Is a religious ceremony always a legal marriage?

[IDeciam 3]

Hi everyone.

I have a question that I have been asking people for about a year now (including my lawyer) and never have really gotten all the information that I need.

I have figured out that, if you apply for a Fiancee visa, you can't get married until you receive the visa; otherwise you are considered as committing fraud.

Okay, so, then I've noticed that a lot of people have religious ceremonies in their home countries and then come here and do the legal. Is that okay?

Finally, what about in countries where the religious ceremony is not recognized by the state? In some countries, the religious minister does not have power from the state to register a marriage. So, if the religious minister does the wedding, it still isn't a legal marriage. How does the USCIS view those situations?

[NigeriaorBust 4,087]

If according to your cuastom and tradition you are married after a religious wedding ( most places this is a yes ) then you do not qualify to enter the country under a K1 visa. If you do and it is uncovered later that you were married when you arrived , all benefits granted after the entry will be removed ( you lose your green card and have to start out all over ) Have a going away party, marry in the US , then return home for a religious wedding. Otherwise marry now and apply for the CR1 visa. Fraud is fraud

[IDeciam 3]

If according to your cuastom and tradition you are married after a religious wedding ( most places this is a yes ) then you do not qualify to enter the country under a K1 visa. If you do and it is uncovered later that you were married when you arrived , all benefits granted after the entry will be removed ( you lose your green card and have to start out all over ) Have a going away party, marry in the US , then return home for a religious wedding. Otherwise marry now and apply for the CR1 visa. Fraud is fraud

Better to say, "The USCIS would consider it fraud." I had no intention of hiding anything; if I were, I would have just done it, and not asked the question. So, I don't know how you can say "fraud is fraud" when I had no intention to hide it.

Frankly, I don't see why the USCIS would care about this, anyway. It is a personal issue as far as I can see. Some people are not married legally or religiously, but they live together like husband and wife before marriage. Does the USCIS see if they did this and then deny them a fiancee visa later? It doesn't add up to me. Seems really illogical.

Besides the fact that the USCIS knows that they are horribly backlogged and that the long delays are based on administrative overload rather than any law.

[JohnR! 5,495]

Hi everyone.

I have a question that I have been asking people for about a year now (including my lawyer) and never have really gotten all the information that I need.

I have figured out that, if you apply for a Fiancee visa, you can't get married until you receive the visa; otherwise you are considered as committing fraud.

Okay, so, then I've noticed that a lot of people have religious ceremonies in their home countries and then come here and do the legal. Is that okay?

Finally, what about in countries where the religious ceremony is not recognized by the state? In some countries, the religious minister does not have power from the state to register a marriage. So, if the religious minister does the wedding, it still isn't a legal marriage. How does the USCIS view those situations?

If the religious marriage is not recognized by the state [where it was performed] is should not affect the K-1 process. However, bear in mind that some religious representatives are empowered by their countries to perform legal ceremonies and they oftentimes bundle both religious and civil ceremony in one. If you're going down that route make sure you are clear as to what is being done, get evidence to it and be prepared to address it at the consulate come time for your interview.

[aaron2020 11,651]

Frankly, I don't see why the USCIS would care about this, anyway. It is a personal issue as far as I can see. Some people are not married legally or religiously, but they live together like husband and wife before marriage. Does the USCIS see if they did this and then deny them a fiancee visa later? It doesn't add up to me. Seems really illogical.

Besides the fact that the USCIS knows that they are horribly backlogged and that the long delays are based on administrative overload rather than any law.

Hi,

Just because you don't see how the US Embassy will care about this doesn't mean they don't care.

Just because you think its illogical doesn't mean the US Embassy agrees with you.

Many people in your position came to the same conclusions and were unpleasantly surprised when the US Embassy denied the K-1s based on the religious weddings.

The advice is to stay on the safe side and don't do it.

If you choose to have a religious wedding, then don't be surprised when you are treated like others who got rejected K-1s for having religious ceremonies.

Edited July 15, 2014 by aaron2020

[IDeciam 3]

If the religious marriage is not recognized by the state [where it was performed] is should not affect the K-1 process. However, bear in mind that some religious representatives are empowered by their countries to perform legal ceremonies and they oftentimes bundle both religious and civil ceremony in one. If you're going down that route make sure you are clear as to what is being done, get evidence to it and be prepared to address it at the consulate come time for your interview.

This seems right or logical to me. I know that the relationship between religion and state vary by country, and it is changing all the time. I just want to know how the USCIS views this issue.

In the USA, if I get married by an ordained Christian minister, he or she is required by the state to register that fact. I believe he commits fraud if he does not do so. But what about in the case of gay marriages where the state does not recognize them? Nobody in that case has said those ministers are committing illegal acts by doing a religious ceremony, but they don't report it to the state because the state doesn't recognize them anyway (this was the case almost everywhere in the US until recently).

If you go through a personal or religious ceremony in a country where the state does not recognize the validity of that ceremony, how does the USCIS view it?

I know multiple people who did things like that, plus I read about it on VisaJourney, but I've never found it clearly addressed.

For instance, I know of a couple who married in Colombia in the Catholic Church and then came here on a fiance visa and did the civil ceremony here. But, they hid the evidence of the wedding in Colombia for fear it would damage their fiance visa. (This is all hearsay, but I believe it is what happened.) I am not sure, but I am guessing that Colombia is like Mexico; the religious ministers do not have legal authority, so when they do a marriage ceremony, it is not recognized by the state. Mexico is like that. Is this an actual case of fraud, or does the USCIS not care about this? That's what I would like to know definitively. I just can't find this information anywhere.

[JohnR! 5,495]

This seems right or logical to me. I know that the relationship between religion and state vary by country, and it is changing all the time. I just want to know how the USCIS views this issue.

In the USA, if I get married by an ordained Christian minister, he or she is required by the state to register that fact. I believe he commits fraud if he does not do so. But what about in the case of gay marriages where the state does not recognize them? Nobody in that case has said those ministers are committing illegal acts by doing a religious ceremony, but they don't report it to the state because the state doesn't recognize them anyway (this was the case almost everywhere in the US until recently).

If you go through a personal or religious ceremony in a country where the state does not recognize the validity of that ceremony, how does the USCIS view it?

I know multiple people who did things like that, plus I read about it on VisaJourney, but I've never found it clearly addressed.

For instance, I know of a couple who married in Colombia in the Catholic Church and then came here on a fiance visa and did the civil ceremony here. But, they hid the evidence of the wedding in Colombia for fear it would damage their fiance visa. (This is all hearsay, but I believe it is what happened.) I am not sure, but I am guessing that Colombia is like Mexico; the religious ministers do not have legal authority, so when they do a marriage ceremony, it is not recognized by the state. Mexico is like that. Is this an actual case of fraud, or does the USCIS not care about this? That's what I would like to know definitively. I just can't find this information anywhere.

In the US a religious marriage has no legal binding. In order to eliminate the need for a second ceremony, oftentimes the person performing it will be vested by state with powers to perform legal weddings. It all depends on the person performing the ceremony.

[Pitaya 2,577]

Better to say, "The USCIS would consider it fraud." I had no intention of hiding anything; if I were, I would have just done it, and not asked the question. So, I don't know how you can say "fraud is fraud" when I had no intention to hide it.

Frankly, I don't see why the USCIS would care about this, anyway. It is a personal issue as far as I can see. Some people are not married legally or religiously, but they live together like husband and wife before marriage. Does the USCIS see if they did this and then deny them a fiancee visa later? It doesn't add up to me. Seems really illogical.

Besides the fact that the USCIS knows that they are horribly backlogged and that the long delays are based on administrative overload rather than any law.

That determination could be be made by USCIS, or it may more likely be made by the DOS consulate/embassy official(s) during your visa interview. It is not necessarily a matter of caring or not, it is a matter of them doing their prescribed duties, as part of the executive branch of the US Federal government, in their enforcement of the INA and its associated rules and regulations. NigeriaorBust is merely describing how it is often perceived by US government officials, and then giving you reasonable alternatives that have worked for others in similar situations that have been posted as a result of the the many similar-themed inquiries here at VJ.

http://www.uscis.gov/laws/immigration-and-nationality-act

Good luck on your immigration journey.

~two duplicate threads removed~

Edited July 15, 2014 by A&B

[JohnR! 5,495]

Hi,

Just because you don't see how the US Embassy will care about this doesn't mean they don't care.

Just because you think its illogical doesn't mean the US Embassy agrees with you.

Many people in your position came to the same conclusions and were unpleasantly surprised when the US Embassy denied the K-1s based on the religious weddings.

The advice is to stay on the safe side and don't do it.

If you choose to have a religious wedding, then don't be surprised when you are treated like others who got rejected K-1s for having religious ceremonies.

Right on.

[IDeciam 3]

Hi,

Just because you don't see how the US Embassy will care about this doesn't mean they don't care.

Just because you think its illogical doesn't mean the US Embassy agrees with you.

Many people in your position came to the same conclusions and were unpleasantly surprised when the US Embassy denied the K-1s based on the religious weddings.

The advice is to stay on the safe side and don't do it.

If you choose to have a religious wedding, then don't be surprised when you are treated like others who got rejected K-1s for having religious ceremonies.

I have not found any information on any website of the USCIS or anywhere else addressing religious ceremonies. Can you give me an example of someone who was denied a visa for this reason and what they were told about being denied?

It isn't necessary to tell me things I already know. If I thought the US Embassy agreed with my way of thinking, why would I be on VJ asking a question?

[IDeciam 3]

In the US a religious marriage has no legal binding. In order to eliminate the need for a second ceremony, oftentimes the person performing it will be vested by state with powers to perform legal weddings. It all depends on the person performing the ceremony.

If I understand it correctly, from talking to ordained ministers, not only are they vested with the powers, but it is illegal for them to do it without also doing the legal aspect of it.

I have encountered these cases with immigrants living here in the US who want to get married religiously but can't for this reason.

[aaron2020 11,651]

Here is the info from the US Embassy in the Phillipines. Many Filipinos have been surprised their Catholic wedding without a civil registration is still a valid marriage disqualifying the K-1.

http://manila.usembassy.gov/marriage.html

Note: A Catholic religious ceremony may be performed even without a civil ceremony and the marriage will still be considered legal in the Philippines.

Edited July 15, 2014 by aaron2020

[JohnR! 5,495]

If I understand it correctly, from talking to ordained ministers, not only are they vested with the powers, but it is illegal for them to do it without also doing the legal aspect of it.

I have encountered these cases with immigrants living here in the US who want to get married religiously but can't for this reason.

The only reason I would advise you not to consider it is because when you are face to face with the IO at the consulate there is little room for recourse. Regardless of what the law is or says, the IO has the power to deny your visa on any grounds and the burden will fall on you, in the recourse.

[IDeciam 3]

The only reason I would advise you not to consider it is because when you are face to face with the IO at the consulate there is little room for recourse. Regardless of what the law is or says, the IO has the power to deny your visa on any grounds and the burden will fall on you, in the recourse.

Thank you! :-) It makes sense, then. It seems that maybe the law does not directly address it, and so it remains for the individual IO to make a decision about it. Or, because it is somewhat open to interpretation, each one could have his own interpretation. So the person could be denied based on private interpretation.

Sorry if I am trying to be legalistic, but I like to understand the nuances. It helps me to have fact-based information.

[Elizabeth+Fred 35]

> if you apply for a Fiancee visa, you can't get married until you receive the visa; otherwise you are considered as committing fraud.

For the K-1 Fiance(e) visa, both parties have to be 'free to marry'. In many countries around the world, a religious marriage performed by the proper people (minister, rabbi, clansleader, priest, imam, whatever..) following the correct protocol is considered a legal marriage by act. In addition, (some of those) people performing such a marriage may have legal powers vested in them, meaning, the marriage they perform is then also a legal (civil) wedding, making it a marriage by law. This is not always the case, as it depends on the person performing the service.

USCIS looks at the status of a marriage *as valid in the country where performed*, and not the status of said marriage in the U.S. So, if you are married in the home country, they will deny a K-1, because that party is not free to marry. If that party WAS married in that country, you will have to show documentation (again, from that home country) proving that the marriage was legally dissolved or terminated.

> ... a lot of people have religious ceremonies in their home countries and then come here and do the legal. Is that okay?

That largely depends on the status of that (religious) ceremony IN THE HOME COUNTRY. If, like another member already stated, that ceremony is normally considered a "full wedding", then, by laws of the home country, you are no longer 'free to marry', and, thus, will be denied a K-1.

I agree that there is a (big) grey area here. Some USCIS officers might go all the way and try to figure out whether the status of such a ceremony means a valid marriage or not, and some will just assume "ceremony happened - they're married!". Unless YOU are absolutely sure that your religious ceremony is just that (in the home country!), and will not be seen as a marriage-by-act there, you should, as previously suggested, stay away from it for now. Get (legally) married in the U.S. first, and THEN go back to have the religious ceremony performed.. It's just not worth the risk of being denied a K-1 visa!

Finally, what about in countries where the religious ceremony is not recognized by the state? In some countries, the religious minister does not have power from the state to register a marriage. So, if the religious minister does the wedding, it still isn't a legal marriage. How does the USCIS view those situations?