Why Is Israel Losing a War It's Winning?

[OriZ 3,157]

There was not a single Israeli in Gaza after the disengagement in 2005. There were talks with Fatah about a sea port, airport, safe crossings, everything they needed and wanted.

Then came Hamas with rockets in 2007. Easy to ignore facts. Might work on others but not on me.

[rlogan 2,036]

Except that won't be that. Hamas is yet to concede Israel's right to exist. An adversary like that needs to be eliminated, not contained.

There you go again with the nebulous "right to exist". Congratulations to the propagandist who thought that deceptive term up.

Absolutely no - not a right to kill someone and take their land. That is not "existing". That is a war crime. So what does "right to exist" mean in terms of Palestinian rights? It is the time-worn principle of ignoring the land theft and persecution, as if it didn't matter, and saying a country has the right to exist without compensating the victims of the crimes committed.

The US was complicit in that crime and it is such a tragedy. Anti-Jewish bigotry/racism died not because Israel was created, but because Hitler was crushed and Jewish people have full citizenship & civil rights where they had been persecuted before. That is a wonderful thing. But this forcible taking of land - that's wrong. Settling that injustice will remove the motivation for revenge on Israel.

[mota bhai 2,675]

Hamas doesn't seek compensation for the land taken from them. Hamas seeks the destruction of the Jewish state and every Jewish person living in its borders.

That can't be negotiated with. That can only be surrendered to, or destroyed.

[Karee 4,190]

Hamas doesn't seek compensation for the land taken from them. Hamas seeks the destruction of the Jewish state and every Jewish person living in its borders.

That can't be negotiated with. That can only be surrendered to, or destroyed.

You can use the west bank as an example of what happens when you negotiate with Israel. They build more settlements and kick more people of their land. It's pretty clear by the actions of the Israeli govt. that they have no interest in peace, despite what they say publicly. Why should they? They have uncle sam backing them up no matter what they do.

ETA: IMO Israel blew a golden opportunity to show what happens when have peace in the west bank. They could've done the right thing and and at a bare minimum halted the settlement building. They didn't even do that. They kept building away. What message does that send?

Edited July 27, 2014 by Karee

[mota bhai 2,675]

You can use the west bank as an example of what happens when you negotiate with Israel. They build more settlements and kick more people of their land. It's pretty clear by the actions of the Israeli govt. that they have no interest in peace, despite what they say publicly. Why should they? They have uncle sam backing them up no matter what they do.

Not all people can be peacefully coexisted with. There is zero reason to believe the Arabs will ever accept the right of Israel to exist on land they allege was stolen from them. Remember, they've been against the state of Israel since well before the Israelis won the WB and Gaza.

So what choice is there? Either they pack up and move to Baja California or they stay put and do what they know needs to be done.

Edited July 27, 2014 by mota bhai

[OriZ 3,157]

Hello, Fathi. This week, for just a few minutes, we managed to establish contact again. You told me about the great suffering, the bombings, the dead. It pained me. We have known better days. We had dreams.

The years go by. In the meantime, several things have happened in the Muslim world – in Somalia, in Nigeria, in Pakistan, in Syria, in Iraq. This is the rule, Fathi: Every place where one of the extensions of jihad grows stronger turns into a center of bloodshed. Taliban, Hamas, Boko Haram, al-Qaeda, ISIS, al-Shabab, jointly and severally, promise you nothing but bloodshed and suffering.

And one more thing happened: Hamas violently seized the Gaza Strip. Article 7 of the Hamas charter talks about annihilating the Jews. Annihilation, no less. When we see what the jihadists are doing in the world – to Muslims, not to Jews – we are entitled to be afraid. Those who have adopted a Nazi ideology should not complain that the other side is trying to defeat them.

A week ago, Fathi, ISIS killed 270 people in the Syrian city of Homs. In the beginning of the week, 121 people were murdered in Damboa, Nigeria. Another 16 were murdered on the Egypt-Libya border. I could go on, Fathi. The list is long.

They join thousands of others who have been murdered in recent weeks. Muslims murdering Muslims. The jihad is massacring you, Fathi. It happens wherever it is. It's happening in Gaza as well. It has been happening for more than 10 years now. It's becoming worse.

Where are the Muslims, Fathi? Why are they keeping quiet? Why is the world silent? Where are the world's left-wing protestors? Why haven't they burned jihad flags? How is it possible that no one has taken to the streets, neither in Paris nor in London, neither in Casablanca nor in Amman?

So please, Fathi, don't say occupation, don't say Israel, don't say blockade. Enough with the lies.

The regular excuse, Fathi, is that you are still furious over the original sin – the 1948 Nakba. Are you serious? Tens of millions of people became refugees in the 1940s. Arab countries deported Jews too, although they did not declare any war. No one has built their entire identity on misery, revenge and terror. Only you.

Do you want more, Fathi? In the past few years, Muslim states have created millions of refugees. The jihad organizations not only kill. They also turn millions into refugees. In Somalia, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Syria. Where is the Muslim protest? Where is the global protest?

Those who take to the streets and burn Israel's flag, those who call the Israeli soldiers murderers, those who dismiss your responsibility and provide you with excuses and justifications, the members of the "forces of progress" from the Israeli and global left, are part of your problem. When they are told that you oppress women, kill innocent people incessantly and fire at population centers, they reply that "there is no comparison."

Do you get that, Fathi? They forgive you because they think you're inferior. Is that what you want?

In the past few years you have been complaining that the siege is suffocating you, that because of the siege there is no construction, no industry, no hope.

The siege is a lie, Fathi. Not only does Israel transfer every week, even these days, hundreds of trucks carrying supplies to the Strip. Why you even had a completely open border with Egypt during the time the Egyptian president was a Muslim Brotherhood member. And what did you do? It turns out that you actually managed to develop two industries: One of rockets and another of tunnels.

Hundreds of millions of dollars have been invested in the Strip, despite the Hamas rule. Where did it go, Fathi? To weapons, to ammunitions, to rockets. Where did thousands of tons of cement go? Not to the construction of factories or schools. It was all wasted on tunnels, in order to kill more Jews.

So don't say siege. Because Hamas could have invested in welfare, in prosperity. It chose to invest in the industry of death and destruction.

And despite all that, Fathi, I want to hold on to a glimmer of hope. Several days ago, , commissioned by the Washington Institute. The result is incredible: An overwhelming majority, 70%, supported a ceasefire and an end to the violence. This is a sign that the majority is sobering up while the foolish, murderous and destructive stubbornness of the jihad organizations continues.

The millions in the Arab countries will not go out to protest for you this time. You know why, Fathi? Because they already know what could happen in their countries if Hamas remains strong. They see the massacre in Iraq and Syria. They know there is no big difference between ISIS and Taliban and Hamas. Even the regular incitement broadcast on al-Jazeera, which has become a Hamas extension, barely affects them.

We need hope. We will not solve all of the conflict's problems now. Let's begin with something a bit more modest. Imagine, Fathi, taking to the streets to demand a ceasefire and an end to the siege under the Quartet conditions (an end to violence and recognizing past agreements). The Jihad and Hamas will refuse. That's what they know how to do. But you must not give up.

They say you are afraid of Hamas. Afraid? Then why are you more excited about terror organizations, which promise you bloodshed?

Please Fathi, listen to what Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said this week on the Al-Aqsa channel: "We aren't leading our people today to destruction. We are leading them to death." Listen to the things aired on your television regularly, on days of calm: "Kill Christians, Jews and communists to the last one."

The Hamas and jihad people don’t only threaten and promise, they also keep their promises. In recent years, the jihad has turned into a monster massacring Muslims incessantly.

Destroying the jihad, Fathi, is in your best interest. It is first of all a Muslim interest. You know how to fight, but it's time to change direction. Otherwise, the jihad will continue using you as cannon fodder. It doesn't know how to do anything else.

Fathi, Israel is forced to defend itself, because no other country would tolerate a terrorist entity, with a Nazi ideology, launching rockets incessantly at a civil population. The majority in Israel does not seek any revenge, oppression or a siege. The majority in Israel sees the difficult images from Gaza, the victims, the innocent people getting killed because Hamas uses them.

There is no joy in us, but real grief. We don't want to kill and don't want to be killed. The demand to demilitarize the Strip is not only for the Israelis, it's also for you. We prefer to have happy neighbors rather than suffering neighbors. We want to be partners, not enemies.

So show some responsibility, Fathi. You can either live with endless suffering under the rule of the jihad (like in Musul) or you can flourish (like in Kurdistan). You hold the keys. Self-deception won't help you.

You are not inferior, Fathi. You deserve more. So start acting and, for a change, do something for yourselves rather than against others.

With pain, and hope for better days.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4549711,00.html

Edited July 27, 2014 by OriZ

[Boiler 45,525]

First you have to define what in the circumstances constitutes a win.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Boiler

[Sousuke 1,214]

Regarding the OP, at least IMO every year I care less and less. By the time i'm 60 I'm sure I'll just change the channel if I see anything regarding Israel or Gaza.

[OriZ 3,157]

Israel's Health Ministry offered humanitarian aid worth millions of shekels to the Gaza Strip, but the Palestinian Authority has refused to accept it.

A senior Health Ministry official told Ynet that the aid is funded out of the ministry's budget, and includes medicine, chemotherapy and medical equipment that are ready to be transferred to the Palestinian Authority, after having been approved by the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories.

The Health Ministry said it would continue efforts to transfer the medical supplies to the Strip.

Meanwhile, the Health Ministry also helped build a field hospital operating at the Erez border crossing by the Medical Corps. The ministry has decided to allow any patient or wounded from the Gaza Strip to receive medical treatment in any of the Israeli hospitals should the need arise.

Earlier this week, Magen David Adom said it offered to send blood donations to the Strip in order to help wounded Palestinians, but the PA refused to accept that offer as well.

"Israel is going through a very difficult time, but we still got supplies from our stocks and budgeted aid worth millions of shekels for the residents of the Strip," Health Minister Yael German told Ynet. "In addition, we offered full medical treatment to the Gaza citizens in any of our hospitals and will continue to offer that."

"The State of Israel has no desire to hurt the people of Gaza. We didn't go to war to kill, but rather to defend the people of Israel, and will continue offering full humanitarian aid to the Palestinians for as long as we can," she added.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4550862,00.html

Edited July 28, 2014 by OriZ

[Boiler 45,525]

http://israelunderattack.tk/

Keep track of the missiles.

[OriZ 3,157]

On Friday, in a dramatic move, the Cabinet voted unanimously against the Kerry proposal. The U.S. Secretary earned this embarrassment. John Kerry is a rolling embarrassment with a snowball's features. The more it rolls, the greater the confusion. The man is full of good will, but with good will you have nothing to do around here. For the Middle East you need completely different properties.

Yesterday I looked at a bunch of European foreign ministers, held together with the same meaning in Paris to try to work out a solution. A distinguished group, respected, black-tie, tailored, civilized people who do not have the slightest idea what this is about. Deep inside, they know that there is a battle of civilizations. Inside Them, they know that Hamas does not want to break the siege on Gaza, cause if that was their intention, they would stop preaching for the destruction of Israel and stop digging tunnels and manufacture rockets. That's it.

Even though they know it, they are enslaved in the cables of political correctness, the automatic majority at the UN of Islamic countries, Islamist minorities swelling in their home, and Arab money. A Solution, from these guys will not come.

Had Israel had a Prime Minister with generous international credit, one that has said "yes" to the Arab peace initiative (with reservations), one who tried to build up Abu - Mazen, instead of destroying him, one that offered a generous and courageous peace deal, and didn't try to dissolve any possible negotiations, he could stand in the face of the world today and say these things:

First, Israel rejects and ignores any attempt by Qatar and Turkey to intervene in political contacts with Hamas. Qatar will be welcome when you stop to fund terrorism and fuel hatred and madness in the Middle East through "Al Jazeera." Turkey will be more than welcome to come down with a sane head of government, not drenched in anti-Semitism.

Second, Israel is not going to stop the operation in Gaza before purging and blowing all the tunnels that were intended to sow death and destruction among our communities, and Israel has no intention of stopping the operation in Gaza before Hamas leaders will be held accountable for their crimes and before any long range rocket and the factories that produce them are located and destroyed. This is what every country would have done in our place. The fact that we are Jews surrounded in the Middle East should not harm our chances to defend ourselves.

Because this is not the current state of affairs, and Israel does not have any such Prime Minister, the cabinet yesterday sat in an attempt to formulate an answer how to continue. Humanitarian ceasefire extended by 4 hours and then 24 hours. The UN has approached to extend it until eight o'clock. In this way, the Europeans are trying to steal a constant ceasefire.

This method they learned from us. This is how we built the settlements. Dunam here, a goat there, and before you realize what's happening, it's too late. For Netanyahu the situation is quite appropriate. He knows there is no chance in the world he could finish the operation before the destruction of the tunnels. In the present situation, the IDF continues operations against the tunnels, then everything is seemingly fine.

Will the Cabinet extend the humanitarian ceasefire? I assume there will be heated debate. Avigdor Lieberman, the right cursor in the current event, will object. I suppose this time Aharonovitz will not enjoy a free vote and join him. Gilad Arden? Good question. Arden is a hawk with an open mind who asks good questions. On the one hand, he is committed to Bibi. On the other hand, to his voters. Arden is a floating vote.

Naftali Bennett? The Credit for the tunnels belongs to him, and in full. Bennett was, really, the first who identified. Today he is already going with Lieberman, demanding to continue the operation. If Arden is with them, they have four out of 8. What would boogie do? Not a simple Dilemma.

What must the prime minister ask himself is, how he prevents another operation in Gaza, in a year. Already now it is hard, the IDF shed until now 40 dead, our best children, heart and soul captivating fighters, one by one, who sacrificed themselves due to the long neglect, turning a blind eye and and self denial for years. During this operation, Hamas fired on helicopters and air planes eight anti-aircraft shoulder-fired missiles. The Missiles missed, mainly due to lack of professional users. Who said this would happen the next time?

Title of my colleague Nahum Barnea in the Friday edition of "Yediot Aharonot", was "how to get out of it"? I very much appreciate Barnea, himself an infantry fighter and is always in the first line, but I disagree on the wording of the question.

"How to get out of it" is the question that Hamas should ask. From the first moment. Not us. And a cease-fire, they had to ask. At first. Not us. The rules have changed in our area, we are dealing with brainwashed savages that pump themselves and their surroundings up with an Ecstasy of death and killing.

The only way to fight these forces is to use full power all at once, all power. If the IDF had entered Gaza on the first day racing in full force and speed ahead, we would have already been after the event. True, it would cost uneasy losses, but it is necessary. Whem we count the dead at the end of the operation, we will come to the conclusion that the price we paid is more expensive, for much lesser goods. Until Hamas understands that Israel is serious and willing to sacrifice in order to destroy it, it will not lay down its arms. It Can not be that an organization directing rockets at the Tel - Aviv on a daily basis, shoots at the sole international airport we have, turned the southern communities into a punching bag, shoots at a nuclear reactor and continues to threaten and growl at the whole world will force us to request cessation of fire. As for the weak, in our environment, there is no hope.

http://www.thepost.co.il/news/new.aspx?pn6Vq=EE&0r9VQ=FLMIF

[MyLittlePony 340]

Does Israel have Nukes? if they do then drop one on Hamas that will solve problem and save money.

[OriZ 3,157]

Dropping a nuke on Hamas is like dropping a nuke on yourself...too close

Besides, that's D-Day weapons. Israel will never use it unless it absolutely has to in order to survive.

Rumor has it the only time it was considered was to be used on Syria during the Yom Kippur war. But it's just a rumor

[GandD 5,966]

The U.S. should invade Canada and take Alberta and Saskatchewan. Just to keep up with world tradition. We can leave them with Quebec, Ontario, B.C. and the eastern maritime provinces.

I don't think he's suggesting we should. I think he's suggesting that this is the most common way, historically, that borders have been established. Would you not agree?

Not all people can be peacefully coexisted with. There is zero reason to believe the Arabs will ever accept the right of Israel to exist on land they allege was stolen from them. Remember, they've been against the state of Israel since well before the Israelis won the WB and Gaza.

So what choice is there? Either they pack up and move to Baja California or they stay put and do what they know needs to be done.

I'm glad you're on board now.

[Karee 4,190]

Just because that's the way it was done 100 years ago, that's not a justification for continuing a flawed policy.