Dealing with a previous marriage in a high fraud country.

[Elchelle 5]

My fiancé's K1 interview has not been scheduled, but we should be contacted any day now. I am a nervous wreck about my fiancé being interviewed again in Cairo. He was denied a Visitor's Visa last March to come see me, and he said the place was "atrocious". He's very shy and quiet. I think they rattled him sorely. The Cairo Embassy employees are apparently notorious for being difficult, rude and downright mean.

Reading posts on this site makes me panic even more. I read a lot about previous marriages being "red flags" in high fraud countries like Egypt. My fiancé was married when we started our romantic relationship. Here's the story: I'm an archaeologist, and I met my fiancé on an archaeological dig in 2006. We became friends, and there were definitely sparks between us, but he lives in rural Southern Egypt and had no access to the Internet after I left. He waited for me to return in 2007, even though there was no romance yet, but I was in a horrible car accident, and could not return again until January 2013. By that time, he was married and had kids, but we knew the second we saw each other again that nothing between us had changed, and unspoken feelings from years before became spoken and declared. We knew we had to go on with the relationship, which was possible because in 2013 he had access to the Internet, a Facebook account, Skype, email etc., unlike years before. We had both previously tried to find each other on Facebook, to no avail.

My main is concern is that he was married when we met the second time and started our relationship. He was in what he calls a "traditional" marriage. In America, we would call them arranged marriages. They are very common in rural Southern Egypt. There was no love between the two, to say the least, and they barely knew each other before they got married. At age 30, he was an old bachelor, and his mother and his brother and the village patriarch had been hounding him to marry for years. Finally he gave in and said fine. They were never happy, and had split up several times only to unite again to please their families. They are in a clan/family/ duty pressure oriented society. They live in a small village where everybody knows everybody, and everybody is related to everybody. Also, in Egypt when a man divorces a woman, he really gets financially screwed. He must financially support her until their children are out of the house, or she marries again, and he must pay her a lump sum of money upfront that is the size of the Dowery (in my fiancé's case, this was equal to more than one year of his salary).

Despite the very difficult time he had with his family, and with raising the money, they divorced in June, after he had enough time to save money for the divorce. He sacrificed a lot, and he has endured an enormous amount of grief from his family, the Kabir (patriarch, his uncle) and his village to be with me.

The truth is, he asked me to move to Egypt, but I can't imagine living there. I love the country and the people, but I am a successful professor. I have tenure, which took years, and Egypt is unstable economically and politically. I am also an independent, self-made woman, an I without starting a debate, I will just say that I am very grateful to be a woman in America.

So...he agreed to move here and visit his children once or twice a year. We have spoken about bringing them to live here with us when they are older.

We filed our first paperwork for a K1 visa a few days after he divorced his ex-wife. This may be what they call a "red flag". Will he be grilled about it? How do we prove in that our relationship is legitimate, and he was in a loveless, arranged marriage? Surely, the COs know Egypt is a country where one man can marry up to three women at one time. And though it is certainly not ideal, married people do fall in love with other people, do leave their spouses, and do marry again. It happens all the time everywhere in the world.

To make matters worse, when we filed for the visitors visa, he was still married, so I put our relationship status as "friend." I hope they do not question this too.

I hired an attorney, whom I have found less than helpful. She said we sent a "complete file" with packet one. After reading on this site, I feel we needed much more supporting evidence of a valid relationship. I feel I did not front laid nearly enough. We sent photos, copies of all of my plane tickets from visits, copies of my passports with entry and exit dates for Egypt, intents to marry, and a marriage contract my fiancé had me sign that is not legal, but is a spiritual contract in Islam.

I am thinking of sending an additional packet via DHL to the embassy that also includes snapshots of Facebook conversations from the last year and a half, emails exchanged between my fiancé and my mother, and affidavits of a legitimate relationship signed by me, my mother, my stepfather, and anyone else who will vouch for us.

I don't want to send it with my fiancé to take to his interview because I read on this site that often the COs don't even look at the evidence brought by the beneficiary.

I am looking for any advice, tips, suggestions for the interview, and what we can do before the interview, to avoid a denial based on his previous marriage in a high fraud country.

I know this is long, but I wanted everyone to have all of the details. Thank you so much in advance for any advice and support!

Edited March 10, 2014 by Elchelle

[Cathi 5,742]

Muslim men can marry up to 4 wives, not 3.

You have a long road ahead of you, your case has some very big red flags, the biggest being his children and why he would leave them, the second being he was had a traditional marriage and divorced her to be with you. There have been many cases where men from MENA countries have divorced their wives to marry us citizens and as soon as they hit the day after the 5 year rule, they divorce their us wife and remarry the first wife back home and brings her and the kids legally to the US. I'm not saying this is the case with you, but the consulate is very aware of this type of fraud, it will be an uphill battle trying to,prove that won't happen. Do you have other red flags? Big age difference, different religion, big difference in educational background? The more info you give us the more advice we can give.

[Elchelle 5]

In Egypt, I believe a man can only be legally married three women, but it doesn't really matter. The fact is he can marry more than one at a time, so it does not seem odd that he might begin a relationship with another woman while married.

So, you think the traditional marriage is another red flag? He and I thought it was less of a red flag because it was traditional, they were miserable, and there was no love between them.

He said many men leave their children to go work in other countries and come back and visit them. I know this happens because I've seen it. His cousin move to Jordan to work for three years and never saw his children. His father worked on the Sinai Peninsula most of the year, and he only saw his father one month out of the year throughout his childhood.

I am 40, and he is 37, so the age difference is only three years. He's Muslim, obviously, and I am not generally religious. I've never been married. We post have post graduate degrees, and we both work in education.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Elchelle

[Tina and Johan 206]

a marriage contract my fiancé had me sign that is not legal, but is a spiritual contract in Islam.

Would this fall under the "too married" for a K1 visa, but "not married enough" for a spousal visa? I have limited experience with red flags, etc, but I have seen some people who've had this problem where the embassy considered them "too married" and denied the visa because it was the wrong type. I imagine someone with that experience will chime in.

On the other hand, if he was legally divorced and free to marry (no time constraints post-divorce), then I wouldn't think that his being married before would be a problem. Lots of us have been married before. Good luck! I'm anxious to know how it goes, as would people filing with Egyptian fiance's, I'm sure.

Tina

[Thane 8]

You mentioned sending an additional packet of items to the embassy, I hope this would be with your fiancee and not directly to the embassy. The information would help him during the interview as they are attempting to prove a legitimate relationship. I think as long as things are thoroughly laid out and described as you described here (in more detail), you should be fine. I don't think a previous marriage will have too much of an effect on them believing that this is fraud, especially given the circumstances of it being a traditional arranged marriage.

I wish both you and your fiancé good luck!

Edited March 10, 2014 by Thane

[shahara2013 16]

Are we sure katab al kitab (islamic marriage / the thing a lot of arabs sign when they get engaged to make everything halal (permissible) is not considered a legal marriage in egypt? It sounds like you might be married on paper. In other arab countries this is legal marriage. On a side note-Muslim men can marry 4 women. We wish you luck and want the best for you.

[Elchelle 5]

Are we sure katab al kitab (islamic marriage / the thing a lot of arabs sign when they get engaged to make everything halal (permissible) is not considered a legal marriage in egypt? It sounds like you might be married on paper. In other arab countries this is legal marriage. On a side note-Muslim men can marry 4 women. We wish you luck and want the best for you.

Yes, I understand Muslim men can marry 4 women, but for some reason in Egypt they are limited to 3.

I have been told by my fiance and by many others that this type of marriage contract is not legal in Egypt. We have tried to use one hotel room in Egypt several times (which is illegal for unmarried couples), showed this contract, and we were told it is not legal, so we had to pay for TWO hotel rooms.

[shahara2013 16]

Each arab country/culture has their own laws/pecularities - Egypt is not my forte so perhaps you are right. Good luck with your interview!

[Elchelle 5]

Each arab country/culture has their own laws/pecularities - Egypt is not my forte so perhaps you are right. Good luck with your interview!

Thank you!!

And thank yout to everyone who has replied, thus far!

Edited March 10, 2014 by Elchelle

[Cathi 5,742]

Yes, I understand Muslim men can marry 4 women, but for some reason in Egypt they are limited to 3.

I have been told by my fiance and by many others that this type of marriage contract is not legal in Egypt. We have tried to use one hotel room in Egypt several times (which is illegal for unmarried couples), showed this contract, and we were told it is not legal, so we had to pay for TWO hotel rooms.

it is legal read this

Please note that the nonimmigrant fiancé(e) (K-1) visa is created to enable you to travel to the United States in order to marry your U.S. citizen fiancé(e) in the United States within 90 days from your arrival date to the United States. Both the U.S. citizen and the K-1 visa applicant must have been legally free to marry at the time the petition was filed and must have remained so thereafter (during the visa interview). By signing a marriage contract (Katib Al Kitab), you are considered to be legally and officially married under both Egyptian and U.S. law, regardless of consummation of marriage or the holding of a wedding party.

You are legally married

Edited March 10, 2014 by mimolicious

[shahara2013 16]

Maybe she signed an orfi marriage contract?

[shahara2013 16]

Maybe she signed an orfi marriage contract?

[Elchelle 5]

Maybe she signed an orfi marriage contract?

Maybe? I'll ask my fiance tomorrow. I do know that he told me, point blank, this is not a "legal marriage" in Egypt, and several others have told me the same.

This is the best I could translate it:

Customary marriage contract

That on /(date) approved marriage was between:

Name of Husband / _________________________________

Card No: ____________________________

The name of the wife / ___________________________________

and residing in

State / State / City / Street /________________________________________

Passport number :_______________________________________________

This was the contract by mutual consent, and acceptance in terms of this contract will be for Wife right to demand their husbands all the legitimate rights.

This marriage is valid once signed by the parties, and the husband should pay the wife a dowry and agreed upon the Parties until a formal contract.

Witnesses 1- ____________________________________

Card No.__________________________________________

Witness 2 -_____________________________

Card No__________________________________

[Elchelle 5]

it is legal read this

Please note that the nonimmigrant fiancé(e) (K-1) visa is created to enable you to travel to the United States in order to marry your U.S. citizen fiancé(e) in the United States within 90 days from your arrival date to the United States. Both the U.S. citizen and the K-1 visa applicant must have been legally free to marry at the time the petition was filed and must have remained so thereafter (during the visa interview). By signing a marriage contract (Katib Al Kitab), you are considered to be legally and officially married under both Egyptian and U.S. law, regardless of consummation of marriage or the holding of a wedding party.

You are legally married

Will you please provide a link? I cannot find on the Embassy website.

[shahara2013 16]

Yeah looks like an orfi marriage contract. You can google that to learn more. If it is an orfi contract than from what I have heard it is not legally binding in Egypt.

http://orfi-wives-egypt.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-is-orfi-marriage.html?m=1

I would spend some time preparing for your intercultural marriage/marriage to an arab muslim by reading books and seeking the wisdom of others you can sit down with face to face. There are a lot of great things to think through. Can't speak to your questions too much but do encourage you to seek counsel.