Have you been MENA-ized by your SO?

[doodlebug 3]

i was under the impression (this impression given to me by muslim people) that the scarf and djellaba are worn so that men won't be tempted when they look at you. for modesty. but just because you cover your skin but wear tight clothes, is that still modest? i really am asking and don't mean to offend. if what i was told is correct, then wearing tight jeans and a scarf don't make sense to me. if i'm wrong, then please explain. i just want to be educated futher.

Firstly I can understand how someone would take offense though it is soooooo sooooo hard to understand what a person's intent is on the internet since there is no facial expression or vocal tone on these threads. I kind of think if I commented that I've seen tons and tons of Christians sleeping around and not ever going to church and asked if that is part of Christianity, people would get offended.

If you see people with tight jeans on and a scarf on their head, who knows what their intent is. Maybe they used to dress a heck of a lot worse before they became Muslim and this is like step 5 in their progression of becoming more modest, maybe they grew up muslim and don't wanna wear the scarf at all but just throw the thing on 'cause their parents make them and they wear the tight jeans out of protest. Only way to find out for sure is to stop and ask them. There is no uniform for muslims to wear, it's all an individual thing and I can't judge why this one does this or that one does that. That is for Allah to do at the end of their life and for them to answer for when they are being judged. What I think doesn't matter in the end.

Hope that helps and if you truly want info on Islam, I've learned the hard way that here is not the place to ask. There are tons of helpful sites out there and Rhama is our resident internet link queen so I'm sure she or others could lend a helping hand in pasting some links. The Idiot's Guide to Islam is a good place to start. It's an easy read and is what got me intrigued about the religion when I first started researching it.

[sereia 0]

Firstly I can understand how someone would take offense though it is soooooo sooooo hard to understand what a person's intent is on the internet since there is no facial expression or vocal tone on these threads. I kind of think if I commented that I've seen tons and tons of Christians sleeping around and not ever going to church and asked if that is part of Christianity, people would get offended.

If you see people with tight jeans on and a scarf on their head, who knows what their intent is. Maybe they used to dress a heck of a lot worse before they became Muslim and this is like step 5 in their progression of becoming more modest, maybe they grew up muslim and don't wanna wear the scarf at all but just throw the thing on 'cause their parents make them and they wear the tight jeans out of protest. Only way to find out for sure is to stop and ask them. There is no uniform for muslims to wear, it's all an individual thing and I can't judge why this one does this or that one does that. That is for Allah to do at the end of their life and for them to answer for when they are being judged. What I think doesn't matter in the end.

Hope that helps and if you truly want info on Islam, I've learned the hard way that here is not the place to ask. There are tons of helpful sites out there and Rhama is our resident internet link queen so I'm sure she or others could lend a helping hand in pasting some links. The Idiot's Guide to Islam is a good place to start. It's an easy read and is what got me intrigued about the religion when I first started researching it.

I think you're right about not asking around here. I'll stick to my original intent and get information on the visa process and ways to help my fiance adjust to living in the US. I'll save the Islamic questions for others.

I think I haven't been getting my point across the right way. You can't see me, my tone, and know who I am and my past to know my intent.

[mybackpages 0]

i wasn't referring to you. i already made that clear. it was a comment based off of reading what you said that reminded me of something i see all the time in the united states and morocco. its just a question directed at everyone! i'm not accusing you or judging your religious beliefs. that is none of my business.

i was in morocco less than a week ago and saw many women wearing tight jeans and tight shirts with a scarf. i was simply asking what the purpose of this was. i am trying to get it clear to give me futher knowledge of islam and their traditions. i was under the impression (this impression given to me by muslim people) that the scarf and djellaba are worn so that men won't be tempted when they look at you. for modesty. but just because you cover your skin but wear tight clothes, is that still modest? i really am asking and don't mean to offend. if what i was told is correct, then wearing tight jeans and a scarf don't make sense to me. if i'm wrong, then please explain. i just want to be educated futher.

Here'sm what is interesating and IMO important about understanding hijab for women. The djellaba is older than Islam in Morocco. When Islam is introduced to Morocco, the sensibilities about modesty in Morocco seemed to adapt to Islam and today woman can wear djellaba as a form of Islamic dress. So it makes sense to me that as islm is introduced to a more western nation such as the US , that our sense of style can also be adapted and made to match the believer's understanding of hijab.

I als onotice exactly what you notice about choice of clothing (tight jeans/shirts) as long as it also has a scarf. Sometimes that is sexier than more revealing clothing. But for some because skin is all covered, its considered modest.

[mybackpages 0]

I think you're right about not asking around here. I'll stick to my original intent and get information on the visa process and ways to help my fiance adjust to living in the US. I'll save the Islamic questions for others.

I think I haven't been getting my point across the right way. You can't see me, my tone, and know who I am and my past to know my intent.

Just keep in mind there is a history here too. Just like a family we have some that bicker and some that are close. The more you are on VJ, the more you start to know the personalities of the people, the more interactions you have witnessed, the better you understand why some post as they do. I am glad you have joined us!

Just remember when a question is asked, everyone has an opinion and there are some strong confident women here who love a good discussion. I for one love to talk and even if we disagree, its justme saying what I think (which can mean as little or as much as the reader wants to take from it). It's apublic forum and we are all very differnt from each other and i bet without the visa process being in common, most of us wouldn't normally be friends in real life . ...does that sound bad?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Just keep in mind there is a history here too. Just like a family we have some that bicker and some that are close. The more you are on VJ, the more you start to know the personalities of the people, the more interactions you have witnessed, the better you understand why some post as they do. I am glad you have joined us!

Just remember when a question is asked, everyone has an opinion and there are some strong confident women here who love a good discussion. I for one love to talk and even if we disagree, its justme saying what I think (which can mean as little or as much as the reader wants to take from it). It's apublic forum and we are all very differnt from each other and i bet without the visa process being in common, most of us wouldn't normally be friends in real life . ...does that sound bad?

Hahhahaha MBP you ain't never lied !

It's hard to just step into this forum and instantly understand all the dynamics and all the personalities. Some of us have been here for quite some time and I have to say we've seen some *ahem* incredible things -- often that may influence our replies.

But anywayyyy welcome to the ME/NA forum, abdounjen -- I'm glad you joined us, and I'm wishing you the very best of luck in your visa journey !

-MK

[Private 1]

I did say I am sorry in advance because it would be hard for someone that is not muslim to understand how it feels. Do you think you are the only person that askes us questions? No I have to hear this ####### all day and at some point it becomes annoying. I have to work at the D'awah thing however, I think I made a few points. I see women that wear shorts up there cracks and posses for playboy and then claim that they are Christian. I have studied Hijib thoroughly and from my studies I see that Jewisha nd Christain women are suppose to cover there heads. Now I am not trying to debate because I am not curious or care for that matter about what you guys do. However, think like this. If you where to become a born again Christain and you had a boyfriend do you think you would dump him becuase you are having sex. We have the five pillars of Islam, Pray, Charity, Hajj, Fasting, and Shahada. This is the fondation of being a mulims. To me if you are in to these things and as you profress through them you become more "muslim" I am not sure how to say it.

When you become muslim you take shahada and then you being praying. AS you pray you will being your connection with Allah and you will be able to progress. The key to being muslim IN MY OPINION is the pray. Everything else comes naturally you know, you will start to want to know more and get more into sometimes to fast. Hijib in my opinion is everything concerning a woman. From her head to her toes and it is a form of worship. PLEASE REMEMBER I SAID THAT THIS IS MY OPINION. The way I talk, they way I deal with people, the way I look, the way I care for others and my family, lowering my gaze, overall the way I carry myself.

I must say if you wear a scraf and then you still are flirting and give out "f" me signs, I would say that this is not hijib. I am in the miltary and people ask me why do you not wear the scarf at work. The "SCARF" has turned in to a political symbol. I am not sure how to answer some people on this topic, but I will say that my uniform is that, it has a standard and it is made to be form fitting. So if it is form fitting then there is no way possible that I would be wearing hijib as far as dress, on top of that I would also be drawing attention to myself in an environment which is not structured the same way. However when I am off duty I wear hijib completely and I do not care that much about how they thing of me. But to have a big I am different sign up in the military is not the best thing and in my opinion it would draw a lot of attention. God never told women to place yourself in danger. now if the uniform was more loss fitting like that of the air forces and Army and it is not that big of a distraction then I would wear, but if the uniform is not fit with the scarf I do nto see the point. But I think that my attitude and my behavior "Screams" Muslim. People, the big give away is the pork, because you have to ask everyone that handles food. And the first thing they say is are you muslim. I pray still and I observe ramadan, and I also docorate the office when the EID is in. I have food and also I have some da'wah materials in case someone wants to know. I listen to the Qur'an being recited at work and I also read the Quran because you do not know how much I want to choke folks sometimes and 5 mintues a day does wonders. Also they see come back and forth from work and around the base with it on. Also, I have quran ring tones. So when my phoen rings if you are a muslim you know.

It took me a long time to wear hijib to work and on the base and it also took some time to have the strenght to deal with the staring and the insults. I had some kids today talking loud in the grocery store (militay only) and they where yelling she must be from ASIA. It was cute, I guess that was the nicest things that I have heard.

I am so sorry to move the trend in to a different direction, but I will tell you one thing; folks at work thought that I convert because of my fiance and also they like my interest and study of Arabic is bcause of him. Which is funny because we speak mostly in french to each other and one time someone was like wow you speak arabic. It was funny. I have grown as a person and a muslim and again I am sorry if anyone feels bad about the post. However, I think that sometimes people say things and do not really listen to the question.

Anywho, I still think culture and religion is confused and it goes for the American muslim to. If you ever hear Nasheed you will find that there is Islamic Rap. The way of dress has already been discussed but the best thing is when I wear something and people are like wow i would wear that. The food we eat minus the pork, like greens with turkey necks or pork and beans-minus the pork. Things like this. ONe thing this reminds me of is the buritto or Raggee for me.

I do not know why but I never put these two items in there proper place. In texas we always eat burrittos and reggae i grow up on but I did not know it was from Jamacia, until I was like 22. The buritto things is funny because being from texas you kind of grow up with this competitive attitude towards Hispanics. Even though I would make stupid and believe stupid remarks that now I would never make about Mexica's, my favorite food is Nachos. So go figure.

Alot things that we have in your culture and society has branch off from the midle eastern part of the world. Like some mentioned Egypt, well we can go on forever just on that one. Ok.

[Private 1]

I tired to edit my post but it would not let me. I want to remove the food part.

But, One thing I have noticed is that some American muslim believe that marrying a person from a Islamic country will help them Islamically or is better than marrying American. I guess because they grew up in a so called muslim culture and they speak Arabic it is like we think they are better. Has anyone noticed this or is it just me?

[Henia 11]

hi guys new here

i guess its a bit different... my so is israeli... moroccan israeli.

ive always been interested in Israel, but my interest in the larger middle east has def grown since we started dating. ive never really loved american culture anyways, so i guess this is my outlet. his culture is very different from mine, but i love it, the family, the feeling, everything

Welcome to Vj and to the ME/NA forum... Bonne chance on your visa process!

[Henia 11]

Private, I can understand every point you made. And I totally agree with you.

As I have on VJ, this MENA forum for a while now, I am really glad to see some independent, intellegent and thinking women. Before, in the past I mostly came across women who just "did what their SO" told them to do, act, talk and behave. I kinda fell into this for a split second, cos I did not want to not fit in with my (ex)husband's family. But this got old pretty quick ... and I thought they could sod off with their idio-mentally deranged thinking. I almost left Islam cos of this, but I thank God I had the right mindframe to keep seeking and to take a rational look at myself, my faith and the world in which I live.

This is a great topic because when you are muslim and with an Arabic guy, you are accused of this a lot and I have to explain to people that I was muslim before I meet him. I am 24 and I am in the Navy for those that know me. I have always had an interest in Islam since I was 12 years old- most consider me to be a Malcolm X muslim. I tried to wear hijib, stopped eating pork, I would dress modestily and I visited a masjid one time after seriously beggin my mother to take me. But I did not convert, I just continue in learning of Black History and then it lead to African hisoty and this lead to Islam becuase it is a very important part of the history.

I got accepted in to a foreign lanuage program in High School and I started to study Arabic. When I joined the Navy I was offered the opportunity to be a translator in the language however, I decided against. After this I went to boot camp and there they had religious services and I attended the Islamic one, they asked who wanted to be muslim and I ran to the front. I never really understood how to become muslim but that day I did. Being in the military and being muslim is very hard when you do not know how to do it. So I did not practice a lot after this point. However, when I got to Philadelphia I began to see women in hijib and I felt a little lost. Not only this but after traveling to the middle east with the military I began to discover how much was true and was not. This was a very interesting part of my life and the interest came back.

I returned home and started to look for the masjid and I this is were the journey of metting my fiance bagan. I have been practicing for a long time and it is funny because it seem like before I thought that if I was to marry someone from a muslim country it would make me a better one. Well it seems like I know more than my fiance. It is funny becuase when he was told I was a convert he was so excited and h said that he wanted to teach me about islam and when he talks to me it is like "I know that." What makes me upset is the same happens with his family. The thing that my friend pointed out to me was that as being a convert he says we seem to do a research and also learn the different schools of thought. To were they do not learn anything but that one school and they do not question much. So I find myself having to explain and show things to my SO.

The thing that I hate is that I have been trying to learn Arabic for a long time, but my understand of french has been sparked by being with him. My mother and grandparents speak Crelo so Iunderstand most of it, but now I am in to the study of French because it seems to be easy and is very compabitily with english. Also it is helping with my English. (AS funny as this may sound.) I am also trying to understand his dialect of arabic however it becomes frustrating.

One thing some of his family said to me in the US is that I should go to the library and get some books on Morocco. Which pissed me off becuase what about him, he should go get a book about me. Also when I am try they are like Moroccans this and Moroccan that and it gets on my nerves because I am not Moroccan and I do not like everythign they do.

The culture has expanded my thinking and horizons a little but I refuse to change everything about myself. I know some ladies you would think they are Moroccan, they learn the language, they cook it, dress like and so change the entire house around. And then he was like she is a good wife, I was upset set because if this is what he expects he can forget it. I want to try and learn to cook different things, I find myself eating olives in the morning, and I am trying to learn because I really love to talk and if I continue this I will have to learn to speak with his family and his family is improving there english for me. This to me is great and not being MENA-ized but I have seen so many women that have done it.

It is not only crazy but it seems to make some people think that this is what we do. Me I like the intergrating factor and combining the cultures, I love the blue jeans and scarf look. I love culture and I would try to learn anyone's but not being me is something I can not do. I think I tired to hard at first but now I do not even care to get all in to it.

The tow people in a relationship will learn from each other no matter what type of situation it is, and I think it is the best part of the dual culture relationship. Even though this is something he learn bad, I think I have thought my So how to use the bad english words. It is so funny becuase remember I am a sailor and I need about 30 minutes after work to readjust. So if he calls while I am not work there is no telling what he will hear. So I was yelling at him and I was like you did not responded to my f-ing email. And he reply I did repsond the f-ing thing do not work. I died laughing, it seems like I understood him better when you used that word. (Being a sailor and all, the word goes in every sentence.)

So I taught him bad words but it is so ok. I can also tell you what it is in Arabic!!! And French!!!

[Henia 11]

interesting reply. i've been wondering about the blue jean/scarf look. i'm no expert on islam....let me say that first. so please, if someone who knows the answer, let me know.

but isn't the point of the hijab to cover yourself so men getting excited by you... and you are supposed to wear a djellaba also? if you wear tight jeans and a scarf, whats the point? men exactly aren't looking at hair to get turned on.

Modesty and moderation is the key in Islam. Muslims are of many and diverse backgrounds. Many faces, man langugaes and as many ways of dressing. Sure many dress in djellabas, but the dress is not limited to that. And not wearing djellaba has nothing to due with one's level of piety either. Just like wering niqaab has nothing to do with it.

[Henia 11]

i wasn't referring to the poster above with my jean comment...... its in general. i've seen a lot of women wear tight jeans, tight shirts, and a scarf......... just a question.

Well, where I live I see everything: from young children as young as 3 in full niqaab to women wearing tight skirts, women wearing leggys with short jean mini skirts over them, short sleeve blouses, clingy and see-throu materialed clothing and hijebs... and also matieral that makes all the curves even more visible and hijebs covering only half of the head. No one said it was right, but it is done. I think women who do this, really want to dress this way and only veil cos their families make them. And somehow I think they donnot leave the house in those clothes.

[Henia 11]

Private -- I think you're making many excellent points in your posts here. Well done !

-MK

I second that motion.

[Henia 11]

I tired to edit my post but it would not let me. I want to remove the food part.

But, One thing I have noticed is that some American muslim believe that marrying a person from a Islamic country will help them Islamically or is better than marrying American. I guess because they grew up in a so called muslim culture and they speak Arabic it is like we think they are better. Has anyone noticed this or is it just me?

About 10 yrs back here where I live now Detroit everyone told me that marrying a Arabe from ME was unheard of... arabes only married Arabes. This was somewhat true back then, but nowadays not true at all.

And for those who are thinking was... are, sorry to say backwards and ignorant...I think this thinking has nothing to do with Islam, as Islam allows for men to marry any peoples from the "Books" and reward is gained by showing Islam's message (I did not say convert but show) And there are scholars who say more reward is gained when a husband shows a women(wife) Islam and she converts willingly.

And again sorry to offend but mostly Salafis have this thinking. I am not sure, but I think there are no Salafis or W'habis on this forum.

[Private 1]

I tired to edit my post but it would not let me. I want to remove the food part.

But, One thing I have noticed is that some American muslim believe that marrying a person from a Islamic country will help them Islamically or is better than marrying American. I guess because they grew up in a so called muslim culture and they speak Arabic it is like we think they are better. Has anyone noticed this or is it just me?

About 10 yrs back here where I live now Detroit everyone told me that marrying a Arabe from ME was unheard of... arabes only married Arabes. This was somewhat true back then, but nowadays not true at all.

And for those who are thinking was... are, sorry to say backwards and ignorant...I think this thinking has nothing to do with Islam, as Islam allows for men to marry any peoples from the "Books" and reward is gained by showing Islam's message (I did not say convert but show) And there are scholars who say more reward is gained when a husband shows a women(wife) Islam and she converts willingly.

And again sorry to offend but mostly Salafis have this thinking. I am not sure, but I think there are no Salafis or W'habis on this forum.

i understand this but what I am asking I guess is if anyone thought that marrying an Arabic person would make them a better muslim. I have a small-long story. My fiance has a cousin and she married an American, I talked to him about a few thigns and his marriage is on the rocks. We where talking and I was like well I am different because I think that he did not know a lot about her. My fiance and I meet through someone that knew us both, unlike him. We talked for a while and we did not get married on the fist trip. He said that he had been to a muslim country and he thought that he understood the culture too. He said that he wanted an Arabic wife because he wanted his children to grow up learning islam and to learn arbic. He is very disappointed becuase she doe snot wear hijib but she sent him a photo in hijib. She does not speak arabic or teach him arabic but the moroccan dialect. He is p-oed as we say because he is not learning from her like he excepted. The things is he does not even pray so it is funny a thing but it is like he married her thinking he would beocme a better muslim. And I do not know that the Qur'an says it is better to marry a believing slave then one of the women from the different religions although it is still permissable but this is a whole other trend. But serously have you seen this?

[Henia 11]

I tired to edit my post but it would not let me. I want to remove the food part.

But, One thing I have noticed is that some American muslim believe that marrying a person from a Islamic country will help them Islamically or is better than marrying American. I guess because they grew up in a so called muslim culture and they speak Arabic it is like we think they are better. Has anyone noticed this or is it just me?

About 10 yrs back here where I live now Detroit everyone told me that marrying a Arabe from ME was unheard of... arabes only married Arabes. This was somewhat true back then, but nowadays not true at all.

And for those who are thinking was... are, sorry to say backwards and ignorant...I think this thinking has nothing to do with Islam, as Islam allows for men to marry any peoples from the "Books" and reward is gained by showing Islam's message (I did not say convert but show) And there are scholars who say more reward is gained when a husband shows a women(wife) Islam and she converts willingly.

And again sorry to offend but mostly Salafis have this thinking. I am not sure, but I think there are no Salafis or W'habis on this forum.

i understand this but what I am asking I guess is if anyone thought that marrying an Arabic person would make them a better muslim. I have a small-long story. My fiance has a cousin and she married an American, I talked to him about a few thigns and his marriage is on the rocks. We where talking and I was like well I am different because I think that he did not know a lot about her. My fiance and I meet through someone that knew us both, unlike him. We talked for a while and we did not get married on the fist trip. He said that he had been to a muslim country and he thought that he understood the culture too. He said that he wanted an Arabic wife because he wanted his children to grow up learning islam and to learn arbic. He is very disappointed becuase she doe snot wear hijib but she sent him a photo in hijib. She does not speak arabic or teach him arabic but the moroccan dialect. He is p-oed as we say because he is not learning from her like he excepted. The things is he does not even pray so it is funny a thing but it is like he married her thinking he would beocme a better muslim. And I do not know that the Qur'an says it is better to marry a believing slave then one of the women from the different religions although it is still permissable but this is a whole other trend. But serously have you seen this?

Sorry to say but some ME/NA-ers just male chauvanistis jerks. Marrying an Arabe women has nothing to do with raising "good Muslim children" or being a better Muslim.... In fact, I think this person has nothing to say since the fact remains he is not even praying. So...... in my opinion... my reply would be the same for the female who (does not also pray) but asks the question "Is not veiling haraam?".... well, I think since Prayer is the #1 pillar in Islam (marrying Arabes or non-Arabes and veiling or not) is not a pillar... that person's first worry should be the praying...not marrying Arabe or not.

For sure, the female should have been honest that she does not veil or speaks Arabic well. But sorry to more born-into-Muslim-family Muslims gain more from marrying non-Arabe Muslim (or non-Muslim) altogether since most times they are renewing their faith, trying to explain questions that their spouses have. In the end, learning more... and also in my experience converts seek out the real Islam, rather then born-into-Muslim-family Muslims who many times are taught culture not religion.

Sure if this man wants to have his children more Arabe then oppose to marrying a occidental (forienger) woman who will show them other cultures ...then OK... but to say he wants to marry Arabe to ensure his children are Muslims... Thats a load of ****.... We all know many Muslims who cannot speak Arabic, even Arabes who cannot...esp in the NA, where the dialect is much different then the classical Arabe and esp from the fancy Quráni Arabe. Converts are more likely (if they are sincere in their religion) to learn Arabe on their own and run an Islamic home... since they are exposed to Arabe culture from childhood (thinking its Islam)

Going back rereading now I see the man is American, not Arabe... but still he is thinking falsely. The man may marry whom he likes, but to think marrying a Arabe woman would make him a better Muslim and better Muslims children is false. Since as I said more culture is taught then Islam to *many* Arabe people. I know from my husband's family and country... the Islam they were practising had voodoo and pagan elements also intermixed. And many of their beliefs and thinking were based on their culture. And I think esp in NA we can see, or least I have seen in NA that religious and cultural practices/thinking vary city to city. What is Islamically exceptable here in city A is not over there in city B.

This shows a weak and confused charachter, I think of this man. Showing he lacks patience (to show a non-Arabe Islam and the language and/or learn it together) and shows lack of true faith. He seems to want the easy way... to do Islam on a drive-by basis.

If I were this man, I would not look for an Arabe wife (exclusively) but I would look all around... An Arabe cannot gaurantee he will get a good wife, as he found outand first and foremost do salaat-al-istakara. The shortest distance and most easiest course to finding any solution to any question is to put your knees to the ground and ask God. A marriage that is blessed by the God is marriage that can stand up to any adversity.