89-year-old Philadelphia man accused of war crimes as Nazi death-camp guard

[Peikko 1,575]

Good point. And I'd like to know how it is determined whether a soldier was following orders or acting on his own. In some of these lower level cases, these guys were doing what they were told or they would have suffered the consequences. It doesn't make it right by any means, but in some cases the options weren't pleasant. The higher ups deserve what they get and should be held accountable at all costs, and many of them have been. Time doesn't erase the crime, but at how much responsibility lies on a common soldier following orders?

Prison guard, not soldier and typically they don't go after anyone who had no more involvement than following orders that he couldn't refuse.

[Jacque67 7,328]

Who is they?

[spookyturtle 9,466]

One, Stalin was an ali during world war 2, like it or not, that's a fact

Two, Germany was defeated, there was transparency, all records were open and available, it was possible to track and trace and provide EVIDENCE for the crimes and the individuals responsible. None of these crimes were prosecuted by hearsay, Nuremberg trial transcripts are available and are interesting reading.

Three, The cold war - zero transparency, the rise of Khruschev who relaxed a lot of Stalinist policies.

A very different set of circumstances. It's only a cursory list but it really explains many of the reasons why this wasn't addressed externally.

Absolutely true. But it still doesn't make it right and no attempt has been made for justice 70 years later. It seems like pick and choose. There was an uproar against Saddam Hussein and his crimes against his own people, yet why doesn't the same exist for Kim Jong-il who made Hussein look like a nice guy?

Prison guard, not soldier and typically they don't go after anyone who had no more involvement than following orders that he couldn't refuse.

So the prison guards weren't German soldiers? They were civilians like we have in the US?

[Peikko 1,575]

Absolutely true. But it still doesn't make it right and no attempt has been made for justice 70 years later. It seems like pick and choose. There was an uproar against Saddam Hussein and his crimes against his own people, yet why doesn't the same exist for Kim Jong-il who made Hussein look like a nice guy?

So the prison guards weren't German soldiers? They were civilians like we have in the US?

I think a lot of it boils down to what can be proved in a court of law. I could be wrong. Not sure about the prison guards, I'd have to look it up.

[Peikko 1,575]

Who is they?

Mostly jews do the research as far as I can remember, often survivors or relatives of survivors. They go to great lengths to ensure they are securing prosecutions against people they can prove to have taken an active part in the cruelty and destruction. Some guards simply followed orders, others got right into the spirit of the pogrom and initiated their own forms of cruelty against the prisoners.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I think a lot of it boils down to what can be proved in a court of law. I could be wrong. Not sure about the prison guards, I'd have to look it up.

The key point I've overlooked is what can be proven in court. And there have been tens of millions of innocent lives taken that can never be proven in court. We have Russia, Iraq, N. Korea, China, and let's not forget Japan's atrocities in Korea and China. Anyone remember the Rape of Nanking? Along with many others all across the globe. I know there is no solution, it's just that this topic made me thing back. The cynical side of me sees that the uproar is selective at times, depending on what is at stake for the parties involved.

[Peikko 1,575]

The key point I've overlooked is what can be proven in court. And there have been tens of millions of innocent lives taken that can never be proven in court. We have Russia, Iraq, N. Korea, China, and let's not forget Japan's atrocities in Korea and China. Anyone remember the Rape of Nanking? Along with many others all across the globe. I know there is no solution, it's just that this topic made me thing back. The cynical side of me sees that the uproar is selective at times, depending on what is at stake for the parties involved.

It's difficult when all records are destroyed and of course many dictators make sure they are. There have been, very sadly way too many purges of one sort of another around the globe but of course you are right, there are also 'political expediences' that ensure that some crimes are not brought to the forefront as well. It's a sad old business and yet continues. Iraq and Syria are not going to end well for many innocent folks.

[Dakine10 5,452]

So, no more trials of children as adults no matter what they are accused of? Fair enough, I totally agree with that, however there must be 'actual evidence' of war crimes or he wouldn't be extradited. The authorities do require proofs before these processes can proceed. This is not trial be hearsay. If he goes to trial it may shed more light on what occurred and that is a good thing, not a bad one.

The evidence appears circumstantial.

The new complaint states that Breyer was promoted at least once while stationed at the Auschwitz II-Birkenau, and granted leave to visit his German hometown twice, once in April 1944 and another time in January 1945. The complaint explains that such benefits were not afforded to guards who had refused to perform the full range of duties of an SS "Death's Head Battalion" guard.

He should have to answer for any crimes he committed, but I'm not sure they have any if this is what it is based on. I am OK with a trial too, no matter how old they are, except we often see them tried multiple times for the same thing. This guy was acquitted in 2003 (based on his age) and now the new evidence is he was granted leave.

He is being held without bail until his extradition. At this point, I feel if he was guilty - he already got away with it. He has his whole life free. On the other hand if he is "innocent", he is spending his last years incarcerated. I'm not sure one last drop of blood is worth it.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

It's difficult when all records are destroyed and of course many dictators make sure they are. There have been, very sadly way too many purges of one sort of another around the globe but of course you are right, there are also 'political expediences' that ensure that some crimes are not brought to the forefront as well. It's a sad old business and yet continues. Iraq and Syria are not going to end well for many innocent folks.

It is sad. I see everyday people just like you and me whose lives are shattered and disrupted through no fault of their own. They just want to go to work, eat, raise their families and enjoy life a little bit. They didn't chose the wars or purges or their leaders in many cases. I can't imagine what it would be like to live somewhere when I couldn't go grocery shopping or let kids play at the park without fear of being killed. Mind boggling.

[TBoneTX 46,276]

So the prison guards weren't German soldiers? They were civilians like we have in the US?

Many were local citizens -- Poles, Hungarians, from the Baltic states, et al. Two Survivors mentioned to me that the locals were sometimes more brutal than the Germans.

It is sad. I see everyday people just like you and me whose lives are shattered and disrupted through no fault of their own. They just want to go to work, eat, raise their families and enjoy life a little bit. They didn't chose the wars or purges or their leaders in many cases. I can't imagine what it would be like to live somewhere when I couldn't go grocery shopping or let kids play at the park without fear of being killed. Mind boggling.

Where's the +1,000 button?

[Jacque67 7,328]

Mostly jews do the research as far as I can remember, often survivors or relatives of survivors. They go to great lengths to ensure they are securing prosecutions against people they can prove to have taken an active part in the cruelty and destruction. Some guards simply followed orders, others got right into the spirit of the pogrom and initiated their own forms of cruelty against the prisoners.

Ha ha. I would advise against using that word in California - you would be accused of a hate crime!

[Peikko 1,575]

The evidence appears circumstantial.

He should have to answer for any crimes he committed, but I'm not sure they have any if this is what it is based on. I am OK with a trial too, no matter how old they are, except we often see them tried multiple times for the same thing. This guy was acquitted in 2003 (based on his age) and now the new evidence is he was granted leave.

He is being held without bail until his extradition. At this point, I feel if he was guilty - he already got away with it. He has his whole life free. On the other hand if he is "innocent", he is spending his last years incarcerated. I'm not sure one last drop of blood is worth it.

At some point there does cease to be anything useful that can be gained by these trials. I don't know enough about it to say but my opinion was based on the fact that I can't imagine a scenario where purely circumstantial evidence is enough to secure extradition for trial.

Ha ha. I would advise against using that word in California - you would be accused of a hate crime!

What word? Sorry I don't follow

[Jacque67 7,328]

On another note the reclamation of art works stolen by the Nazis is a royal pain in the proverbial.

[Jacque67 7,328]

At some point there does cease to be anything useful that can be gained by these trials. I don't know enough about it to say but my opinion was based on the fact that I can't imagine a scenario where purely circumstantial evidence is enough to secure extradition for trial.

What word? Sorry I don't follow

Oh a friend of mine referred to a lawyer in court in California as a Jew, which he was. He was sued for a hate crime! Go figure.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

It is sad. I see everyday people just like you and me whose lives are shattered and disrupted through no fault of their own. They just want to go to work, eat, raise their families and enjoy life a little bit. They didn't chose the wars or purges or their leaders in many cases. I can't imagine what it would be like to live somewhere when I couldn't go grocery shopping or let kids play at the park without fear of being killed. Mind boggling.

You mean like most any major city in America that has been run by liberal democrats for any period of time