Chickens Come Home to Roost

[Danno 1,228]

No, Danno, wrong again. As usual. I don't have any heartburn over Pat being wrong about Ukraine having seceded from the Russian Federation that it was never part of to begin with. It's not about timing, it's about the claim that Ukraine seceded from the Russian Federation being patently false. You still haven't figured that out, have you? As to whether or not it's meaningless - well, the supposed secession of Ukraine from the Russian Federation was the very basis for Pat's argument. The basis is gone since that secession never occurred. Thus, the entire argument built on that false premise falls. Meaningless? Yes, Pat's argument is meaningless. Here, we agree.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

No, Danno. Secede has a very distinct meaning.

se·cedeintransitive verb \si-ˈsēd\

: to separate from a nation or state and become independent

The fact is that Ukraine never separated from the Russian Federation. Why? Well, because it was never part of it to begin with. Even you should be able to grasp that simple concept.

[Danno 1,228]

No, Danno. Secede has a very distinct meaning.

The fact is that Ukraine never separated from the Russian Federation. Why? Well, because it was never part of it to begin with. Even you should be able to grasp that simple concept.

On 16 July 1990, the new parliament adopted the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine.^[100]The declaration established the principles of the self-determination of the Ukrainian nation, its democracy, political and economic independence, and the priority of Ukrainian law on the Ukrainian territory over Soviet law. A month earlier, a similar declaration was adopted by the parliament of the Russian SFSR. This started a period of confrontation between the central Soviet, and new republican authorities. In August 1991, a conservative faction among the Communist leaders of the Soviet Union attempted a coup to removeMikhail Gorbachev and to restore the Communist party's power. After the attempt failed, on 24 August 1991 the Ukrainian parliament adopted the Act of Independence in which the parliament declared Ukraine as an independent democratic state.^[101]

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

On 16 July 1990, the new parliament adopted the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine.^[100]The declaration established the principles of the self-determination of the Ukrainian nation, its democracy, political and economic independence, and the priority of Ukrainian law on the Ukrainian territory over Soviet law. A month earlier, a similar declaration was adopted by the parliament of the Russian SFSR. This started a period of confrontation between the central Soviet, and new republican authorities. In August 1991, a conservative faction among the Communist leaders of the Soviet Union attempted a coup to removeMikhail Gorbachev and to restore the Communist party's power. After the attempt failed, on 24 August 1991 the Ukrainian parliament adopted the Act of Independence in which the parliament declared Ukraine as an independent democratic state.^[101]

Okay, I was mistaken. You are not actually capable of grasping the simple concept that Ukraine cannot secede from a nation it was never part of. Nothing in the quoted text above says in any way that Ukraine seceded from the Russian Federation. Why? Well, because it didn't. It couldn't. Because it was never a part of the Russian Federation in the first place.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Mr. Big Dog

[Sousuke 1,214]

On 16 July 1990, the new parliament adopted the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine.^[100]The declaration established the principles of the self-determination of the Ukrainian nation, its democracy, political and economic independence, and the priority of Ukrainian law on the Ukrainian territory over Soviet law. A month earlier, a similar declaration was adopted by the parliament of the Russian SFSR. This started a period of confrontation between the central Soviet, and new republican authorities. In August 1991, a conservative faction among the Communist leaders of the Soviet Union attempted a coup to removeMikhail Gorbachev and to restore the Communist party's power. After the attempt failed, on 24 August 1991 the Ukrainian parliament adopted the Act of Independence in which the parliament declared Ukraine as an independent democratic state.^[101]

In US context the above is like California seceding from the United States and then after the fall of the United States, you would claim California tried to secede from Texas or maybe more precise - the district of Columbia.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

In US context the above is like California seceding from the United States and then after the fall of the United States, you would claim California tried to secede from Texas or maybe more precise - the district of Columbia.

Thank you. It's not that hard to understand, is it?

[Dakine10 5,452]

So are we suggesting there is no legal entity in existence now that came out of the USSR? If we want to redress legal issues or have access to declassified documents from the Soviet era, does Russia get to say sorry, we don't know who to ask about that.

The USSR existed because Russia wanted it to exist. It was kept together by force because of Russia, and if had continued, it would have been because Russia wanted to use military force to keep it that way. Yes, the Russian federation existed as part of the USSR but they are also recognized legally and politically as the remnant of that state.

The fact is Ukraine declared independence from the USSR. Whether Pat chose the term Russian Federation by mistake or on purpose doesn't matter. He drew a parallel to a historic scenario. We could discuss the point, but it also doesn't really matter. A powerful nation will use whatever rationale or precedent or history or laws it can to justify taking a weaker territory. And when the powerful nation doesn't have rationale or precedent or history or laws, they will just go with the power.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Putin wins.

[Danno 1,228]

Putin wins.

IN some ways yes and in the End USA looses a lot.

Who do you think will pay for the new arms race?

Already our fixation with Ukraine has cost our tax payers over 5 billion and counting.

How much will our defense spending climb now?

How much in aid will we give to Ukraine

What will we get in return for 10 to twenty billion tacked on our Nat. debt?

A feather in our NATO cap?

and afterwards we are that much more likely to find ourselves in a nuke conflict down the road.

[Dakine10 5,452]

The other way we lose is if our economic sanctions prompt Russia to start accepting payment for oil and gas in other currencies besides the dollar. It's critical to the US economy that the bubble dollar remains as the reserve currency. Putin visits China in May and is expected to close a huge oil deal with China that will pump 38 billion cubic meters annually.

Watch what happens when the worlds biggest oil producer signs a deal with the worlds biggest oil consumer and it doesn't involve petro dollars.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/russias-petro-ruble-challenges-us-dollar-hegemony-china-seeks-development-of-eurasian-trade/5377086

Edited April 21, 2014 by Dakine10

[UncleBeer 244]

Already our fixation with Ukraine has cost our tax payers over 5 billion and counting.

Chump change to a profligate big-spender like our preznit (as long as it's using other peoples' money). He squandered 200 times that amount on the TARP slush fund without batting an eye.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Gotta give it to Putin's propaganda brigade - you're hilarious. Up is down and down is up for them. It's the Russian economy that is taking the biggest hit. The stock market there has taken a severe hit following Putin's land grab. The Ruble is tanking - the Russian central bank had to raise interest rates 1.5% already and buy currency to avoid an outright currency crash. Capital is not only fleeing Russia as fast as it can but fresh capital won't be available to Russia either. Investors don't care so much about the politics of it all but they won't trust their money to Russia which is willfully heading into a home made recession. Russia has already revised its first quarter growth forecast down two percentage points from 2.5% prior to Putin's illegal land grab to just 0.5% after. But somehow Putin is winning and we will suffer economically from this. You guys are hilarious.

Even China doesn't back Russia on this one. Get real folks. Turn off RT, put down the Pravda and get a whiff of the real world.

[Dakine10 5,452]

Gotta give it to Putin's propaganda brigade - you're hilarious. Up is down and down is up for them. It's the Russian economy that is taking the biggest hit. The stock market there has taken a severe hit following Putin's land grab. The Ruble is tanking - the Russian central bank had to raise interest rates 1.5% already and buy currency to avoid an outright currency crash. Capital is not only fleeing Russia as fast as it can but fresh capital won't be available to Russia either. Investors don't care so much about the politics of it all but they won't trust their money to Russia which is willfully heading into a home made recession. Russia has already revised its first quarter growth forecast down two percentage points from 2.5% prior to Putin's illegal land grab to just 0.5% after. But somehow Putin is winning and we will suffer economically from this. You guys are hilarious.

Even China doesn't back Russia on this one. Get real folks. Turn off RT, put down the Pravda and get a whiff of the real world.

Whose talking about investors. It's a deal for gas and oil. Just like the deal your buddies in Germany have, and thats the real reason why Germany's going wuss out on the sanctions.

Anyway I'll give you credit. Your predictions have been consistent, albeit wrong. Crimea is going to stay with Ukraine I believe was your first. Good insight on that one.

Glad you have faith in the dollar. Hope thatr turns out better than your other predictions. We should be more concerned with our 17 trillion in debt than Russia is with there 1/2 trillion. At least they have assets to back theirs.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Whose talking about investors. It's a deal for gas and oil. Just like the deal your buddies in Germany have, and thats the real reason why Germany's going wuss out on the sanctions.

Anyway I'll give you credit. Your predictions have been consistent, albeit wrong. Crimea is going to stay with Ukraine I believe was your first. Good insight on that one.

Glad you have faith in the dollar. Hope thatr turns out better than your other predictions. We should be more concerned with our 17 trillion in debt than Russia is with there 1/2 trillion. At least they have assets to back theirs.

Will you put your money where your mouth is? I am. I take the Dollar over the Ruble every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Are you increasing your Ruble portfolio? The Ruble is a real bargain right now.

You talk like Crimea is settled. You ust wait until Erdogan figures out that historically speaking, it really belongs to Turkey. Along with the rest of what Putin referred to a Novorossiya recently. That would make all of that instant NATO territory.

Personally, I don't give two shits about Crimea. What I do care about is rogue nations like Putin's Russia trampling on international law. That sets dangerous precedents - much like W's illegal war adventure has earlier this century.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Mr. Big Dog

[Dakine10 5,452]

I don't trade in any fiat currency more than I need to. If you want to keep paper and hope it will be worth something when you really need it go ahead. Odd that you're not more familiar with the history of the Weimar republic.

Anyway I don't predict rise in the value of the ruble, I predict a decline in the dollar. The only thing holding it up is it's status as the reserve currency. Once that's gone, it will hardly be worth the paper it's printed on. I think China will eventually make that happen, but it could also happen little by little. We'll see what happens next month.

As far as Crimea, it's a done deal unless you think someone's willing to fight Russia for it. I don't think the US will. Germany can't. NATO won't. Ukraine might but that's irrelevant. The people have already been automatically switched to Russian citizenship (unless they opted out). The banks are trading in rubles. You already need a visa to go there. It's Russia now. The rest is history.

Of note, Ukraine is now backpedaling and offering more regional autonomy to the east. Should have done that in the first place. Maybe the interim government would have appeared more legitimate if they had tried to represent all the people instead of passing discriminatory laws. As they say, denying reality is it's own form of hubris. I'm glad they are finally coming around.