less is more debate

[Mark Collard 0]

we were thinking.....we have so much proof of having met and an ongoing relationship that we were wondering if maybe we had too much. sounds silly at first, but what if it 1. it kinda looks fake cos we spent more time planning evidence than having a relationship or 2. just annoys the officer cos they have so much stuff to look at? i mean we all have bad days at the office so to speak

just a thought

[KarenCee 3]

that's totally up to you, as to how much you send. it's your comfort level. some have sent the bare minimum and have been approved. some have sent lots and have been approved.

btw, you might fill in your timeline...makes it easier to answer questions

[john_and_marlene 162]

btw, you might fill in your timeline...makes it easier to answer questions

[aussiewench 9]

Its not a matter of how much evidence you submit of having met within the required 2 years but the value of that evidence and whether it is found to prove this fact. As for an over abundance of relationship evidence, it is unnecessary at the petition stage. Whether it affects ones petition may be dependant on what, if anything that may be misconstrued by an adjudicator. Creating questions that need answering, perhaps resulting in RFE's that may not of been sent otherwise. Who know's. That is why many of us recommend to send what is required and to send what constitutes strong evidence of having met. Why create possible issues when there is no need to.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

btw, you might fill in your timeline...makes it easier to answer questions

Not really. This question can be answered without a timeline.

But, fill out a timeline as a courtesy to others.

[Mand 1]

I would choose the most relevant pieces to include in your petition. Make as easy as possible for the adjudicating officer to get a good overview of your relationship.

We lived together in Ireland, so we also had a large amount of stuff to choose from.

In the end we included

* 4 pictures of us together, 2 of which had some of my family members in them.

* 3 e-mails

* the 1st page of both of our mobile phone bills showing texts to each other, billing address and name.

* letter of intent from Rob

* His Irish work permit and stamps

All the rest we kept as evidence for the interview: more pictures, e-mails, birthday cards, Valentine cards etc.

Good Luck!

[Peter Miami 0]

Its not a matter of how much evidence you submit of having met within the required 2 years but the value of that evidence and whether it is found to prove this fact. As for an over abundance of relationship evidence, it is unnecessary at the petition stage. Whether it affects ones petition may be dependant on what, if anything that may be misconstrued by an adjudicator. Creating questions that need answering, perhaps resulting in RFE's that may not of been sent otherwise. Who know's. That is why many of us recommend to send what is required and to send what constitutes strong evidence of having met. Why create possible issues when there is no need to.

Like aussiewench stated it is the quality! I also sent in a lot of quantity but that is your choice.

Good luck,

Peter Miami

[Boris 0]

I think they will not have time to look at all the photos and all the letters, so it is not necessary to take so much. But I know also that I will take a lot of them because there are many of them so sweet so maybe I want to show tham all to the coucellor.

[3AD 0]

Mark,

It's their job to go through paperwork, so I wouldn't worry about that too much. I thought about the theory of "too much evidence appears like a setup," but after research found that perception is not too likely.

But what really ended the "less is more debate" for me is when I hired an immigration lawyer who is familiar with the petition and consulate processes, and the relationship between the two in terms of submitting evidence. Even without a lawyer, if you study the law closely you'll understand the logic of why sending "too much" evidence to USCIS is not a bad idea at all in the sense that to deny a visa, consulates must find reason over and above what USCIS has already reviewed and approved. In short, having a rock solid application at the USCIS level makes it difficult for a consulate to overrule their approval and send it back to USCIS. The evidence I sent to USCIS would be enough for a consulate adjudication as well. So at the interview, my fiance will just take more of the same to show a continuation of the relationship from the date that I sent my app to USCIS. But aside from the financial support information, in terms of quality of evidence, nothing new will be presented at the consulate that USCIS didn't see.

This debate is controversial and there will be some who disagree with me. But in my research, knowledgeable attorneys tend to come down on the same side due to their awareness of the nuances of the law.

3AD

[scy 0]

Mark,

It's their job to go through paperwork, so I wouldn't worry about that too much. I thought about the theory of "too much evidence appears like a setup," but after research found that perception is not too likely.

But what really ended the "less is more debate" for me is when I hired an immigration lawyer who is familiar with the petition and consulate processes, and the relationship between the two in terms of submitting evidence. Even without a lawyer, if you study the law closely you'll understand the logic of why sending "too much" evidence to USCIS is not a bad idea at all in the sense that to deny a visa, consulates must find reason over and above what USCIS has already reviewed and approved. In short, having a rock solid application at the USCIS level makes it difficult for a consulate to overrule their approval and send it back to USCIS. The evidence I sent to USCIS would be enough for a consulate adjudication as well. So at the interview, my fiance will just take more of the same to show a continuation of the relationship from the date that I sent my app to USCIS. But aside from the financial support information, in terms of quality of evidence, nothing new will be presented at the consulate that USCIS didn't see.

This debate is controversial and there will be some who disagree with me. But in my research, knowledgeable attorneys tend to come down on the same side due to their awareness of the nuances of the law.

3AD

Here is a person who sent a lot of "evidence" with the I-129F. His petition ended up being returned to USCIS anyways. More is not necessarily better. Quality over quantity.

http://www.vuscouple.com/vyoufinder/approved.htm

[Kajikit 65]

If you think you have 'too much' evidence be selective about what you send... a hundred love-letters doesn't really prove anything more than two would, except that you have LOTS of time on your hands to write!

[motu 6]

I don't like overkill. I only sent in 2 pictures of us together and a copy of my itinerary. She took a few emails and chat records to the interview. Nothing more. Do what makes you comfortable - I liked my short and concise 16 page petition! Good Luck

[kaydee457 13]

Mark,

Even without a lawyer, if you study the law closely you'll understand the logic of why sending "too much" evidence to USCIS is not a bad idea at all in the sense that to deny a visa, consulates must find reason over and above what USCIS has already reviewed and approved.

In short, having a rock solid application at the USCIS level makes it difficult for a consulate to overrule their approval and send it back to USCIS. The evidence I sent to USCIS would be enough for a consulate adjudication as well. So at the interview, my fiance will just take more of the same to show a continuation of the relationship from the date that I sent my app to USCIS. But aside from the financial support information, in terms of quality of evidence, nothing new will be presented at the consulate that USCIS didn't see.

This debate is controversial and there will be some who disagree with me. But in my research, knowledgeable attorneys tend to come down on the same side due to their awareness of the nuances of the law.

3AD

The sentences I punctuated in your comments is where these theories irk me the most as I have seen this passed on in these forums for more than a year now.

Firstly, simply because you stuff your envelope with superfluous information doesn't necessarily imply that the adjudicator "evaluated and approved" it. This notion that if you stuff something in your envelope and it gets passed on to the Consulate that it was somehow evaluated and approved is anecdotal and not fact. It is someone's theory.

In a I-129F petition submittal package that was prepared coherently, whereby evidence is grouped logically, the adjudicator would reference the relevant evidence submitted to answer the question at hand; how and when did you meet your fiancee in the past two years? Evaluating the relationship evidence frankly isn't their job and is not the task at hand and because it's in front of them shouldn't lead one to believe that it has been "approved".

For instance, I could enclose 100 emails with my application but the emails add nothing to substantiate any of the questions put to me in the I-129F petition and therefore the emails are going to be ignored in terms of answering the aforementioned question, or worse yet read and the subsequently the content raising questions that result in an RFE. In fact this happened to at least two persons in these forums.

I subscribe to the simple philosophy; if it wasn't asked for then don't submit it. Follow the instructions on the petition; answer the questions without ambiguity; supply the evidence requested and you'll have no problem.

P.S. One should understand the difference between "primary" and "secondary" evidence before submitting an I-129F.

Edited March 8, 2006 by kaydee457

[Jenn! 918]

Mark,

Even without a lawyer, if you study the law closely you'll understand the logic of why sending "too much" evidence to USCIS is not a bad idea at all in the sense that to deny a visa, consulates must find reason over and above what USCIS has already reviewed and approved.

In short, having a rock solid application at the USCIS level makes it difficult for a consulate to overrule their approval and send it back to USCIS. The evidence I sent to USCIS would be enough for a consulate adjudication as well. So at the interview, my fiance will just take more of the same to show a continuation of the relationship from the date that I sent my app to USCIS. But aside from the financial support information, in terms of quality of evidence, nothing new will be presented at the consulate that USCIS didn't see.

This debate is controversial and there will be some who disagree with me. But in my research, knowledgeable attorneys tend to come down on the same side due to their awareness of the nuances of the law.

3AD

The sentences I punctuated in your comments is where these theories irk me the most as I have seen this passed on in these forums for more than a year now.

Firstly, simply because you stuff your envelope with superfluous information doesn't necessarily imply that the adjudicator "evaluated and approved" it. This notion that if you stuff something in your envelope and it gets passed on to the Consulate that it was somehow evaluated and approved is anecdotal and not fact. It is someone's theory.

In a I-129F petition submittal package that was prepared coherently, whereby evidence is grouped logically, the adjudicator would reference the relevant evidence submitted to answer the question at hand; how and when did you meet your fiancee in the past two years? Evaluating the relationship evidence frankly isn't their job and is not the task at hand and because it's in front of them shouldn't lead one to believe that it has been "approved".

For instance, I could enclose 100 emails with my application but the emails add nothing to substantiate any of the questions put to me in the I-129F petition and therefore the emails are going to be ignored in terms of answering the aforementioned question, or worse yet read and the subsequently the content raising questions that result in an RFE. In fact this happened to at least two persons in these forums.

I subscribe to the simple philosophy; if it wasn't asked for then don't submit it. Follow the instructions on the petition; answer the questions without ambiguity; supply the evidence requested and you'll have no problem.

P.S. One should understand the difference between "primary" and "secondary" evidence before submitting an I-129F.

I agree with each of you to a certain extent.

We went with the "less is more" philosophy and were approved without issue at the USCIS and consular levels. However, recent developments have me questioning the "less is more" approach. For instance, K1 visa petitions through Morocco have been sent back to the US for review quite often recently. I fear that decisions are being made at the Moroccan consulate prior to the interview, based upon evidence submitted in the original 129F application. That being said, if I were to be going through Morocco from this point on, I would surely alter my method to the "more is more" approach.

Of course, like many other questions raised here on VJ, what I presented above is a consular-specific issue. I would still argue that at your "average" consulate, this issue would not arise, and the "less is more" approach would be sufficient.

[kaydee457 13]

I think the title of this thread needs to be changed from "less is more" to "compliance or non-compliance" as it clearly is out of context with reality.

The "debate" is whether one should comply and adhere to the I-129F instructions in terms of submittal or not comply and add lots of superflous information that wasn't asked for.

"Less is more" does not convey the fact that I and others advocate simply following the instructions. When did it become fasionable to ignore explicit instructions to, I suppose, out finesse the USCIS.