Crimea votes to secede from Ukraine and join Russia

[Karee 4,191]

What's the difference between this and Quebec wanting to secede from Canada? They've had a couple votes there. The last one failing by about 1%. I'm no Putin fan, but I'm having a hard time understanding what the big deal is.

[LibCampFireClub 635]

Not a big deal at all if the people of Crimea and Ukraine want to join up with Putin. It looks like the voting process over there resembles North Korea.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Not a big deal at all if the people of Crimea and Ukraine want to join up with Putin. It looks like the voting process over there resembles North Korea.

Ding, ding, ding. We got a winner!

[JohnR! 5,495]

What's the difference between this and Quebec wanting to secede from Canada? They've had a couple votes there. The last one failing by about 1%. I'm no Putin fan, but I'm having a hard time understanding what the big deal is.

Right off the bat...

1 - The secession process in Quebec is a result of debates, campaigning and all the accoutrements warranted by a democratic process.

2 - There is no hostile military presence in Quebec running the election. Quebec is not occupied by an invading army.

3 - Quebec's secession process is one of independence from Canada, and not a lame excuse to be annexed by a foreign power.

[Dakine10 5,452]

What's the difference between this and Quebec wanting to secede from Canada? They've had a couple votes there. The last one failing by about 1%. I'm no Putin fan, but I'm having a hard time understanding what the big deal is.

Crimea has their own parliament and constitution. The biggest problem for Crimea is that when the USSR dissolved, Boris Yeltsin, in a drunken stupor (my father in laws description), agreed to give Kiev veto power over the Crimean parliament, against the wishes of both the Crimean people and government. Kiev then proceeded to dissolve the first Crimean parliament, appoint a pro Kiev oligarch to govern Crimea, and cancelled the initial referendum on Crimean self determination. This all took place in the early 90's.

Quebec can not unilaterally secede without the approval of the Canadian government, so when Quebec votes, they are really just voting to petition the government for approval, which they have no chance of getting.

International law makes it hard for any part of a country to secede by itself, otherwise everyone would be doing it. If Crimea can't do it with their history and semi-autonomous status, we'll likely never see it happen anywhere.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The only stupid thing Yeltsin did in his druken stupor was to make the KGB apparatschik Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin acting President.

[Dakine10 5,452]

The only stupid thing Yeltsin did in his druken stupor was to make the KGB apparatschik Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin acting President.

Your insistence on being right all the time is borderline pathological Big Dog. Now you pretend to know more about these events than the people who lived through it. Please. Stick to posting the cartoons.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Your insistence on being right all the time is borderline pathological Big Dog. Now you pretend to know more about these events than the people who lived through it. Please. Stick to posting the cartoons.

What's pathological is your parroting of Kremlin propaganda. Maybe you should post cartoons?

ETA: I am in fact right about Yeltsin having made KGB apparatschik Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin acting President.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Mr. Big Dog

[SMR 368]

Not a big deal at all if the people of Crimea and Ukraine want to join up with Putin. It looks like the voting process over there resembles North Korea.

When less than 1% of the population of Ukraine takes to the streets and drives out a democratically elected government under threat of violence, the American media and government tells us that it is democracy at work. When 95% of a region votes to become part of Russia because it disagrees with the government of the 1% in Kiev, that's clearly the illegal intervention of a totalitarian regime.

The American definition of democracy is increasingly tending toward just being when people agree with us. Anytime a government disagrees with the US, it's totalitarianism, and any elections that may have taken place were either coerced or outright faked. Anytime a government agrees with the US, it's clearly democracy at work, even if that government is simply an autocrat and tank barrels are the only thing making sure that the people agree with us.

Putin has won this interaction by a mile and it's not because he isn't an autocratic megalomaniac. He is. It's because in contrast to the US position his argument is intellectually consistent. Two years ago as the presidential elections in Russia loomed, Putin was on the verge on not getting 50% of the vote to avoid a runoff. He didn't carry a majority of the vote in Moscow. Now he's a strong as he has ever been because the US decided to push an inconsistent position with neither the moral capital nor the physical might to back it up.

[Dakine10 5,452]

What's pathological is your parroting of Kremlin propaganda. Maybe you should post cartoons?

ETA: I am in fact right about Yeltsin having made KGB apparatschik Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin acting President.

I'm not parroting Kremlin anything. My wife and family are Crimean. Through them, I know a lot of people, and all of them want to join Russia. They may officially join this week, but in their hearts they never left. They always feel that was taken away from them when the USSR dissolved. The last time I was there was almost 10 years ago and even back then if I would say "Ukraine is a beautiful country" people would say "you're not in Ukraine". Those are the facts. What you are posting is opinion, and you have already admitted your anti Russian bias, so your opinion should be taken that way.

Yes you are right about Yeltsin. So what? The question was about the difference between Quebec and Crimea secession. It appears you had nothing to add and yet felt compelled to add something anyway. Strange.

[Dakine10 5,452]

When less than 1% of the population of Ukraine takes to the streets and drives out a democratically elected government under threat of violence, the American media and government tells us that it is democracy at work. When 95% of a region votes to become part of Russia because it disagrees with the government of the 1% in Kiev, that's clearly the illegal intervention of a totalitarian regime.

The American definition of democracy is increasingly tending toward just being when people agree with us. Anytime a government disagrees with the US, it's totalitarianism, and any elections that may have taken place were either coerced or outright faked. Anytime a government agrees with the US, it's clearly democracy at work, even if that government is simply an autocrat and tank barrels are the only thing making sure that the people agree with us.

Putin has won this interaction by a mile and it's not because he isn't an autocratic megalomaniac. He is. It's because in contrast to the US position his argument is intellectually consistent. Two years ago as the presidential elections in Russia loomed, Putin was on the verge on not getting 50% of the vote to avoid a runoff. He didn't carry a majority of the vote in Moscow. Now he's a strong as he has ever been because the US decided to push an inconsistent position with neither the moral capital nor the physical might to back it up.

Ukraine's constitution does not even legally allow the current situation. Yushchenko didn't resign, he wasn't voted out, and he wasn't impeached. Those are the only ways Ukraine allows a president to be removed from office. The first order of business was to get rid of the high court judges, effectively preventing any legal challenge. The farce will continue.

I'm happy the people of Crimea will get what they wanted but the people of Ukraine are the one's getting cheated here. Yushchenko would not have won in an election and given the dynamics, there could easily have been a swing to a legitimately elected pro-west government if they had waited a few months. Now the legitimacy of everything that happens in the region will be in question.

[Asia 2,498]

Ukraine's constitution does not even legally allow the current situation. Yushchenko didn't resign, he wasn't voted out, and he wasn't impeached.

Yeah, he simply run away.

[Dakine10 5,452]

Yeah, he simply run away.

Yes, being pursued by gunmen.

Now a supreme court could have made a ruling on whether this was a de facto resignation or not. Oops - no judges. What to do?

This was planned from the beginning. For the interim government to work, they made necessary, but unconstitutional decisions.

[Asia 2,498]

Yes, being pursued by gunmen.

Really?

And they just let him pack up paintings, some other valuables and a dog in the middle of the night? Just like that?

[Harpa Timsah 13,258]

I am continually surprised on VJ how people will take up the causes and parrot the talking points of the politicians in the foreign spouse's country.

On the one hand, it's nice that people care about the politics of a country they never lived in, but on the other hand... there are people on here who are American but pretend to be the foreign person to rally for a cause.