How do you feel about VJ today?

[Fandango 1,439]

Being adult and acting like one can be a long distance apart

Well sure, but each of us can decide how we react to those who upset the apple cart, if ya know what I mean.

And if something is wayyy OTT, it gets reported and dealt with anyways.

[TracyTN 237]

I'm probably gonna get slammed for saying this, but oh well.

It irritates me that new members show up without having read one iota about the visa process and expect to come here and have us answer EVERY single question they have. Take some responsibility for yourself and your fiance/spouse and do your own research - THEN ask here for clarifications on things you don't understand.

Since I know that annoys me, I have to really try to not respond to people like that because I'll just end up being rude. I'm thinking that a lot of others must be annoyed by the same thing - the only difference is they are responding to the posts instead of holding their tongue (which isn't easy to do - trust me).

Maybe that is why it seems like a more abrasive place than it used to be - which may be more a symptom of people coming here wanting to be spoon fed everything instead of finding out for themselves, rather than VJers just being 'rude'.

Of course, that doesn't account for O/T - but that's a different kettle of fish.

Edited January 11, 2007 by TracyTN

[Fandango 1,439]

I'm probably gonna get slammed for saying this, but oh well.

It irritates me that new members show up without having read one iota about the visa process and expect to come here and have us answer EVERY single question they have. Take some responsibility for yourself and your fiance/spouse and do your own research - THEN ask here for clarifications on things you don't understand.

Since I know that annoys me, I have to really try to not respond to people like that because I'll just end up being rude. I'm thinking that a lot of others must be annoyed by the same thing - the only difference is they are responding to the posts instead of holding their tongue (which isn't easy to do - trust me).

Maybe that is why it seems like a more abrasive place than it used to be - which may be more a symptom of people coming here wanting to be spoon fed everything instead of finding out for themselves, rather than VJers just being 'rude'.

Of course, that doesn't account for O/T - but that's a different kettle of fish.

I agree completely. I think it would be cool if a new poster had to read the guides first before being able to post.

[mybackpages 0]

I never needed VJ for support and niceness, but the level of rudeness and self-validation has gotten out of hand.

This site needs more active moderation.

Agreed. There are dynamics on this board that often people miss when they are not aware of the history. And this only aggitates the situation as new people become involved in the postings (with non-visa discussions). Active moderation could spot it and put an end to it before it gets out of hand.

[Alex+R 0]

I'm probably gonna get slammed for saying this, but oh well.

It irritates me that new members show up without having read one iota about the visa process and expect to come here and have us answer EVERY single question they have. Take some responsibility for yourself and your fiance/spouse and do your own research - THEN ask here for clarifications on things you don't understand.

Since I know that annoys me, I have to really try to not respond to people like that because I'll just end up being rude. I'm thinking that a lot of others must be annoyed by the same thing - the only difference is they are responding to the posts instead of holding their tongue (which isn't easy to do - trust me).

Maybe that is why it seems like a more abrasive place than it used to be - which may be more a symptom of people coming here wanting to be spoon fed everything instead of finding out for themselves, rather than VJers just being 'rude'.

Of course, that doesn't account for O/T - but that's a different kettle of fish.

It doesn't bother me so much if someone seems incredibly lost and they are looking for direction and you say "read this or that guide" ---and they do. What bothers me is if you give them a short answer, tell them to read the guides, and they're like "um, can someone else just explain this to me??" I know visas are hard. That's what the guides are for.

[Itsmeitsmeitsree! 0]

VJ has lots of new members now, most of the people I knew when I was a noob are gone.

[TracyTN 237]

I'm probably gonna get slammed for saying this, but oh well.

It irritates me that new members show up without having read one iota about the visa process and expect to come here and have us answer EVERY single question they have. Take some responsibility for yourself and your fiance/spouse and do your own research - THEN ask here for clarifications on things you don't understand.

Since I know that annoys me, I have to really try to not respond to people like that because I'll just end up being rude. I'm thinking that a lot of others must be annoyed by the same thing - the only difference is they are responding to the posts instead of holding their tongue (which isn't easy to do - trust me).

Maybe that is why it seems like a more abrasive place than it used to be - which may be more a symptom of people coming here wanting to be spoon fed everything instead of finding out for themselves, rather than VJers just being 'rude'.

Of course, that doesn't account for O/T - but that's a different kettle of fish.

It doesn't bother me so much if someone seems incredibly lost and they are looking for direction and you say "read this or that guide" ---and they do. What bothers me is if you give them a short answer, tell them to read the guides, and they're like "um, can someone else just explain this to me??" I know visas are hard. That's what the guides are for.

I guess my point is that the 'incredibly lost' have rarely ever done more than glimpsed at the guides. They see acronyms or more than 2 steps and then act like they're not smart enough to figure it out themselves. Perhaps in some instances that is true, but surely not very often.

If they'd actually sit down and take some time to read the guides - or even go into the respective forum and read some of the questions posed by other posters - they'd probably have to keep their questions to a minimum. But its as if they have this need for 'instant gratification', and then can't understand why we don't always want to fulfill that for them.

[Nessa 23]

VJ is as useful an immigration resource as it was in the past.

[Rob and Melinda 0]

In the early days of our Visa Journey this was a haven of rerst and refreshment and a place of encouragement for me. People like Aussie and Jerseygirl filled me with hope as they gave me answers and also encouragement. I hope that all of you who are just starting out can find someone like these two who encoraged me.

Rob and Melinda

[Andy 2]

In almost every sense, VJ is now a totally different entity that it was at the beginning, and that is exactly how it should be.

When first set up, there were no guides or FAQs at all, and the initial objective wasn't really to provide such things because they were available almost everywhere else and if needed, links could be posted to where good information could be found - including, and most importantly for the first members, the K-1 FAQ in it's original location.

The reason VJ came into existence was purely because in every other forum, behavior of members was pretty much what we see here now. People were impatient with each other, lacked the preparedness to listen and help on the poster's terms and were generally insensitive to each other's issues and where answers were provided, they tended to be direct and responsive to the question being asked, not inclined to deeper explanation or broader description of circumstances and procedures that could help in the wider sense.

It also has to be said that processing times were WAY longer that at present and far less understood about the mechanisms of case processing, so people would be stuck at the start with no idea what to do, or have their case in limbo where nothing seemed to happen for many, many months. What was needed, and didn't exist anywhere at the time, was a place people (almost exclusively K-1ers) in the system could go and not so much ask immigration questions as to support each other through the process. An ulterior motive was to help instigate a series of protests against the INS (as it was then called) who apart from via Vermont, seemed unprepared to process I-129F petitions and instead appeared to be heavily favoring TPS and H1-B caseloads.

So 'INS Forums', as it was then known, was a community of members all stuck in the same limbo of inaction of their cases and uncertainties, all wanting to be with their partners and unable to seem to make any progress to bringing that about. It was started by an I-129F petitioner who was increasingly frustrated at the complete inaction of the Texas Service Center and he, Steve, recruited members by posting around many of the other immigration boards of the day inviting K-1 applicants to visit here.

It didn't take long before people began to ask practical immigration questions, though by and large the membership had no background or legal knowledge and at first there was only one member who joined specifically to answer such questions.

After a time, the protests began to succeed and processing picked up pace, and some of the first generation of members (including Steve's) cases began to get processed and approved. The site began to attract wider interest and sprouted more areas of discussion - driven in part by the need of the first group to then have EAD, AP and AOS questions answered after their K-1s, then to have CR/IR cases added because some were able to go that route, then an O/T area for people to chat about non-immigration issues. Then the K-1 FAQ arrived and some of the members began producing the guides, assembled partly from materials already available elsewhere and partly from their own knowledge and experience, so the information resource grew.

As one of the moderators in the early days with Steve, I have to say there was barely any need for moderation at all since the community were very like minded and understood the pressures and frustrations that sometimes led to posts that were bizarre or aggressive or perhaps a little personal. I recall perhaps 3 threads that were locked in the first 2 years, and usually if something got out of hand a little, all that was needed was a post from Steve or myself to nudge it back.

There was a major disruption in 2004 when an immigration attorney began to make threatening posts because he didn't like the information being provided, and when he didn't get his way in having it edited, he drove Steve away completely with the threat to file a law suit - a threat he must have known he couldn't reasonably expect to carry through, but Steve didn't know that and had his life and his new wife to consider so he handed over to Captn Ewok so preventing VJ being closed down completely. VJ itself was in turmoil at that time (not due to Captain Ewok of course, but the way the lawyer had disrupted almost every aspect of the site, and a lot of the original members who were by then handling a large number of wide-ranging immigration questions left.

Once the aggravation died down, the lawyer was banned and actually faced a threat of ethics violation charges in his own state, though at last sight was still active (and disruptive) on at least one other immigration forum. But the good Ewok got VJ back under control and it has now developed into what we see today - an active, thriving discussion of all sorts of immigration topics and a provider of hugely competent background information and dissemination of knowledge and experience that every active member should be proud of contributing toward. It's vastly more informative than VJ was originally, or indeed through any of the early stages of development, but of course as a result it has become pretty much the same as every other immigration site in content, tone and patterns of behavior - ie, it's has 'deteriorated' in comparison to what it was at it's best in every way except it's ability to provide information to those who come here looking to read rather than participate.

It's inevitable that it would, and it's right that it needs to evolve, but the reality is that most people won't read stuff first before they start asking questions, and expecting them to or wanting them to won't make any difference. Nor will people stop having issues out of the mainstream of questions and problems that requires consideration, thought and support, where in many cases they get negative, even attacking replies instead.

As membership has swelled, so the nature of community has changed and attitudes more selfish. O/T has become a vibrant place where the differences of opinion have an inevitable impact elsewhere in the forum, and where bandwidth also impacts functionality and purpose to some extent. Same with Polls, though much less so.

Personally, I believe more active moderation is essential as VJ continues to move forward. Not invasive moderation, just active, where threads that go off topic to the detriment of the OP who needs help can be brought back, or posts that are offensive and personal can be trimmed or removed, though not without warnings. The light touch it gets now is plenty sufficient for most posters, but sadly it's not the majority that dictate the consequence, but the minority who push the boundaries of acceptability, either because they don't understand those boundaries (in which case a warning would usually be sufficient), or who, like the lawyer before, deliberately sets out to damage and inflame (in which case action is needed before content provokes reaction).

VJ is an impressive resource, even in comparison to the bigger sites that have gone before it performing the same mission. I regret that the community spirit focussed on supporting each other through the process has faded and we've become much alike all the others as a result, but even when it started, Steve knew that it would over time. Thus to answer the poll, it is a far better source of published information than it was - the FAQ and guides are excellent. But the discourse is less thorough, less supportive and the information given to posters far less detailed than it had once been. That isn't to be critical of those who post answers though - it's easy to be detail oriented and cover all the bases when you have 10 questions to answer than 100!

But still, personally, I liked the original more. Steve was right, there really was a need for a place people could go to talk over their frustrations, help couples separated by the process as they were themselves have a better day, feel cared for by each other, know that there were others in the same boat - and get help and information tuned to their specific circumstances when they might need it, not of a generic flavor that is far less personal and trustworthy. Overall though, I know I wished that VJ in any of it's incarnations had been around when my own case was going, so the above is not criticism of what it is and how it works!

[notrepetiteashley 0]

It seems like there are more people now than ever before who come to VJ just to build up their own egos by trying to prove they are more "correct" than anyone else. Some attitudes are seriously just so self-righteous and arrogant. I totally agree that's what happens when there are more members...more opportunities for negative attitudes.

That said, I think that sometimes the arguments on the polls and off topic forums get a little ridiculous, but that's what happens when people debate "hot topics" like global warming, illegal immigration, etc. I guess, in my opinion, if you get personally wounded by something someone says on a message board, you should probably not get on message boards. Part of being an adult is knowing how to disagree without getting your feelings hurt and without intentionally hurting the feelings of others. This is a great skill to have, but unfortunately a lot of people don't have it (here at VJ or otherwise.)

My personal favourite of the day: using your education to somehow make you an expert on something that has nothing to do with your degree. Oh, the egos, the egos.

I love all of you, though. Even the a$$holes. I know you're all good people and not just names on a board. And that's okay. I'm certain I've been a jerk on VJ before...but I don't think I have ever hurt anyone's feelings. If so, I apologize. I would like this to be a fun environment...but there are always going to be those who come in just to ridicule others because they feel badly about themselves. Psych 101. Hehe.

[sparkofcreation 0]

I'd just like to say "Hi!" Andy! You were really helpful to me when I first joined. Hope things are going well with you.

I always did wonder what had happened to Steve, I stopped reading when G. got his green card in January 2005 and didn't really start again until we were getting ready for the I-751. I hope things are going well for him too, you guys were really the rock this place was built on.

I think when I joined VJ had exactly critical mass--enough members to be helpful, but not enough that every post was a newbie going OMG I'M TEH LOST WHAT CAN I DO!!!!!111 (and yet despite being new, they feel a compulsion to answer every single question--it grows increasingly harder for me to ignore the people who answer posts on the I-751 and citizenship forums despite having joined last week and only just starting the K-1 process; many times, there are more answers from them than people who actually know what they're talking about. and yes, this is my #1 biggest complaint about the current VJ atmosphere).

In almost every sense, VJ is now a totally different entity that it was at the beginning, and that is exactly how it should be.

When first set up, there were no guides or FAQs at all, and the initial objective wasn't really to provide such things because they were available almost everywhere else and if needed, links could be posted to where good information could be found - including, and most importantly for the first members, the K-1 FAQ in it's original location.

The reason VJ came into existence was purely because in every other forum, behavior of members was pretty much what we see here now. People were impatient with each other, lacked the preparedness to listen and help on the poster's terms and were generally insensitive to each other's issues and where answers were provided, they tended to be direct and responsive to the question being asked, not inclined to deeper explanation or broader description of circumstances and procedures that could help in the wider sense.

It also has to be said that processing times were WAY longer that at present and far less understood about the mechanisms of case processing, so people would be stuck at the start with no idea what to do, or have their case in limbo where nothing seemed to happen for many, many months. What was needed, and didn't exist anywhere at the time, was a place people (almost exclusively K-1ers) in the system could go and not so much ask immigration questions as to support each other through the process. An ulterior motive was to help instigate a series of protests against the INS (as it was then called) who apart from via Vermont, seemed unprepared to process I-129F petitions and instead appeared to be heavily favoring TPS and H1-B caseloads.

So 'INS Forums', as it was then known, was a community of members all stuck in the same limbo of inaction of their cases and uncertainties, all wanting to be with their partners and unable to seem to make any progress to bringing that about. It was started by an I-129F petitioner who was increasingly frustrated at the complete inaction of the Texas Service Center and he, Steve, recruited members by posting around many of the other immigration boards of the day inviting K-1 applicants to visit here.

It didn't take long before people began to ask practical immigration questions, though by and large the membership had no background or legal knowledge and at first there was only one member who joined specifically to answer such questions.

After a time, the protests began to succeed and processing picked up pace, and some of the first generation of members (including Steve's) cases began to get processed and approved. The site began to attract wider interest and sprouted more areas of discussion - driven in part by the need of the first group to then have EAD, AP and AOS questions answered after their K-1s, then to have CR/IR cases added because some were able to go that route, then an O/T area for people to chat about non-immigration issues. Then the K-1 FAQ arrived and some of the members began producing the guides, assembled partly from materials already available elsewhere and partly from their own knowledge and experience, so the information resource grew.

As one of the moderators in the early days with Steve, I have to say there was barely any need for moderation at all since the community were very like minded and understood the pressures and frustrations that sometimes led to posts that were bizarre or aggressive or perhaps a little personal. I recall perhaps 3 threads that were locked in the first 2 years, and usually if something got out of hand a little, all that was needed was a post from Steve or myself to nudge it back.

There was a major disruption in 2004 when an immigration attorney began to make threatening posts because he didn't like the information being provided, and when he didn't get his way in having it edited, he drove Steve away completely with the threat to file a law suit - a threat he must have known he couldn't reasonably expect to carry through, but Steve didn't know that and had his life and his new wife to consider so he handed over to Captn Ewok so preventing VJ being closed down completely. VJ itself was in turmoil at that time (not due to Captain Ewok of course, but the way the lawyer had disrupted almost every aspect of the site, and a lot of the original members who were by then handling a large number of wide-ranging immigration questions left.

Once the aggravation died down, the lawyer was banned and actually faced a threat of ethics violation charges in his own state, though at last sight was still active (and disruptive) on at least one other immigration forum. But the good Ewok got VJ back under control and it has now developed into what we see today - an active, thriving discussion of all sorts of immigration topics and a provider of hugely competent background information and dissemination of knowledge and experience that every active member should be proud of contributing toward. It's vastly more informative than VJ was originally, or indeed through any of the early stages of development, but of course as a result it has become pretty much the same as every other immigration site in content, tone and patterns of behavior - ie, it's has 'deteriorated' in comparison to what it was at it's best in every way except it's ability to provide information to those who come here looking to read rather than participate.

It's inevitable that it would, and it's right that it needs to evolve, but the reality is that most people won't read stuff first before they start asking questions, and expecting them to or wanting them to won't make any difference. Nor will people stop having issues out of the mainstream of questions and problems that requires consideration, thought and support, where in many cases they get negative, even attacking replies instead.

As membership has swelled, so the nature of community has changed and attitudes more selfish. O/T has become a vibrant place where the differences of opinion have an inevitable impact elsewhere in the forum, and where bandwidth also impacts functionality and purpose to some extent. Same with Polls, though much less so.

Personally, I believe more active moderation is essential as VJ continues to move forward. Not invasive moderation, just active, where threads that go off topic to the detriment of the OP who needs help can be brought back, or posts that are offensive and personal can be trimmed or removed, though not without warnings. The light touch it gets now is plenty sufficient for most posters, but sadly it's not the majority that dictate the consequence, but the minority who push the boundaries of acceptability, either because they don't understand those boundaries (in which case a warning would usually be sufficient), or who, like the lawyer before, deliberately sets out to damage and inflame (in which case action is needed before content provokes reaction).

VJ is an impressive resource, even in comparison to the bigger sites that have gone before it performing the same mission. I regret that the community spirit focussed on supporting each other through the process has faded and we've become much alike all the others as a result, but even when it started, Steve knew that it would over time. Thus to answer the poll, it is a far better source of published information than it was - the FAQ and guides are excellent. But the discourse is less thorough, less supportive and the information given to posters far less detailed than it had once been. That isn't to be critical of those who post answers though - it's easy to be detail oriented and cover all the bases when you have 10 questions to answer than 100!

But still, personally, I liked the original more. Steve was right, there really was a need for a place people could go to talk over their frustrations, help couples separated by the process as they were themselves have a better day, feel cared for by each other, know that there were others in the same boat - and get help and information tuned to their specific circumstances when they might need it, not of a generic flavor that is far less personal and trustworthy. Overall though, I know I wished that VJ in any of it's incarnations had been around when my own case was going, so the above is not criticism of what it is and how it works!

[Andy 2]

I'd just like to say "Hi!" Andy! You were really helpful to me when I first joined. Hope things are going well with you.

I always did wonder what had happened to Steve, I stopped reading when G. got his green card in January 2005 and didn't really start again until we were getting ready for the I-751. I hope things are going well for him too, you guys were really the rock this place was built on.

I think when I joined VJ had exactly critical mass--enough members to be helpful, but not enough that every post was a newbie going OMG I'M TEH LOST WHAT CAN I DO!!!!!111 (and yet despite being new, they feel a compulsion to answer every single question--it grows increasingly harder for me to ignore the people who answer posts on the I-751 and citizenship forums despite having joined last week and only just starting the K-1 process; many times, there are more answers from them than people who actually know what they're talking about. and yes, this is my #1 biggest complaint about the current VJ atmosphere).

Hi Bethany!

Thank you for the kind words - I was happy to help in whatever way I could!

I think Steve's genius in setting up the site, and very much on topic given the title of the thread, is that he knew as we all do when we're stuck in the processing queue, that being stuck, immobile, there's a limit to how many questions it's helpful to ask and that there are plenty of places to get information - what was really needed was a place everyone could go and just support and encourage each other through the long and difficult business of waiting for something to happen. There was nothing like it anywhere else, but it was so obvious by the tone and content of the site at the time and as it developed that what people really appreciated was the community of others stuck in the same system, feeling the same frustrations, having the same wishes and needs and being able to talk to each other about how incredibly difficult it was just to be marooned in 'the system'.

I wasn't in that situation having gone through my own case and then being involved in casework, but it was such a refreshing experience logging into VJ at the start and participating in the community here than the to-and-fro of dry question/answer that happened everywhere else.

I think that's why I regret that here it's become the same as everywhere else. Still, it was an inevitable change I think, and it's not as if VJ doesn't fulfill a crucial role for hundreds, and by now, many thousands of people around world. I take a lot of satisfaction in being one of its founding members and sometimes feel a little reminder about the likes of Steve and the history and development of the site are in order! Without him, and the convergence of circumstance at the time, VJ would never have occurred.

Today it does have it's faults and with all due respect to our moderator, it could do with a little tighter control, but I know what you mean about newbies posting answers, often contradictory ones, because as some will remember there was one discussion a while back that was often referred to as 'the evidence thread' where I and a couple of other regular and knowledgeable people discussed the nature of evidence it was good (if not explicitly stated as a requirement) to submit with the I-129F. The thread went into lengthy explanations of processing procedures both in the USCIS and consulates, the rules used by adjudicators, the background to the K-1 law and wove an intricate detail of the issues of submission of a petition that was most likely to get approval without RFE and get through consular processing with minimal fuss while focussing everyone on the relationship issues at the heart of the case. It went of for pages, but was as thorough as any guide to K-1 cases could be. Yet, there were always those who has no experience but their own cases to go on who would pop up and say 'I didn't do any of that and I still got approved', thus encouraging other readers who were perhaps looking for information at the outset of their own cases to follow a path more likely to lead to an RFE etc. Very frustrating!

But then, this is the internet and it happens!

Still, I'm pleased to see your own case with Gareth is proceeding in the commonly sedate fashion. That almost-2 years between AOS approval and I-751 is such a relief after petition, visa and AOS/EAD stuff that it's easy to almost forget the delights that the immigration system still has up it's sleeve - and in fact no small proportion seem to forget the I-751 entirely or get confused by it until they realize that for the most part it's really not much different in documentary demands from a good AOS application. I'll cross my fingers for you both!!!

[Nagishkaw 510]

I like the diversity.

[no name 1]

I never needed VJ for support and niceness, but the level of rudeness and self-validation has gotten out of hand.

I was called rude/intimidating for POSTNG A LINK TO AN ANSWER. #######?

Edited March 26, 2007 by devilette