Is a religious ceremony always a legal marriage?

[quimolum 12]

I agree with JIJourney.

I do not see the point of discussing about wedding (religious or not) for K1 before going to the US.

I personnaly do not believe in the fiancé status. "When you want to get married to someone, just get married as soon as you have made the decision". This is my way of thinking. So I totally get people who want to not wait to get married.

There are two choices in immigration for fiancée/spouse. Nobody is forcing anybody to stay unmarried if you want to get married in any form.

If someone wants to get married in the country of the migrant (and if they have the possibility): it is great, it might put actually more meaning in the wedding and then he/she can apply for CR1. That simple.

In the examples described in the previous posts, nowhere is mentionned the exact reason why they couldn't choose CR1, or why they couldn't get married in the US. It seems for me just stories that people tell. If it is not, please give us more details.

[ksaini1982 9]

In general, the legal validity of a marriage is determined by the law of the place where the marriage was celebrated (“place-of-celebration rule”). Under this rule, a marriage is valid for immigration purposes in cases where the marriage is valid under the law of the jurisdiction in which it is performed.^[1]

This is from the USCIS. It all depends on if the country you are getting a religious ceremony considers that something that can be registered as a legal marriage.

[Gosia & Tito 199]

Hmmm....these answers really make me question and wonder about conversations I've had over the years.

I knew a couple in Colorado who were immigrants in some kind of process, living here for years. They finally went and got married in the Catholic Church, but because they could not register it, it was all done in secret. Even I remember them saying the priest could have got in trouble by the state for that. So I always had that idea that the priest was taking a risk. And it was not the only case I've heard of, and no one publicizes them. Why the need to keep it a secret then?

I'm wondering if there is more to the story. I am going to ask someone.

Not sure if the story you have is actually true....

In Colorado you don't need anyone to marry you, the bride and groom can do it themselves, no witnesses are necessary. Of course, you still need it register if you want to make it official. I know this because this is how we married.

Also, marrying in a Catholic church is not "marrying", and even if the priest was licensed to do so, unless a license and registration occurred, they are not married under the law; but that is the US; in other countries is not the same.

On the other side, in TX, it is only necesary to represent that you are married, have some joint accounts and presto; under TX eyes, you are; but not under the USCIS eyes.

Why would people keep a secret they are married? I can think of many reasons, but in all cases is their business.

I'm back to my last post: the only opinion that counts is the one USCIS will have, regardless of any legal cases you can bring up.

[IDeciam 3]

WHY would you take such a chance?

Anything,., more than an engagement "party" can be considered a "ceremony".,.,.,,.and just one person, one picture, one doucment.,.,.,.,,.and you are in serious trouble!

Is it worth it?

Please, no ceremonies, no religious "persons" presiding over the gathering..,.,have seen many "go down" for such ceremonies, an engagement party.,.,,.is the limit,.,.to my thinking, and what I have read, right here on this web-site!

Actually, there are really enormous reasons for taking such a chance.

In some cases, there are people who began the process for a K-1, or another type of visa as a single. Maybe at the beginning, it seemed like a good choice, but not after it drags on for 1+ years. They end up living in the same place geographically. What would another couple do in that situation? Live together. No one has mentioned that the USCIS has a problem with that. They live 'as if' they are married. I know plenty of couples, USA based, that do this.

The problem with discussing this topic is that the majority of people assume that a religious ceremony is something for show or for celebration. For some people it is, but not for everyone.

[IDeciam 3]

Sigh. No, it's not standard, and if you look outside the Abrahamic religions, you'll see it's a massive toss-up if it's even a part of the religious doctrines. (Again, 42,000 religions. Right now in the world. Are you asserting that you've done significant and in depth research about enough of those 42,000 religions to make such a claim?) For example, bundling was frequently practiced across Christian Europe and early Christian America, and while some societies utilized bundling boards or bags, others encouraged intimacy. (And frequently even when boards or bags were used, they were tied loosely or ceremoniously, in order to give the air of "proper.")

It's very common on VJ for people to assume that "religion" means Christianity (Protestant, Catholic, or Mormon), Judaism, or Islam (Sunni, Shia, Sushi), and that their interpretation is the one true way. But VJ is a worldwide service, and there are more religions worldwide than those. Making broad statements about what religion means when you really mean the Abrahamics, or one particular flavor of one particular Abrahamic following one particular prophet, is nicely Othering and Alienating, and does a nice job of implying that if you're not those religions, you're not religious. It is, in a word, obnoxious.

But you're right; there's certainly little point in discussing this further.

Yeah, I'm not talking about Christianity, Judaism, or Islam (although that IS half of the world's population, so not exactly a narrow minority view). I am talking about cultures that had no contact with any of these three religions.

What you are claiming does not even making sense. Are you saying that in the centuries upon centuries before birth control, women just slept around outside of being in a family (marital) relationship and there were no consequences or ramifications for that? Everybody just raised the kids in one happy commune? I think you've studied more theory than history.

And you are right, it can't be discussed, because it is a topic people are too attached to their own opinions about and don't want to be bothered by the facts. So, in most cases, it should be immediaely dropped.

[IDeciam 3]

I agree with JIJourney.

I do not see the point of discussing about wedding (religious or not) for K1 before going to the US.

I personnaly do not believe in the fiancé status. "When you want to get married to someone, just get married as soon as you have made the decision". This is my way of thinking. So I totally get people who want to not wait to get married.

There are two choices in immigration for fiancée/spouse. Nobody is forcing anybody to stay unmarried if you want to get married in any form.

If someone wants to get married in the country of the migrant (and if they have the possibility): it is great, it might put actually more meaning in the wedding and then he/she can apply for CR1. That simple.

In the examples described in the previous posts, nowhere is mentionned the exact reason why they couldn't choose CR1, or why they couldn't get married in the US. It seems for me just stories that people tell. If it is not, please give us more details.

Okay, it's good you asked this. Maybe the question does not make sense to people because they are just thinking about a 'ceremony.'

This is not a hypothetical situation. This is about people who want to be married religiously because their visa process is dragging on for a year or five years. Some people cannot afford, financially, timewise, or for other reasons, to cancel the process. It is not a hypothetical situation; I have been working closely with immigrants for over 15 years. I know many in this situation. Usually they decide to live together but they do it with great conflict of conscience.

[IDeciam 3]

Not sure if the story you have is actually true....

In Colorado you don't need anyone to marry you, the bride and groom can do it themselves, no witnesses are necessary. Of course, you still need it register if you want to make it official. I know this because this is how we married.

Also, marrying in a Catholic church is not "marrying", and even if the priest was licensed to do so, unless a license and registration occurred, they are not married under the law; but that is the US; in other countries is not the same.

On the other side, in TX, it is only necesary to represent that you are married, have some joint accounts and presto; under TX eyes, you are; but not under the USCIS eyes.

Why would people keep a secret they are married? I can think of many reasons, but in all cases is their business.

I'm back to my last post: the only opinion that counts is the one USCIS will have, regardless of any legal cases you can bring up.

It's true story, I am sure about that.

Last night I contacted a Catholic priest whose congregation is mainly immigrants and put the question to him. He also said that he cannot do a religious ceremony without a legal ceremony.

I asked him if the reasons were because of the US law or because of Church law and he said "both." And he said there are a lot of people in this situation, he sees it daily, and he really feels for them.

[Elizabeth+Fred 35]

Okay, it's good you asked this. Maybe the question does not make sense to people because they are just thinking about a 'ceremony.'

This is not a hypothetical situation. This is about people who want to be married religiously because their visa process is dragging on for a year or five years. Some people cannot afford, financially, timewise, or for other reasons, to cancel the process. It is not a hypothetical situation; I have been working closely with immigrants for over 15 years. I know many in this situation. Usually they decide to live together but they do it with great conflict of conscience.

You can pull in cases and examples until we all see blue in the face. That does not change the simple fact that, in the end, the USCIS officer(s) have to decide on whether or not both parties are, indeed, 'free to marry'. For the foreign party, that will be based on the laws, regulations and customs of the homeland of that party. If it's decided that that person should be considered married, the officer *will* deny the Fiance petition, period.

Living together is not the same as being married. Marriage, in most cases, requires *some* sort of ceremony, procedure or registration, depending on the home land, and as long as those are not performed, no marriage, not even for USCIS.

Please stop dragging in more examples of how it 'should not' ... this is how it is. You asked a question, several people have answered that question.

"It does not matter what WE think, it matters what the USCIS officer(s) (will) think and do."

[IDeciam 3]

Not sure if the story you have is actually true....

In Colorado you don't need anyone to marry you, the bride and groom can do it themselves, no witnesses are necessary. Of course, you still need it register if you want to make it official. I know this because this is how we married.

Also, marrying in a Catholic church is not "marrying", and even if the priest was licensed to do so, unless a license and registration occurred, they are not married under the law; but that is the US; in other countries is not the same.

On the other side, in TX, it is only necesary to represent that you are married, have some joint accounts and presto; under TX eyes, you are; but not under the USCIS eyes.

Why would people keep a secret they are married? I can think of many reasons, but in all cases is their business.

I'm back to my last post: the only opinion that counts is the one USCIS will have, regardless of any legal cases you can bring up.

The people I am referring to are not getting fiancee visas. They are already here in the US and they have applied for some kind of process for a green card. It basically has to do with the waiting periods being so long...years in many cases. If you change something like marital status, you can have to start all over again.

[kitthekat 1,317]

The people I am referring to are not getting fiancee visas. They are already here in the US and they have applied for some kind of process for a green card. It basically has to do with the waiting periods being so long...years in many cases. If you change something like marital status, you can have to start all over again.

well, you posted in the K1 fiance visa forum, so you can understand why we thought you were referring to K1 couples...

once someone has already entered the US, marriage to a US citizen IS the fastest and easiest route to a green card - and in most cases they can stay while they wait (after marriage). i don't know what situation would require that they stay unmarried - F2B?

[TBoneTX 46,304]

A recent post has been split from this thread and is titled "Divorced from Religious (not legal) Marriage; What Documents?  [split topic]."

 

Thread from 2014 is now closed.