanently sealed is selling you something (it is simply not feasible; every single effort to figure out a way to do it has failed because, not feasible). Beyond that, we need that labour. When's the last time you saw a white American out picking tomatoes in Florida? Strawberries in California?

These undocumented immigrants are the very grease that makes our food system possible; I don't know about you, but I like to eat. And because I like to eat, I'd like to do the necessary things to make sure the people growing and picking my food are healthy, able to live outside slavery-like conditions, be treated fairly, and have the freedom to come and go from their home countries.

But by all means-give us your grand solution to fix this problem in a way that's actually feasible. How are you going to: completely seal all borders; provide the necessary labour for our crop systems; provide the workers necessary to make slaughter houses function.

Given that some of the best minds in America have been grappling with this question for, oh, at least 40 years, I eagerly await your genius solution.

In the meantime, may I remind you:

Well, the only problem is the after obtaining their legal status, what percentage of them do you think will still settle for picking and packing your food for you? They are doing this because they do not have other choices. And do you know that there is a legal way to bring workers into the country to do these jobs? And some employers ARE going though this LEGALLY!!!!

Do not make this as your point because it is not valid. The employers are just trying to save every single penny to not to hire people legally from other countries to pack your food. They are breaking the law by hiring Illegal immigrants, period.

As a legal immigrant who obtained different visas before I know lots of immigrants legally in the US, I give you an example: countless of h1b families, F1 families have to live apart in different states, even in different time zones, FOR YEARS to be able to hold on to the keep their legal status! A lot of them, a big number of them also from poor areas like India and rural China, some worse than Mexico, haven't been back to the home country FOR YEARS for the same reason. For h1b holders, most of them worked so hard in college to get to graduate school in the U.S. and have to fight though all the unfairness to secure a job and do not have any job flexibility after that (change job means they are steps back towards their might-happen-in-the-future aos). BTW, they are probably the ones who designed and engineered your computers or your phone you just used to type what I quoted, and secured the internet you just used. Do they deserve the same treatment? Or only your illegal food packing peeps deserve to be treated better?

I talked to a lot of legal lower level workers from Mexico who work really hard jobs and would love to get their lives better. These people deserve the help! Not those who cheat. And BTW if it is really hardship, help them get status through asylum. Kick the other cheaters out! Period.

[JohnR! 5,495]

As do AOS applications from people that come here as students or employees or whathaveyou and find themselves marrying a US citizen. Are their marriages somehow less valid than those of people that bring their future spouses here as K-1s? How much abuse is there with those? I'd speculate that it is no less than with the other visa categories.

And that is at the crux of the immigration issue. There isn't a one-size-fits-all because each case is different from the next. We've come full circle: We can't just deport all these children at the border en masse, nor can we presume to believe that deporting 12million persons would resolve the problem, legally. Each one has a story and each one a different predicament. It is amazing that we've come to such realization with only a few exchanges. Why can't our politicians do the same, since it is the reason we hired them in the first place?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

There's other requirements for folks that come on employment and student visas. Student visa holders need to have a university that has accepted them. Employment visas holders need a company that has sponsored them. B1/B2 and VWP holders don't need any of that. Just a stated desire to visit the U.S. and in the case of a B1/B2 a quick interview at the foreign consulate. Folks that are willing to jump through the hoops to get a student visa or work visa should be allowed to adjust status, because IMO they've already went through some kind of process to get a long term visa and it's clear they're not coming with the intent to marry and adjust status. If they were, they'd just go through the K-1 process like everyone else.

There should not be a path to a green card simply by coming on a tourist visa or VWP. They should have to file an I-130 or I-129F and then go through the process at the foreign consulate like everyone else. This kinda goes back to an earlier point. If USCIS did their job in an expeditious (that one's for you Gegel) manner, then there probably wouldn't be a lot of folks coming here on a B-1/B-2/VWP wanting to adjust status. They'd just do it the legal way.

There's an entire forum here dedicated to people adjusting status from VWP and B1/B2 visas. That to me is an indication that people are abusing those visas.

Define "a lot" in the context you are using it. How many foreign persons are adjusting status after entering as a tourist?

And why is that adjustment process an indication that people are abusing those tourist visas? Are there not legitimate circumstances conceivable that may drive people down that lawful path? I will tell you that there are very legitimate circumstances that exist based on which individuals pursue the lawful adjustment from a tourist status.

[Karee 4,190]

Define "a lot" in the context you are using it. How many foreign persons are adjusting status after entering as a tourist?

And why is that adjustment process an indication that people are abusing those tourist visas? Are there not legitimate circumstances conceivable that may drive people down that lawful path? I will tell you that there are very legitimate circumstances that exist based on which individuals pursue the lawful adjustment from a tourist status.

I don't know the numbers, but like I said there's an entire forum here with a lot of posts dedicated to it, so I'd assume it's pretty common.

I'm sure there's legitimate reasons for doing it. Not wanting to wait around in your home country shouldn't be one of them, which I'd guess is the main reason for most. I don't know about other countries, but it's nearly impossible to get a tourist visa at the Bangkok embassy. One of the reasons is because it's abused. People come to the U.S. with the intent to adjust status from those tourist visas. Probably the same in most countries. Tell them at the visa interview that your going to visit your fiance/husband at the tourist visa interview, and it'll be denied almost every time. Why? Because they don't think you'll return to your country. It'll never be a level playing field between countries for different reasons, but this is one area where they could make things somewhat equal. VWP countries don't even have the interview issue. They just get on a plane and then only have to convince the CBP agent.

[B & G 200]

Frankly because it's abused. How can CBP or USCIS judge intent? It's hard to say how many abuse VWP or B-1/B-2 visas by coming here with the intent to immigrate. IMO it gives an unfair advantage to folks that come from VWP countries or to folks that can obtain tourist visas. Not only that but those AOS petitions get mixed in and put in the queue with folks that came on a K-1 visa.

As yourself just said, its hard to say how many abuse the VWP or B1/B2 visas. What if the numbers are negligible? Hypothetically... for every 500,000 AOS petitions from a K1, there is only 3,000 for VWP or B-visa?

I agree that they have a unfair advantage, but there is no way of changing that. The reason why those countries have been granted the privilege of VWP is because the probability of them coming to the US and illegally staying, is very low. Can you say the same for someone coming from the Philippines?

I am pretty sure that the US, took that into consideration when granting them that privilege.

Which also follows along the lines of reason that the number of abused VWP or B1/B2 visas must be small.

This process isn't fair, it isn't a right, and it can never be equal in its hardship for everyone. Someone marrying someone from Nigeria for example, will never have it as easy as if they married someone from the UK.

[Karee 4,190]

As yourself just said, its hard to say how many abuse the VWP or B1/B2 visas. What if the numbers are negligible? Hypothetically... for every 500,000 AOS petitions from a K1, there is only 3,000 for VWP or B-visa?

I agree that they have a unfair advantage, but there is no way of changing that. The reason why those countries have been granted the privilege of VWP is because the probability of them coming to the US and illegally staying, is very low. Can you say the same for someone coming from the Philippines?

I am pretty sure that the US, took that into consideration when granting them that privilege.

Which also follows along the lines of reason that the number of abused VWP or B1/B2 visas must be small.

This process isn't fair, it isn't a right, and it can never be equal in its hardship for everyone. Someone marrying someone from Nigeria for example, will never have it as easy as if they married someone from the UK.

Of course there's a way of changing it. Close the loophole that allows people to adjust status from a tourist visa or VWP except in extreme hardship cases. Make them apply from their home country like everyone else.

Yes there's a low visa fraud threshold countries must meet for a period of time before they are considered for the VWP program. However, they probably don't count people adjusting status based on marriage when calculating those numbers, because there's nothing illegal about it. I'd assume they count the numbers of people that come on tourist visas and simply don't go back.

I'm not saying that someone from the UK should have it just as hard as someone coming from Nigeria. I'm saying that they should have to go through the same process. If you look at the K-1 visa refusal rates for the UK vs. Nigeria, I'm sure there's a huge difference. That doesn't mean that people from the UK should be able to to use the VWP as a means to immigrate. That's not it's intent, nor should it be.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

As yourself just said, its hard to say how many abuse the VWP or B1/B2 visas. What if the numbers are negligible? Hypothetically... for every 500,000 AOS petitions from a K1, there is only 3,000 for VWP or B-visa?

I agree that they have a unfair advantage, but there is no way of changing that. The reason why those countries have been granted the privilege of VWP is because the probability of them coming to the US and illegally staying, is very low. Can you say the same for someone coming from the Philippines?

I am pretty sure that the US, took that into consideration when granting them that privilege.

Which also follows along the lines of reason that the number of abused VWP or B1/B2 visas must be small.

This process isn't fair, it isn't a right, and it can never be equal in its hardship for everyone. Someone marrying someone from Nigeria for example, will never have it as easy as if they married someone from the UK.

Correct. It's also not fair that some Consulates are very fast in processing finace(e) and/or immigrant visa applications and others are not. Some are tough and others are not. Some Consulates even allow DCF for US spouses where the US citizen does not actually reside in said country giving beneficiaries from those countries an even faster path. That ain't fair either and yet, it's what it is. I have never found myself begrudging another couple for having a faster path than my wife and I did. Honestly, I've got better things to do than worry about that.

[Karee 4,190]

Correct. It's also not fair that some Consulates are very fast in processing finace(e) and/or immigrant visa applications and others are not. Some are tough and others are not. Some Consulates even allow DCF for US spouses where the US citizen does not actually reside in said country giving beneficiaries from those countries an even faster path. That ain't fair either and yet, it's what it is. I have never found myself begrudging another couple for having a faster path than my wife and I did. Honestly, I've got better things to do than worry about that.

The time it takes most consulates to process the visa applications are pretty insignificant compared to the time it takes to get the underlying petition approved. Unless the applicant is put under AP. I'm not begrudging anyone anything, but I'd like it to be as fair as possible.

Your attitude towards this subject is very Republican (I got mine, screw everybody else) You should turn in your DNC membership card at the nearest office as soon as possible.

[B & G 200]

Of course there's a way of changing it. Close the loophole that allows people to adjust status from a tourist visa or VWP except in extreme hardship cases. Make them apply from their home country like everyone else.

Yes there's a low visa fraud threshold countries must meet for a period of time before they are considered for the VWP program. However, they probably don't count people adjusting status based on marriage when calculating those numbers, because there's nothing illegal about it. I'd assume they count the numbers of people that come on tourist visas and simply don't go back.

I'm not saying that someone from the UK should have it just as hard as someone coming from Nigeria. I'm saying that they should have to go through the same process. If you look at the K-1 visa refusal rates for the UK vs. Nigeria, I'm sure there's a huge difference. That doesn't mean that people from the UK should be able to to use the VWP as a means to immigrate. That's not it's intent, nor should it be.

Again.. the mentality of ... I have it so hard.. why should you have it easy?

If someone adjusting status from a VWP or B-visa really disadvantages a K1 filer by increasing their wait for a decision by extreme amounts, then I would understand. But there are no hard numbers to prove that.

Having that loophole, really does no harm to anyone. And wishing that loophole was removed, just because it isn't fair, just sounds petty to me.

[Karee 4,190]

Again.. the mentality of ... I have it so hard.. why should you have it easy?

If someone adjusting status from a VWP or B-visa really disadvantages a K1 filer by increasing their wait for a decision by extreme amounts, then I would understand. But there are no hard numbers to prove that.

Having that loophole, really does no harm to anyone. And wishing that loophole was removed, just because it isn't fair, just sounds petty to me.

It's not any kind of mentality, it's about fairness. Why should people from certain countries be allowed to abuse the system, while others can not.

It allows a group of people who are from certain countries to abuse the system. Coming to the U.S. on on a VWP or B-1/B-2 with the intent of immigrating is illegal. How do you prove intent? Almost impossible.

I don't understand how making things fair for everyone is considered "petty" Everyone should have to go though the same process regardless of which country they happen to be born in. I call that fair.

ETA: Just to be clear coming to the U.S. on a VWB or a tourist visa with the intent on immigrating is considered visa fraud. I don't know how much clearer I can make that. Tough to prove intent, which makes it ripe for abuse.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Karee