Abuse of Vawa Discussion - split off from specific case

[belinda63 3,038]

The point he is trying to make, as I think most of know, is that the documentation from the local courts is being used to support VAWA filings with immigration. We all know some courts can be more lenient in the proof they require prior to issuing a protective order. Some people make false filings which they have friends lie to support (one example was given by a member here). Some prosecutors play favorites. The problem is you can use the local protective orders/guilty pleas to support your VAWA claim although they may have been BS.

I took a photo of my ex-spouse following me in his vehicle into court and asked he be punished for violating the protective order. Because he had a good attorney and I didn't, the judge did nothing. On the other hand I knew a person who was "physically assaulted" by a man but she did nothing about it until mention of her possibly getting money was raised. She thought if she made a case against him she would get money for "pain and suffering". So a week after the incident she filed for a protective order and went to the hospital with all sorts of complaints of pain. He was already on probation so he did a plea to stay out of jail. Did the incident happen? I don't know because there were no witnesses. But she did nothing about it until she thought she could gain some benefit (money) from it so if it happened at all it could not have been too serious.

[Villanelle 4,122]

Wow. I have to agree with Sandra here. The BS on this thread is getting out of control and I fear its going to be locked soon. (And I also agree with Caryh about a particular persons auto defense of when challenged to simply revert to Im not wrong you all just dont understand)

So Khwaidee asked what is VAWA-

He is right it was signed by Clinton in 1994. So to talk about the DV system before and afterwards, well we are talking about a good 20 yrs difference here. I doubt anyone on this forum even has a car that old... But anyway surprisingly it was created under the leadership of then Senator Biden. Some of the highlights of it-

-the rape shield law; preventing offenders from using the victims sexual history against them

-mandating that victims no matter their income do not have to pay for their own rape exams or the cost of service of a protection order

-requiring a RO issued in one, will be valid in all states in US territories

-increasing prosecution, convictions and sentencing by making special units for sex crimes (think regular law and order on TV and SVU law and order) that didnt use to exsit prior to VAWA

-ensuring police respond to DV and sex crimes properly by training over 500,000 personnel every other year.

-special training for Indian reservations and the authorites that work with them

-establishing National DV hotline

Since VAWA has passed DV has went down. Intimate partner homicides of both male and females have went down.

Many programs receive funding under the VAWA act including elder abuse, college campus abuse, men and youth prevention groups, court training grants, rape centers, crisis hotlines- and yes legal aid fees.

The act also allows a provision in the immigration law to protect victims of abuse. In certain cases they can obtain status w/o needing the support of their abuser.

--

Anyway to BBCC with all that being said I would have to disagree with your statement of

I believe VAWA (the law) to be very misguided and ineffective in resolving the general problem of DV. It has served only to greatly enhance the POTENTIAL of criminal malfeasance on the matter by all concerned.

Even reading novedsacs story- he had the footage but afterwards the officer stated what? even without the footage, he tended to believe him.. Why? Because the officer is highly trained. Why? Because the violence against women act designated funds to ensure so.

It works both ways. Thats the part people outside the system dont understand. Its almost like how an art professional can spot a fake painting from the real deal. Or for the guy behind the counter at the pawn shop- he knows as soon as you walk in what youve got- if its a priceless antique or not. If your gold is real or fake. Its experience and training. A cop coming on to a DV scene is trained to make that determination. Who is the victim who is the attacker.

The act may not be perfect in what it covers and provides and of course people will always complain about funding and what is being spent on what. But to say that it is harmful? I dont think so

[Sandra G. 5,047]

BBCC Let me tell you something ANY relief under Vawa Law is JUST IN THE CONTEXT of immigration (USCIS or Immigration Court) There is no " General legal relief under VAWA (the law) handled by local courts". You are misinformed about what you are saying here . If you are talking about Restraining order, or domestic battery charges, these things are not Vawa Law-related ok. I handled over 6.000 Vawa cases, and I never heard what you are saying here. Please inform yourself about Vawa Law.Believe me knowledge does not hurt.

I rest my case!

[BBCC 16]

Wow. I have to agree with Sandra here. The BS on this thread is getting out of control and I fear its going to be locked soon. (And I also agree with Caryh about a particular persons auto defense of when challenged to simply revert to Im not wrong you all just dont understand)

So Khwaidee asked what is VAWA-

He is right it was signed by Clinton in 1994. So to talk about the DV system before and afterwards, well we are talking about a good 20 yrs difference here. I doubt anyone on this forum even has a car that old... But anyway surprisingly it was created under the leadership of then Senator Biden. Some of the highlights of it-

-the rape shield law; preventing offenders from using the victims sexual history against them

-mandating that victims no matter their income do not have to pay for their own rape exams or the cost of service of a protection order

-requiring a RO issued in one, will be valid in all states in US territories

-increasing prosecution, convictions and sentencing by making special units for sex crimes (think regular law and order on TV and SVU law and order) that didnt use to exsit prior to VAWA

-ensuring police respond to DV and sex crimes properly by training over 500,000 personnel every other year.

-special training for Indian reservations and the authorites that work with them

-establishing National DV hotline

Since VAWA has passed DV has went down. Intimate partner homicides of both male and females have went down.

Many programs receive funding under the VAWA act including elder abuse, college campus abuse, men and youth prevention groups, court training grants, rape centers, crisis hotlines- and yes legal aid fees.

The act also allows a provision in the immigration law to protect victims of abuse. In certain cases they can obtain status w/o needing the support of their abuser.

--

Anyway to BBCC with all that being said I would have to disagree with your statement of

Even reading novedsacs story- he had the footage but afterwards the officer stated what? even without the footage, he tended to believe him.. Why? Because the officer is highly trained. Why? Because the violence against women act designated funds to ensure so.

novedsacs was VERY lucky with his experience. From the proceedings I have heard, this is very rare.

Even the statistics you cite are suspect but certainly plenty available to support the law. Enough statistic tend to support any theory and millions have certainly been spent amassing the statistics with the end of supporting the law in mind at the outset.

You clearly have a vested interest in challenging opponents of the law and quite permanently set in your perspective. VAWA has certainly changed the problem of DV. Reduced it? Very unlikely.

You have lots to write but little in substance.

[Villanelle 4,122]

BBCC I really dont have any motive. I usually try to provide an unbiased opinion and let others draw their own conclusions. These opponents of the (VAWA) law you talk about- that its not effective... I dont believe I heard anything in the news from them and I was quite vigilant when VAWA was up for renewal. The debate in Washington was not about whether or not the act was making a difference or not. Everyone on both sides of the aisle agreed it was.

The issues were about whether or not to include LGBT individuals under the act and to continue to provide certain services to undocumented. (and please dont read that as allowing immigration petitions to be filed we are talking about undocumented getting access to shelters/crisis centers/ etc). I mean imagine being severely beaten and the police come and determine you need medical care and transport you to the local er who asks for your immigration status. You say you are illegal and well, they patch you up (because there are provisions in the law for making one stable before releasing them regardless of status) but they can not provide you with the crisis coordinator. If you were a USC they would come in and talk to you about getting you to a shelter. If you were a GC holder they would do the same. But you are illegal so its out to the cold street with you.

But anyway it was all hot button political issues of the day. Gay rights and immigration reform. No one had any objection to the effectiveness of the act.

--

As for your observations. From your previous posts youve described your observations being limited to the time you spent in court 15 years ago during your divorce- Now I dont know how long your divorce dragged on for, some can go on a while, but you seem to feel you spent a significant amount of time there.

And then you spent time in court as a property manager doing something with evictions. Not sure if that occurred every day, but again you feel that gave you a significant amount of time in a court and you observed RO petitions again.

First of all like the lightning and lightning bugs a RO while it can be tied with DV (if its between intimate partners- I mean you can take out a RO on a stranger harassing you, thats not domestic violence) is not an actual Domestic violence criminal charge. Its not a felony, its not a misdemeanor.Its a totally different animal. Youre not arrested- you are served.

You seem to feel they are handed out way too easily and again I say you didnt receive any training under the $500,000 VAWA act so you have no idea what they are reviewing when the case comes before them- just like unless you are an art appraiser and expert you would have no idea on how to pick out the fake Picasso in a line up. Youre not looking at the police report. You dont know the behind the scenes. You just see what you see from the back row of the court room and are like wow that was easy.

Things that usually end up in front of a judge end up there because there was enough evidence to warrant it there. Things that are baseless usually dont. Now I know the world is not ideal and justice doesnt always prevail. In my personal life and my personal opinions Im more like Belinda when she says "I took a photo of my ex-spouse following me in his vehicle into court and asked he be punished for violating the protective order. Because he had a good attorney and I didn't, the judge did nothing. " Sometimes the wrong side will win and sometimes good people get screwed over. But like I said above this isnt about my opinions or bias just the facts...

ROs are a very small facet of the HUGE problem of domestic violence. To say I am basing my statements that the VAWA act has not reduced DV and is causing I dont even know how you phrased it 'enhancing the potential for criminal malfeasance' based on observations of RO hearings only- well perhaps if you had more to base it on- but with just that- Im sorry I dont see it.

[BBCC 16]

The debate in Washington was not about whether or not the act was making a difference or not. Everyone on both sides of the aisle agreed it was.

Everyone? Really? And what of the 130 house republicans who voted against it? The one's Biden referred to as "Neanderthals?"

Oh, I understand the bi-partisan support the law carried. I also recognize the many millions of dollars used to fabricate the statistics you so enjoy quoting to justify the bill. In the end, it is all the industry fabricated propaganda financed by the federal funds that carry the industry to begin with. It's all a self-funded feeding frenzy. It will never amount to anything more than an unconstitutional denial of due process for millions who are subject to the court litigation it generates.

Your many paragraphs of cut-and-paste debate methods prove nothing. None of it can counter the hearings I've seen periodically over the years since it's passage. The law is NOT working. It never will no matter how voluminous the false claims in support of it become.

Edited June 25, 2014 by BBCC

[Villanelle 4,122]

What an interesting sentence...it is all the industry fabricated propaganda financed by the federal funds that carry the industry to begin with. In this sentence the quote "industry" is Domestic Violence. So- it is all the domestic violence propaganda financed by federal funds that carry the domestic violence industry to begin with.. Carry could just as easily be replaced with support- as you stated its a self feeding frenzy.

So now we have the DV propaganda is supporting and feeding into the DV industry. So I guess if we just ignore it- it should go away?? Okay everyone stop making propaganda about DV. Enough with the posters and educational materials. Turn off the help line. Lets even go further- Because the law is just not working... so all the pro bono lawyers need to start charging the victims directly- if they dont have it, well too bad for them. If they cant pay for the rape exam at the hospital (which can cost over 1,000$) well Im sorry we cant convict the rapist w/o it. Apparently these funds are just not needed.

You honestly believe the hotlines and crisis centers had no effect on DV since 1994. That every red cent of the money has just been gobbled up by greed and no ones done anything helpful with it?

And I dont even know what this is- and unconstitutional denial of due process for millions subject to court litigation. huh? Who is being denied due process? Where? when? I feel like I missed something... I would ask you to explain but I fear you would just refer me to brush up on my reading skills.

As for false claims of how effective things are- of course anyone can quote statistics and theres always a statistic to counter it. Im not so foolish to think otherwise. But certain things are facts and sinceVAWA police have reported the rate of intimate partner homicides of females and males have decreased. Is that just a coincidence or are the measures implemented by the act working?

[BBCC 16]

sinceVAWA police have reported the rate of intimate partner homicides of females and males have decreased. Is that just a coincidence or are the measures implemented by the act working?

And so the ruse goes on and on. Lies, damned lies and statistics. It's nothing more. You have all the coincidence generated by the vast resources of the federal government at your disposal. Have at it.

[Villanelle 4,122]

No I believe this is going to be it for me as it seems you just want to be on the opposite side- no matter what it is.

Yet you have no problem taking firm stances a law you dont get all the way from the senate hearings to the way its applied to daily lives. ANd I say that because people have been correcting you since you started the thread even until now on this page the resident VJ attny had to once more step in and try to explain it again..

Your post number 51 says "Its not working" (VAWA). But your post #18 says It is hearbreaking to the core when learning of those who have been put through abuse by someone close to them. For them, the protections of VAWA are most necessary and I am grateful they are there."

SO which is it?? Because like I said it seems like as the conversation shifts and points are wiped out you just find another opposing side to hop on.

You then claim the gov (or rather I suppose the people receiving the funds) are making up lies and statistics to keep the money flowing. Skewed charts to show yup this is having an effect so lets keep doing it. Youre basing this on your personal observations which we already said are limited in quantity and in area.

But regardless of all that, if you were to take a sampling of people accused of DV how many do you think would freely admit to it?? They are ALL going to be not guilty and had been set up by an evil woman or man. The example you gave from your 'friend' spousal copulation. The term does not exist. It was a line of BS because what was he going to say? The truth? I forced myself on my wife and she went to the cops and I plea bargained out. Now Im a sex offender. HA no way. Hes going to say what a ####### system it is. How he did nothing wrong because guess what? Ask a guy that beats his wife if hes doing anything wrong and he will tell you no.

Watch some old episodes of Cops where they show up and the house is trashed, not trashed like what a dump but trashed like someone was tossed around. Lamp broken, things knocked off the tables or walls. And its usually the woman with the bloody lip or swollen eye holding a balled up rag to her head and the guy is pacing around, sometimes in another room. And they are like dude what happened do you know why we are here? He always says a variation of nothing, I dont know, and then the big- I didnt do that.

Admitting you are an abuser is probably one of the hardest things you can do. IMO its harder then seeking help for drug addictions because society accepts drug abuse rehab. You are allowed to 'come out' and say I am a drug abuser and I want help. But you are not really allowed to come out and say Im a sexual deviant, Im a wife beater, Im a child abuser, Im a rapist, I want some help. I need therapy, or Im getting therapy or Im working on recovering with a professional. Some people believe they can never change, others think they can with the proper professional help. So because of that stigma rarely will you find individuals that will say yes I was charged with a sex based crime or DV and I was guilty. It is almost always a 'false arrest' and miscarriage of justice that they were convicted- even when its not.

Which I will bring this back around to the topic this thread was created for. The abuse of VAWA. The concern of filing false DV or sex crime reports. Because EVERYBODY is going to say they are innocent- that is a number that is very hard to pin down. How many are actually innocent and how many are true victims of people manipulating the system. And this could be for various reasons (gaining advantage in divorce, custody, or yes USCIS paperwork)

.

This only makes the VAWA act MORE important and makes more funding for it necessary. Remember among other things the VAWA act funds and trains police, crisis centers, consulars. These are the people that are the first line of defense. Its not a self feeding machine. They are not paid per victim. Police are not rewarded per number of victims they bring in. Ideally they want crime down as low as possible. The crisis hotline are not telemarketers. The nurse doesnt get paid per rape kit. She gets a salary and is at the hospital working regardless if you come in or not.

People that commit fraud or other crimes like to do so quietly and discreetly with the least amount of resistance. If given the choice they would file the complaint with the rookie officer who just learned how to fill out the forms not the senior detective who completed thousands of hours of specialized training in DV thanks to the VAWA funding. But its not their choice.

People that come here often ask in the context of filing forms for immigration under the VAWA act if their ex can do so even if there was no abuse and be approved. The answer is sadly yes- it does happen. but IMO its more on the rare side because the ex would need to perpetrate a scam so large- fooling so many trained professionals at various times. Well most cant pull it off.

But again thats just general and Im always skeptical of the 'even if there was no abuse' line. Every situation is unique and someone that starts a post with that usually has a more complicated story behind it anyway..

[BBCC 16]

The concern remains with the lack of due process in the local court hearing. You may continue to write pages and pages attacking any views to the contrary. Once again, your writing ability far exceeds your second grade reading and comprehension level. Enjoy it.

[Caryh 5,206]

The concern remains with the lack of due process in the local court hearing. You may continue to write pages and pages attacking any views to the contrary. Once again, your writing ability far exceeds your second grade reading and comprehension level. Enjoy it.

Please explain how you define "Due Process" and then explain how it is missing in local court hearings.

[BBCC 16]

Please explain how you define "Due Process" and then explain how it is missing in local court hearings.

Already mentioned in previous posts Read.

[Caryh 5,206]

Already mentioned in previous posts Read

Ah yes, no answer per your usual. In other words you have no idea what Due Process is and cannot explain how it is being violated all the time. We're just supposed to take your claimed considerable time spent sitting in courtrooms and general outrage on the topic as proof. I thought so.

[BBCC 16]

Ah yes, no answer per your usual. In other words you have no idea what Due Process is and cannot explain how it is being violated all the time. We're just supposed to take your claimed considerable time spent sitting in courtrooms and general outrage on the topic as proof. I thought so.

and so continues your request for "proof" merely to continue to fuel your petty game of belligerent point-counterpoint.

once again, you prove nothing.

[Caryh 5,206]

and so continues your request for "proof" merely to continue to fuel your petty game of belligerent point-counterpoint.

once again, you prove nothing.

And yet still you have never responded to any questions to back up your assertions, you just continue to say you know more even than those working in the field, never once bringing any evidence of anything forward. I'm just giving you the opportunity to back up your opinions, which you seem to think are facts with some actual factual knowledge even if its as little as a simple legal definition, which could be easily found on google. You make big claims, VAWA is a failure, no due process in courts, rampant fraud, but not one sliver of anything to back it up other than taking your word for it, because you've sat in the back of "a" courtroom and watched.