Marco Rubio: Hamas to Blame for Gaza Casualties

[Peikko 1,575]

My conscience is very clean. In fact, I bet I am a much better person than you. Yes, even being in Vermont for over a year one of the most liberal states in the union has not changed my opinion that Israel has a right to defend itself. Some people thought it would "open my eyes". Open my eyes to what exactly? RIP to the brave Israel soldiers who died and god speed. They are doing a sacred duty so that what occured 75 years ago will not happen again.

I bet the Nazis did this, too:

http://unitedwithisrael.org/idf-opens-field-hospital-to-treat-injured-palestinians/

I didn't expect it to be any other way. Two wrongs however do not make a right. Outsiders can see this, clearly some on the inside can not. Your conscience may be untroubled but any killing of civilians is blood on your hands, like it or not.

[OriZ 3,157]

*looks at his hands* nope, don't see any blood on them. In fact, I bet there is much more blood on Hamas sympathizer's hands than on mine. I am not on the inside and have not been for quite some time now. However, I do know many 'outsiders' who completely agree with me, so you saying it does not make it true.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

As I said, there are two contradictory assumptions being made in this sort of rationale.

1) Civilian blood is solely on the hands of Hamas and not at all on the people who are killing them.

2) There is no such thing as a Palestinian Civilian in Gaza because they are complicit with Hamas.

Taking a solely measured view, the entire situation is abhorrent, from both sides. But seriously, trying to justify civilian casualties by blaming them on the other side is a sign of a very skewed moral compass.

There's a collective psychosis going over there. That's the best that can be said and it's why no long term solution is likely forthcoming.

[Peikko 1,575]

*looks at his hands* nope, don't see any blood on them. In fact, I bet there is much more blood on Hamas sympathizer's hands than on mine. I am not on the inside and have not been for quite some time now. However, I do know many 'outsiders' who completely agree with me, so you saying it does not make it true.

There by lies your mistake. I do not sympathise with Hamas and many, many people like me do not. However, I do sympathise with civilian Palestinians who have had no place to go and no options to turn to since the Israel problem was landed in their laps when the Brits withdrew from Palestine. I do understand the idea of creating a Jewish homeland, there was nothing more laudable at the end of the second world war than to do just that, but displacing Arabs to create one was clearly a mistake. There is no clean solution to this, you may think that there is but reality proves you wrong.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Peikko

[Peikko 1,575]

As I said, there are two contradictory assumptions being made in this sort of rationale.

1) Civilian blood is solely on the hands of Hamas and not at all on the people who are killing them.

2) There is no such thing as a Palestinian Civilian in Gaza because they are complicit with Hamas.

Taking a solely measured view, the entire situation is abhorrent, from both sides. But seriously, trying to justify civilian casualties by blaming them on the other side is a sign of a very skewed moral compass.

There's a collective psychosis going over there. That's the best that can be said and it's why no long term solution is likely forthcoming.

Exactly.

[OriZ 3,157]

As I said, there are two contradictory assumptions being made in this sort of rationale.

1) Civilian blood is solely on the hands of Hamas and not at all on the people who are killing them.

2) There is no such thing as a Palestinian Civilian in Gaza because they are complicit with Hamas.

Taking a solely measured view, the entire situation is abhorrent, from both sides. But seriously, trying to justify civilian casualties by blaming them on the other side is a sign of a very skewed moral compass.

There's a collective psychosis going over there. That's the best that can be said and it's why no long term solution is likely forthcoming.

Wow you've shown some great understanding of the situation, have you ever considered being a psychologist?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Perhaps not personalising the issue in your replies would be a good way to keep the thread on track?

I don't think I've said anything controversial here. To me, trying to justify civilian deaths is controversial.

[Peikko 1,575]

Wow you've shown some great understanding of the situation, have you ever considered being a psychologist?

That contributes to the current discussion not one jot but it does seem to underline why you are unable to see the reality of the situation from both sides rather than Israel is right, end of story.

[OriZ 3,157]

That contributes to the current discussion not one jot but it does seem to underline why you are unable to see the reality of the situation from both sides rather than Israel is right, end of story.

You obviously have not read everything I have written, only what fits your agenda. I never claimed Israel was perfect, and I blatantly called the settlement project a mistake. All I've seen from those who claim they do not support Hamas is some mumbling about how shooting rockets into civilian areas or treating their own people the way they are is not right, "but"....

The bottom line is despite some people's attempts to blur the lines and blame Israel for everything that happens, and despite the fact that Israel has made its fair share of mistakes in the west bank, Hamas' actions in Gaza have nothing to do with none of it, and no country would tolerate what Hamas is doing, actually pretty much every other country would react with much more force than Israel. That is the reality everyone here loves to ignore.

Edited July 20, 2014 by OriZ

[Peikko 1,575]

You obviously have not read everything I have written, only what fits your agenda. I never claimed Israel was perfect, and I blatantly called the settlement project a mistake. All I've seen from those who claim they do not support Hamas is some mumbling about how shooting rockets into civilian areas or treating their own people the way they are is not right, "but"....

The bottom line is despite some people's attempts to blur the lines and blame Israel for everything that happens, and despite the fact that Israel has made its fair share of mistakes in the west bank, Hamas' actions in Gaza have nothing to do with none of it, and no country would tolerate what Hamas is doing, actually pretty much every other country would react with much more force than Israel. That is the reality everyone here loves to ignore.

I don't have an agenda. I haven't attempted to pin the blame on any one donkey. Israel has a claim to self defense, but so does Palestine. The solution to this issue does not lie in military force and making statements such as Hamas has itself to blame for all civilian Palestinian deaths is quite simply wrong and moreover a biased statement. You made it, so you revealed a certain bias which you may or may not wish to stand by.

[OriZ 3,157]

Oh, I stand by the statement that Hamas is responsible for all deaths - civilian and military, Israeli and Palestinian - in this conflict.

[Expat1 971]

You obviously have not read everything I have written, only what fits your agenda. I never claimed Israel was perfect, and I blatantly called the settlement project a mistake. All I've seen from those who claim they do not support Hamas is some mumbling about how shooting rockets into civilian areas or treating their own people the way they are is not right, "but"....

The bottom line is despite some people's attempts to blur the lines and blame Israel for everything that happens, and despite the fact that Israel has made its fair share of mistakes in the west bank, Hamas' actions in Gaza have nothing to do with none of it, and no country would tolerate what Hamas is doing, actually pretty much every other country would react with much more force than Israel. That is the reality everyone here loves to ignore.

Now I will return to serious discussion.

The cartoons posted that display the IDF as heroes and people of Gaza as aggressors do not accurately portray that poor treatment of those people triggers response which in turn is being used to justify even worse treatment. Israel has never once sat down and mutually drawn lines nor shown any inclination to really broker a deal there.

Instead the people of Gaza are pushed further and further back and the displaced who are scattered around the neighboring countries in wretched conditions have never been factored into any equation. If in fact Hamas is to blame for current casualties then Israel is to blame for the rise of Hamas and like Hamas Israel is deliberately using settlement of civilians to draw response to justify more removal and more settlement.

This has been going on for decades. Who started it does not matter. What matters today is that targeting sons and daughters and grandchildren of Hamas leaders to punish Hamas for something the targeted people had nothing to do with is wrong. BOTH sides need to sit down with the expectation that it will never end unless they mutually agree on a solution that satisfies the needs of both sides.

One side declaring that the other side should stop and surrender before they sit down implies that they never want to or feel they should have to sit down in the first place. That is also wrong.

[OriZ 3,157]

Israel has never once sat down and mutually drawn lines nor shown any inclination to really broker a deal there.

FALSE.

Instead the people of Gaza are pushed further and further back and the displaced who are scattered around the neighboring countries in wretched conditions have never been factored into any equation.

FALSE.

What matters today is that targeting sons and daughters and grandchildren of Hamas leaders to punish Hamas for something the targeted people had nothing to do with is wrong.

FALSE. They were never targetted. Hamas' leaders houses were targetted after family members were told to leave.

BOTH sides need to sit down with the expectation that it will never end unless they mutually agree on a solution that satisfies the needs of both sides. One side declaring that the other side should stop and surrender before they sit down implies that they never want to or feel they should have to sit down in the first place. That is also wrong.

TRUE and the side with conditions is not the Israeli one.

Edited July 20, 2014 by OriZ

[Expat1 971]

FALSE.

FALSE.

FALSE. They were never targetted. Hamas' leaders houses were targetted after family members were told to leave.

TRUE and the side with conditions is not the Israeli one.

Don't say false. Describe when and describe where.

Here's how they are told to leave. It's called "roof knocking" - shooting a small missile (Powerful enough to blow the windows out) into the roof of the home then bombing it flat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w784pL-pxiE

And again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69icTMgIjlw

You still saying these houses aren't targeted? There they are. Fake? Better gum up a poster about the humanitarian way they hit the home with a small missile first...wait you already have.

Note the absence of weapons or fighters or weapons. This is deliberate targeting of the civilian leadership there.

By your own logic: The illegal settlers have been told to leave for years (so) if their house gets popped by a stray missile then by your own admission they also brought it on themselves.

A "ceasefire where we still blockade your coast" is a joke.

Hamas has rejected Egyptian efforts to end fighting, saying any deal must include an end to a blockade of the coastal area and a recommitment to a ceasefire reached after an 80-day war in Gaza in 2012.

Urging nearly a million people to leave but blocking every exit is also a joke.

The Israeli military urged Palestinians to flee a growing area of Gaza ahead of further military action.

Residents say about half of the territory's population of 1.8 million people have been told to move.

With both the Israeli and Egyptian borders sealed off, Gazans say they have few places to escape to.

Pretending that Hamas leaders and family members are not being deliberately targeted is also a joke.

An Israeli air strike there on the house of senior Hamas official Khalil al-Hayya killed his son and daughter-in-law and two children, hospital officials said.

Do you deny that these statements are true? Have a cartoon about them?

[OriZ 3,157]

Roof knocking is always the last stage, when they don't leave after phone calls, text messages, leaflets, etc.

I will not go into all the details of everything I said false about cause we've already discussed them numerous times and I do not have the time to go into everything again when it's clear that all you want to do is divert attention from the actual topic which is Gaza...back to the negotiations about a peace deal to include the west bank. Been there, done that, threads abound.

When settlers in the west bank get attacked, then yes, I oftentimes feel they brought it on themselves. When people all over Israel get attacked, then no they did not bring it on themselves and Hamas needs to pay.

The truth about the blockade of Gaza is that Israel still brings in tons of medicine and other supplies daily. Any other part of the blockade or coastal blockade is meant to prevent Hamas from bringing in even more weapons and tunnel building supplies than they already have. When Israel finally let concrete in after years it was opposed to doing so, Hamas used the more concrete they had to build even more tunnels faster. It's obvious that the blockade cannot be removed without a comprehensive deal that would guarantee no more rockets or tunnels. Is Hamas willing to do that? Of course not. Meanwhile, the naive Humanitarian taxpayer is giving them millions to help the poor humanitarian situation, but apparently they themselves don't see a crisis cause they use those millions to build tunnels and make rockets. Makes alot of sense to me.

Israel asks the people in Gaza to move from certain areas in Gaza(say, certain neighborhoods in the north of Gaza that are about to be attacked) to other areas within Gaza so saying they have nowhere to go is yet another false statement. In fact, in the very neighborhood that the fierce battles went on last night, those people were asked to leave several times in the last few days and go elsewhere being 10% of the rockets fired at Israel in the last two weeks were from there.