Canadian Citizen removed with 5 year ban - unique situation

[Krikit 1,165]

One abusive post has been removed and the member banned from thread. Please keep your comments constructive. Thank you.

[twin810s 23]

haha so visitors should just have their a.... sitting on a chair the whole stay and enjoy beer and food.

Correct, lest they get banned for helping out. But, while I may not agree, I do understand; there are large organizations, unions, etc of labourers who's sole job is to do exactly that: wrap cables and touch guitar picks. If my buddy decides to help us tear down at the end of the night, that's a gig that did not go to someone who would otherwise be hired to do so. And while the average person can see a clear distinction between a buddy wrapping cables for an indie band that isn't getting paid anyway and a union stagehand loading Justin Timberlake's PA and staging out of Madison Square Garden, at its core, they are doing the same job, just one person is a US Citizen (or otherwise legally authorized labourer), and the other is someone who came from another country (and, by definition, misrepresented themselves) as a visitor, and is now performing a task that the aforementioned labourer will not be hired to perform. Rather than operate in grey areas and worry about where to draw the line between 'helping a buddy' and 'illegally taking a job away from an American', CBP boils it all down to its core, which is that someone entering the US as a visitor is not allowed to work in any capacity, paid or not, as it results in a job being taken away from someone who is legally able to work; be it wrapping a cable, babysitting, or setting up an IT network for a friend's new business.

To put the shoe on the other foot, how would it feel to know that you, being out of work, were not hired and paid to do the job that you possibly spent tens of thousands of dollars to be trained, educated and certified in, because someone (supposedly 'visiting' from another country, no less) was doing it, and for free? Just yesterday, I moved to the US from a city in southwestern Ontario, Canada which has both an incredibly large immigrant population (and massive seasonal migrant worker population) AND one of, if not THE, highest unemployment rate in Canada, and all people in that city do is complain about all the immigrants taking jobs from Canadians. We can't have it both ways.

Ultimately, the law is the law, and one does not have to agree with CBP's distinctions and interpretations for it to exist. It is what it is, and when entering another country, one needs to be informed of the legalities surrounding what they can or cannot do while in that country or suffer the consequences.

Edited June 12, 2014 by twin810s

[loladolly 51]

Correct, lest they get banned for helping out. But, while I may not agree, I do understand; there are large organizations, unions, etc of labourers who's sole job is to do exactly that: wrap cables and touch guitar picks. If my buddy decides to help us tear down at the end of the night, that's a gig that did not go to someone who would otherwise be hired to do so. And while the average person can see a clear distinction between a buddy wrapping cables for an indie band that isn't getting paid anyway and a union stagehand loading Justin Timberlake's PA and staging out of Madison Square Garden, at its core, they are doing the same job, just one person is a US Citizen (or otherwise legally authorized labourer), and the other is someone who came from another country (and, by definition, misrepresented themselves) as a visitor, and is now performing a task that the aforementioned labourer will not be hired to perform. Rather than operate in grey areas and worry about where to draw the line between 'helping a buddy' and 'illegally taking a job away from an American', CBP boils it all down to its core, which is that someone entering the US as a visitor is not allowed to work in any capacity, paid or not, as it results in a job being taken away from someone who is legally able to work; be it wrapping a cable, babysitting, or setting up an IT network for a friend's new business.

To put the shoe on the other foot, how would it feel to know that you, being out of work, were not hired and paid to do the job that you possibly spent tens of thousands of dollars to be trained, educated and certified in, because someone (supposedly 'visiting' from another country, no less) was doing it, and for free? Just yesterday, I moved to the US from a city in southwestern Ontario, Canada which has both an incredibly large immigrant population (and massive seasonal migrant worker population) AND one of, if not THE, highest unemployment rate in Canada, and all people in that city do is complain about all the immigrants taking jobs from Canadians. We can't have it both ways.

Ultimately, the law is the law, and one does not have to agree with CBP's distinctions and interpretations for it to exist. It is what it is, and when entering another country, one needs to be informed of the legalities surrounding what they can or cannot do while in that country or suffer the consequences.

Yeah well in the case of the grandparents, it should not be considered foreigners taking a babysitter's job illegally, this is totally absurd.... family is family and i would never hire a babysitter anyway because they are too expensive and i prefer having my in laws doing it for free (i just give a little bit of money to my teenager brother in law and that's it) the same way my foreign parents would do it so they would not be taking anyone's job anyway. So i just meant that in some cases they should definitely review their helping/working correlation. And again i am not going to keep my mom to spend time alone with my children while i am out so she can claim she "worked" illegally. That would be the stupidest thing ever.

Anyway it is good i still hang out on VJ every once in a while so i can get info for y parents to what to say or not say when they enter.

[twin810s 23]

Yeah well in the case of the grandparents, it should not be considered foreigners taking a babysitter's job illegally, this is totally absurd.... family is family and i would never hire a babysitter anyway because they are too expensive and i prefer having my in laws doing it for free (i just give a little bit of money to my teenager brother in law and that's it) the same way my foreign parents would do it so they would not be taking anyone's job anyway. So i just meant that in some cases they should definitely review their helping/working correlation. And again i am not going to keep my mom to spend time alone with my children while i am out so she can claim she "worked" illegally. That would be the stupidest thing ever.

Anyway it is good i still hang out on VJ every once in a while so i can get info for y parents to what to say or not say when they enter.

I totally understand where you're coming from. All I'm saying is whether or not we understand, agree with, or like them, laws exist and we have to abide by them.

[loladolly 51]

I totally understand where you're coming from. All I'm saying is whether or not we understand, agree with, or like them, laws exist and we have to abide by them.

Yeah i am aware now but i won't change my behavior to stupidity, my mom will still watch my kids or do the dishes (in case she is accused of taking a maid's job) if i need her to just like when my dad comes in October i won't keep him from helping my husband settling us in the new house we are buying (even lawn mowing or paint finishes) just like i don't feel guilty making him help us preparing the bedroom for our son 3 years ago.

What i generally mean is if someone doesn't want to pay for a service or hire a "professional"they can find a way to get the same free service from a USC/legal worker and it won't give more jobs anyway. So in the case of "helping' being considered illegal work and being enforced so thoroughly by CPB, they just make themselves look like idiots... For the sake and sanity of us foreign nationals they could be a little more flexible.

[Maria and Jason 55]

The NAFTA is only for corporation, it doesn't help citizens of both countries at all. Every time democrats are in power, the borders with Canada close up.

Having crossed the borders hundreds of times over the last few years, I can tell you that neither side is better than the other.

All this talk of a USA/CANADA partnership or common border and it only got worst over the last 5-6 years.

It think the illegals have an easier time in the US than Canadians do and Vice-Versa.

[Caryh 5,206]

Yeah i am aware now but i won't change my behavior to stupidity, my mom will still watch my kids or do the dishes (in case she is accused of taking a maid's job) if i need her to just like when my dad comes in October i won't keep him from helping my husband settling us in the new house we are buying (even lawn mowing or paint finishes) just like i don't feel guilty making him help us preparing the bedroom for our son 3 years ago.

What i generally mean is if someone doesn't want to pay for a service or hire a "professional"they can find a way to get the same free service from a USC/legal worker and it won't give more jobs anyway. So in the case of "helping' being considered illegal work and being enforced so thoroughly by CPB, they just make themselves look like idiots... For the sake and sanity of us foreign nationals they could be a little more flexible.

CBP are law enforcement officials. And law enforcement officials jobs are to enforce the law and gather evidence or a confession when they believe a law has been broken. A judge makes a determination if the law was actually broken and what the punishment should be if the law was broken. It has also been established that law enforcement officials may lie in order to gather evidence or a confession. The OP could have chosen to be arrested, and go before a judge to argue his case. Instead he chose to sign a confession and agree with a 5 year ban, even if he did not agree with the definition of intending to work in the USA. He was then allowed to leave and go on his way. Never expect a law enforcement official to decide to decide the fairness of a case, its not their job, and you probably wouldn't want them being your judge in any case. They deal with so many trying to break the law, that their view of the world tends to get fairly jaded. I've known law enforcement officials personally and they generally do not have the best view of the world, they see too much of its underside.

You're trying to relate what happens in your own home to what happens inside what is essentially a police station, the border crossing point. You would not act like you do in your own home like you would a police station, but many seem to forget that is exactly what these border crossing points are and they forget the person checking them through are not simple clerks but law enforcement officers. Would you blame the cops if you went into a police station and dropped a bag of weed on the floor for arresting or ticketing you? Or would you blame your own stupidity with bringing it there in the first place and not leaving it at home?

[loladolly 51]

CBP are law enforcement officials. And law enforcement officials jobs are to enforce the law and gather evidence or a confession when they believe a law has been broken. A judge makes a determination if the law was actually broken and what the punishment should be if the law was broken. It has also been established that law enforcement officials may lie in order to gather evidence or a confession. The OP could have chosen to be arrested, and go before a judge to argue his case. Instead he chose to sign a confession and agree with a 5 year ban, even if he did not agree with the definition of intending to work in the USA. He was then allowed to leave and go on his way. Never expect a law enforcement official to decide to decide the fairness of a case, its not their job, and you probably wouldn't want them being your judge in any case. They deal with so many trying to break the law, that their view of the world tends to get fairly jaded. I've known law enforcement officials personally and they generally do not have the best view of the world, they see too much of its underside.

You're trying to relate what happens in your own home to what happens inside what is essentially a police station, the border crossing point. You would not act like you do in your own home like you would a police station, but many seem to forget that is exactly what these border crossing points are and they forget the person checking them through are not simple clerks but law enforcement officers. Would you blame the cops if you went into a police station and dropped a bag of weed on the floor for arresting or ticketing you? Or would you blame your own stupidity with bringing it there in the first place and not leaving it at home?

Not at all, i don't believe i am doing anything wrong in my home, i would act the same everywhere. Everyone has its own interpretation of the law and i think border takes it too far and that's it. I am really amazed by their stupidity i must say. Anyway my point of view is not going to change anything so i'll just leave it to this say "the truth is sometimes best left unsaid"

[Caryh 5,206]

Not at all, i don't believe i am doing anything wrong in my home, i would act the same everywhere. Everyone has its own interpretation of the law and i think border takes it too far and that's it. I am really amazed by their stupidity i must say. Anyway my point of view is not going to change anything so i'll just leave it to this say "the truth is sometimes best left unsaid"

All I've got to say to that is I truly hope you never have to deal with law enforcement with an issue where your idea of what the law is conflicts with what they've been trained to know as the law. It will get ugly. There's nothing inherently right or wrong in any law, laws are what they are, words on paper. Law Enforcement enforces the law to the word, Judges decide if the law is being applied per its intended purpose. If you want to see enforcement, flaunt something that law enforcement views as illegal. If you want fairness, go on to the courts and plead your case with the judge. You might be advised to double check if it has not ever been tried before, as that case law will play a major part of any attempt the prove the law was applied incorrectly. BTW I'm in total agreement we should not need to worry about family breaking the law if they come to the country to help out after a birth. I just know its been interpreted and enforced that way, and nothing I'm going to do will change that.

[Lights 56]

Wow, I really hope you come to Canada and break a rule you didn't know about at the border. Then, be told about it and sent on your way being treated with dignity and respect the Canadian way!!!

I sat on a concrete slab for 9.5 hours and not given anything to eat or drink until I was 7 hours into the process in which I received cold pop tarts and a can of coke. I informed the CBP officers I had not eaten anything and was hungry and even willing to pay for food delivery!!! Sitting on a cold concrete slab certainly didn't help my enlarged prostate and made me have to go to the bathroom every half hour at which time I needed to ask permission to do so! I wasn't in a holding cell. I was in the lobby of the CBP office!

If I don't know the laws of your country since I am not from your country, then how am I supposed to know what they are unless someone informs me? No, not every office has IT certificates on the wall! I'm an honest person. If I truly wanted to intentionally enter the US for work and lie about it, I wouldn't of brought my original IT certifications in their original frames!!! I would have either not bring them at all or shipped them separately!!!

Your CBP officers have a job to do to protect their country and citizens from people entering the country to do harm to the country. I was not doing that! I was going to help a friend get his business set up so he would be able to open the doors sooner and help the US economy. All the while I was doing this for free and heading back to Canada after 3 weeks!!! wow, I guess I should of been executed in front of a firing squad instead right?

OP, I understand your frustration, but at the end of the day... what we don't know, is still our responsibility.

I'm sure CBP officers do get non USC come through the border and are aware of exactly what they're doing is illegal. But when caught, they would say, "I didn't know. I'm from xyz". I'm not saying this is what you did, but if you look at your situation outside looking in, you have to see what you did, didn't exactly put you in the best light. Even though you were being honest, someone who doesn't know you at all sees you coming through a few times, with paperwork, and such. It looks very suspicious.

Have you watched Border Security? It's actually a Canadian show that shows people entering the US. Canadians have similar laws. I remember an episode where a tattoo artist came in to help his friends new shop. He didn't have appropriate work visa and was denied entry. I don't remember if he was going to get paid or not. There was also another episode of a guy on his way to edmonton. He said he wasn't working and helping someone with his business... but they found a resume in his bag and denied him entry. A resume, a certification, just gives more reason for them to think you're illegally working. It's something you showed them and brought over the border and they have to go with the evidence that is there.

Many of us on this forum have gone through the immigration process where we can get scrutinized for our intentions and what we're doing. Why are you marrying a USC? Is it real love? Is it a sham? We've also seen our fair share of frauds and those trying to bend the rules to fit them. It's made it harder on those who wait the processing times to get it done correctly.

At the end of it, the CBP agents were just doing their job. Yes, some are nicer than others but they are still doing their job. Not knowing isn't a good enough reason to be let off the hook. And the documentation that you brought, obviously made it worse for yourself. To them you're either 1) giving your certification for false credibility for the business because you're technically not working there so your credentials are lent (which doesn't look good either) or 2) you actually have intentions to work there, given why you had your credentials.

As a Canadian who is moving to the US (in a week and a half - eek!!!), I know my parents will come and visit and if we need help with anything, they would try and help. Or if they decide to do the dishes, they're just being considerate house guests. Obviously, this is much different from someone helping a friend build a business and 'lending' credentials than a mother who's helping her daughter with a newborn by turning the dishwasher on.

CBP agents have common sense and discretion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen many threads open where someone says: My mom was asked at the border what she'll be doing during her visit and she said she'll be lounging at the beach and spending time with her daughter and new grand-baby. And the CBP agent proceeded to ban her because she was working as a nanny. But I have seen threads and have read other articles where people come in and accidentally work and say they didn't know, such as a photographer coming into the country to do a shoot not realizing that they need proper work visa to do it.

Sorry to hear this happened to you... and hope there is a way where you're not banned for the full 5 years. Sounds like an honest mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. And what you brought and told them, just didn't shine you in the right light. They fully believed you came in to work, illegally. Some of the things you brought cemented that. Good luck!

[Jon York 156]

USA law enforcement officials are allowed to lie to suspects in order to get a confession. This is standard operating procedure now.

The work you intended to do, was work that could have been paid for had you not done it, and you yourself admit one day you hope to work for him. You cannot do work for free that takes work away from a citizen or legal resident. You also cannot do work that would normally be paid for in the hopes to one day be working for pay when you can legally work. Your chances of fighting this and winning are equal to zero.

That's not true. It appears that being a new business his friend couldn't afford to pay anybody. Webman said he had two other people, US Citizens, doing the work for free too. So apparently Webman's doing this free work would have only taken work away from people who were willing to work for free. And that's not taking work away from people.

[Caryh 5,206]

That's not true. It appears that being a new business his friend couldn't afford to pay anybody. Webman said he had two other people, US Citizens, doing the work for free too. So apparently Webman's doing this free work would have only taken work away from people who were willing to work for free. And that's not taking work away from people.

I believe you're misunderstanding the meaning of the word "could". Could is not an absolute, and that is apparently how CBP appear to define it. It does not matter to them if the work could have been obtained for free. The word that truly matters is "work", paid or otherwise you are not allowed to "work" without authorization in the USA, and in most countries.

Apparently people are assuming I support or somehow enforce this law and have a personal stake in it. I do not, and I also think its often overbearing. But I do have a grasp on how CBP views it, and don't want to see visitors banned from the USA because of how I might like the law to work, rather than how it actually does and how CBP will enforce it.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Caryh

[Lights 56]

That's not true. It appears that being a new business his friend couldn't afford to pay anybody. Webman said he had two other people, US Citizens, doing the work for free too. So apparently Webman's doing this free work would have only taken work away from people who were willing to work for free. And that's not taking work away from people.

But it's a job that would have been normally paid.

When I was researching whether or not I could volunteer during my time waiting for my EAD, the conclusion was that jobs that normally are predominately not volunteer positions, but become non-paid volunteer positions are not allowed. For example: If a non-profit use to have a paid accountant on staff, but now they have a volunteer position, this is a no-no. But, if the non-profit is an animal shelter and all non administrative roles such as animal care-takers, fundraisers etc. are generally always volunteer, this is OK.

Also, wanted to edit my first post because I didn't see the error until after posting (and now can't edit)... the show, Border Security showcases people entering CANADA not us.

[Jon York 156]

But it's a job that would have been normally paid.

Not necessarily. If the business owner doesn't have the money, then he can't pay anybody to do it. Money doesn't just spit out from heaven because you're starting a business! Sometimes owners of startups simply don't have the money to pay people to help them in the beginning. If they can get a little free help from a friend, then that can be the difference between the business succeeding or never getting off the ground. If it never gets off the ground then no USC will ever be paid by it. If it does get off the ground however, then probably many USCs will earn a wage from it.

I know that's not what the CBP looks at or is even capable of determining. But I'm just commenting on the realities of starting a business. You say it's a job that would have "normally" been paid. Well normally maybe if it was an already-existing business. But in a startup, a lot of things go normally unpaid.

[Boiler 46,031]

Payment is irrelevant.