Freed

[Jacque67 7,328]

Does he? If I am understanding him correctly, he is saying that since Islam proclaims killing all non-believers of Islam, perhaps a first-strike response, eliminating them all, would preclude extermination of the rest of the world.

It's kind of like saying, "Oh, so you say you will kill me and my family soon? Well, lemme just shoot you NOW." Unreasonable? Depends on how far up the third point of contact one's head is, I reckon...

Kind of reminds me of Dr Strangelove- ha ha

[UncleBeer 244]

That becomes a very tricky tightrope to walk without it becoming a personal attack.

Ideally, folks would be very circumspect about calling others "bigots" or "racists" as happened here (and in virtually every other thread in CEHST):

First, not every action, thought, or opinion can be attributed to racism, although you wouldn't know it from reading threads here. Sudan's decision to hold Meriam was entirely based on Sharia law, so it's not unreasonable to draw conclusions about Sharia law from their actions. This is not bigotry; it's simple cause & effect.

Second, every time someone cries "bigotry!", they weaken the word. Listeners grow fatigued of hearing it repeatedly (that's just human nature, like it or not), and as a result, real instances of bigotry go unaddressed. Unfortunately, accusations of racism have such a visceral effect that certain posters seem unable to resist making them over and over (absent a real argument), and it's such a hot-button issue in today's society that VJ moderators feel obliged to view these claims more seriously than is warranted. I wish moderators would consider this in their deliberations, but I'm not holding my breath . . .

By the way, the whole family has now been re-arrested. Nice country, Sudan.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

When people make bigoted comments about followers of a religion followed by quarter of the world's population rather rather than the cultural issues specific to 3rd world nations, calling it bigotry is exactly right.

Why exactly is it necessary to question what religion the woman's child would have been brought up in, were the woman to have been executed. Surely the real tragedy is the one faced by people in 3rd world countries who face medieval, backward justice systems.

Anything beyond that merely serves to highlight the prejudice of individuals.

Maybe you should be a bit more circumspect in who and what you defend.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Papa Lazarou

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

That becomes a very tricky tightrope to walk without it becoming a personal attack.

You make that observation that they don't practice what they preach so why should they expect others to . . . They then take umbrage either at the comment - or more likely, the way the comment was phrased - and respond heatedly to what they perceive as a personal attack. Others join in taking sides, sometimes even piling on to gang up on someone, and everything becomes very polarized and the discussion degenerates to a whole mess of 'oh yeah, well you are etc.,. . .!. " and "Yeah, same back to you, you are etc., . . " and before you know it there are pages of posts that no longer discuss the posted topic but are judgmental commentary on other members which are then reported, a moderator (or two) show up, remove the inappropriate comments, post warnings, and in many cases, either thread ban the protagonists or end up closing the thread several pages later due to repeated TOS violations.

If you can find a way of pointing out hypocrisy without making it personal, you are welcome to do that. The problem with trying to discredit a poster who has posted certain commentary, however, is that you are seldom addressing the content of the post itself and are more involved in character assassination than in refuting or providing factual commentary on the subject matter. That is why I post the warning to 'discuss the post, not the poster'.

The hard part is the criticism of Islam is usually an attack against the entire religion or the people who follow it. We tend to get lumped up with the crazies. So when I come in and say it's them and not Islam, I'm usually attacked. I'd have no issues if people would ask questions about it and allowed some muslims to come in and give answers, but the ones who focus the most on it are the ones who have no desire to learn anything new or positive about Islam.

When people make bigoted comments about followers of a religion followed by quarter of the world's population rather rather than the cultural issues specific to 3rd world nations, calling it bigotry is exactly right.

Why exactly is it necessary to question what religion the woman's child would have been brought up in, were the woman to have been executed. Surely the real tragedy is the one faced by people in 3rd world countries who face medieval, backward justice systems.

Anything beyond that merely serves to highlight the prejudice of individuals.

Maybe you should be a bit more circumspect in who and what you defend.

You're trying to nail Jello to a wall. There's no reaching someone who's determined to be antagonizing.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

one post containing a personal attack has been removed along with a post responding to same. One member has been thread-banned from this thread for failure to follow my warning.

Please, discuss the posted topic and do not derail the thread into other areas of discussion. If there are other issues you wish to discuss, start a thread specifically for that purpose.

-VJ Moderation

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think any sort of fundamentalist religion is potentially dangerous - especially so when it has access to political power. In many ways, countries like Sudan are going through the sorts of things that Christian countries experienced during the middle ages. Brutality and oppression were rife because religion and political power were conjoined.

In some parts of the world, like Sudan, this sort of thing still happens and it is tragic. However, to try and tarnish a belief system followed by 1.6bn people on the basis of it seems extremely ignorant to me (regardless of whether or not you believe in God).

What I find worse, in a way, are people in more enlightened countries (which the US purportedly is) who behave in an ignorant, intolerant way despite access to education and the government respecting individual liberty. How does say, something like the Westboro Baptist Church come about?

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

I think any sort of fundamentalist religion is potentially dangerous - especially so when it has access to political power. In many ways, countries like Sudan are going through the sorts of things that Christian countries experienced during the middle ages. Brutality and oppression were rife because religion and political power were conjoined.

I agree with this but that is also the problem.. There are plenty of Christian fanatics but the power they have over me is limited to the power I choose to give them.. It took hundreds of years to break free of Christian tyranny. Should we just sit around and hope the major Islamic countries go one way and not the other? I don't see them becoming more secular, I see them becoming more radical.. Here and now what countries have blasphemy and apostasy laws? Here is the list - How many religions do you think are represented?

Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)

Comoros

Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment)

Iran – illegal (death penalty)

Iraq

Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy

Kuwait

Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)

Maldives

Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)

Morocco – illegal to proselytise conversion (15 years' imprisonment)

Nigeria

Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child

Pakistan – illegal (death penalty since 2007)

Qatar – illegal (death penalty)

Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)

Somalia – illegal (death penalty)

Sudan – illegal (death penalty)

Syria

United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging)

Yemen – illegal (death penalty)

[GandD 5,966]

He made a post suggesting this on another thread.

This dude appears masochistic!!

The comment you liked from Kathryn frames this exact comment as a personal attack. Just an FYI.

[GandD 5,966]

The hard part is the criticism of Islam is usually an attack against the entire religion or the people who follow it. We tend to get lumped up with the crazies. So when I come in and say it's them and not Islam, I'm usually attacked. I'd have no issues if people would ask questions about it and allowed some muslims to come in and give answers, but the ones who focus the most on it are the ones who have no desire to learn anything new or positive about Islam.

You're trying to nail Jello to a wall. There's no reaching someone who's determined to be antagonizing.

All Islam is evil - Ok

Marvin the Muslim is evil - Not OK

Got it? Its ok to degrade an entire group of people with hate filled and unsubstantiated comments, even though its specifically mentioned in the TOS as an infraction. But if you hurt the commentor's feelings when you attack them for being hate filled/biased/racist, you're in the wrong. You see folks, that's why this stuff is allowed to exist. Just like in real life, people here are allowed to have their "point of view" even when their "point of view" is that blacks are lazy/violent, Muslims are backwards terrorists, homosexuality is a disease that is infecting our morally upstanding society or whatever. Some how hate and intolerance is allowed to be a "point of view" and is protected. We allow that. We allow old people to say racist things because "that's just how they were raised" or we allow zealots to preach hate towards others because you know, that's their religious freedom or some BS. We give these people the free pass under the guise of freedom and we all suffer from the bile and poison they spew on everyone.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I agree with this but that is also the problem.. There are plenty of Christian fanatics but the power they have over me is limited to the power I choose to give them.. It took hundreds of years to break free of Christian tyranny. Should we just sit around and hope the major Islamic countries go one way and not the other? I don't see them becoming more secular, I see them becoming more radical.. Here and now what countries have blasphemy and apostasy laws? Here is the list - How many religions do you think are represented?

Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)

Comoros

Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment)

Iran – illegal (death penalty)

Iraq

Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy

Kuwait

Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)

Maldives

Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)

Morocco – illegal to proselytise conversion (15 years' imprisonment)

Nigeria

Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child

Pakistan – illegal (death penalty since 2007)

Qatar – illegal (death penalty)

Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)

Somalia – illegal (death penalty)

Sudan – illegal (death penalty)

Syria

United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging)

Yemen – illegal (death penalty)

Well I wouldn't assume that there aren't people with a progressive outlook in those countries who don't believe in extremism. Surely if there are intelligent, enlightened and law-abiding muslims outside of those countries, why not elsewhere?

Why do people feel the need to single out the religion as being the problem?

Edited June 25, 2014 by Papa Lazarou

[Jacque67 7,328]

The comment you liked from Kathryn frames this exact comment as a personal attack. Just an FYI.

Thanks for checking up on me;)

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

All Islam is evil - Ok

Marvin the Muslim is evil - Not OK

Got it? Its ok to degrade an entire group of people with hate filled and unsubstantiated comments, even though its specifically mentioned in the TOS as an infraction. But if you hurt the commentor's feelings when you attack them for being hate filled/biased/racist, you're in the wrong. You see folks, that's why this stuff is allowed to exist. Just like in real life, people here are allowed to have their "point of view" even when their "point of view" is that blacks are lazy/violent, Muslims are backwards terrorists, homosexuality is a disease that is infecting our morally upstanding society or whatever. Some how hate and intolerance is allowed to be a "point of view" and is protected. We allow that. We allow old people to say racist things because "that's just how they were raised" or we allow zealots to preach hate towards others because you know, that's their religious freedom or some BS. We give these people the free pass under the guise of freedom and we all suffer from the bile and poison they spew on everyone.

Truth. That's all I can say on this one.

[Jacque67 7,328]

Well I wouldn't assume that there aren't people with a progressive outlook in those countries who don't believe in extremism. Surely if there are intelligent, enlightened and law-abiding muslims outside of those countries, why not elsewhere?

Why do people feel the need to single out the religion as being the problem?

Some people get off on hate?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Some people get off on hate?

As I say, it's more surprising that there are bigoted, ignorant people in developed nations than in places like Sudan. There just isn't an excuse for it.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Well I wouldn't assume that there aren't people with a progressive outlook in those countries who don't believe in extremism. Surely if there are intelligent, enlightened and law-abiding muslims outside of those countries, why not elsewhere?

Why do people feel the need to single out the religion as being the problem?

Because it's the easiest answer. Just like it's easier to blame gun violence on mental issues rather than the gun culture our country has come to love.