Honor Killings

[jordanianprincess 0]

To me it seems like a paradox. I think of the family unit as being so much more valued in the MENA, yet at the same time it is acceptable to murder one's kin. Can anyone explain this?

They carry out the killing because the family unit is so valued. In their minds, one rotton apple spoils the whole lot. The most important thing to arabs is their honor. They carry out the killings to protect thier families honor, believe it or not. Most people feel that honor killings are deserved and the people that carry them out are seen as heros in their family for protecting the families honor.

[Jenn! 918]

To me it seems like a paradox. I think of the family unit as being so much more valued in the MENA, yet at the same time it is acceptable to murder one's kin. Can anyone explain this?

Doesn't it have something to do with saving the family's reputation? A girl who had sex outside of marriage is a disgrace to the family, right?

I suppose that makes sense. I just can't understand valuing saving face over life. It's really just beyond me.

[Jenn! 918]

Most people feel that honor killings are deserved and the people that carry them out are seen as heros in their family for protecting the families honor.

Just out of curiosity, do you know if they go as far as to celebrate after an honor killing?

Edited January 4, 2007 by jenn3539

[jordanianprincess 0]

Most people feel that honor killings are deserved and the people that carry them out are seen as heros in their family for protecting the families honor.

Just out of curiosity, do you know if they go as far as to celebrate after an honor killing?

The men of the family do celebrate as a way of justifying their sick actions. The woman of the family are usually not allowed to morn. There are usually no funeral services either. The name of the victim is not to ever be mentioned again, like they are erasing their existence.

[mybackpages 0]

For most of us honor killings seem so far removed from anything we can understand, but I wonder if its really closer to home than we understand. I keep thinking of the violence against women in the US. Often a man who batters his wife- its about control, dominance - remember the myth that was so commonly beleived for years in this country- "it's for her own good."

[jordanianprincess 0]

For most of us honor killings seem so far removed from anything we can understand, but I wonder if its really closer to home than we understand. I keep thinking of the violence against women in the US. Often a man who batters his wife- its about control, dominance - remember the myth that was so commonly beleived for years in this country- "it's for her own good."

The only difference is he is not seen as a hero and he is punished for the crime. Most honor killings in MENA are excusable. All a man has to do is tell the religious courts that the girl shamed her families honor. If they serve any jail time at all, its is very very little.

[mybackpages 0]

For most of us honor killings seem so far removed from anything we can understand, but I wonder if its really closer to home than we understand. I keep thinking of the violence against women in the US. Often a man who batters his wife- its about control, dominance - remember the myth that was so commonly beleived for years in this country- "it's for her own good."

The only difference is he is not seen as a hero and he is punished for the crime. Most honor killings in MENA are excusable. All a man has to do is tell the religious courts that the girl shamed her families honor. If they serve any jail time at all, its is very very little.

Today yes, but it was not that long ago that husbands who battered their wives were seen as heroes. "a good wife is never battered" "the battered wife asked for it" "the battered wife likes it" Women were seen as out of control and husbands were expected to control them. I remember Sean Connery telling Barbara Walters once that sometimes the situation merits a woman being slapped.

[Jenn! 918]

I know that honor killings are not restricted to muslims, but I think that's the majority, right? How do people justify the fact that they are forbidden in Islam? And how is it that the government, particularly in countries with Sharia law, lets these people off?

[jordanianprincess 0]

I know that honor killings are not restricted to muslims, but I think that's the majority, right? How do people justify the fact that they are forbidden in Islam? And how is it that the government, particularly in countries with Sharia law, lets these people off?

Honor killings are practiced by Christians and Muslims. Neither religion condones it, but religious courts uphold it. This custom is as old as Ancient Babylon. The only pattern I see with it is its common in places where woman have little or no rights. Womens rights is a fairly new thing. As MBP said, it happened in our own backyard as well until recent years.

Many groups and orginazations have been working hard to outlaw this custom with liittle or no progress for the very same questios you are asking. There is no justification to any of it in my opinion.

Edited January 4, 2007 by jordanianprincess

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I would venture to guess that at least 90% of men from the MENA would agree with idea of honor killings. At least the ones who haven't lived in the West for long or at all.

Well I don't know about 90%. I do think the number is high but maybe not that high. I wonder how many of them believe in the idea of honor killings but would not be able to actually carry one out?

My fiance would be devastated, crushed, and heartbroken if his daughter has done such a thing. He would never have the heart to kill her, but he would disown her and maybe after sometime, he might forgive her.

My family is Christian as most of you know and my cousin who was born and raised and in the US met an arabic girl in High School, they liked each and fell in love. They had pre-marital sex and by the age of 17 she got pregnant. To complicate matters even more, she is Muslim. Her family disowned her. She is happily married now to my cousin, has 2 girls and has not spoken to her family in 6 years. Her mother tries to speak to her secretly sometimes without her father knowing.

What saved her is the fact that she lives here in the US, has she been in the Middle East, she most likely would have been killed.

The media loves to create the impression that only Muslims do this, but it happens in Christian and Jewish families too.

To me it seems like a paradox. I think of the family unit as being so much more valued in the MENA, yet at the same time it is acceptable to murder one's kin. Can anyone explain this?

It's about control of reproduction. Women are property and commodities by which to create other men for men. If their male guardians can't control them, they are viewed as weak and ineffective. Even the Prophet was ridiculed for not controling his wives in the traditional manner. I'm afraid that principles of gender equality have never caught on in the ME, Africa and Asia.

Edited January 4, 2007 by szsz

[jordanianprincess 0]

I would venture to guess that at least 90% of men from the MENA would agree with idea of honor killings. At least the ones who haven't lived in the West for long or at all.

Well I don't know about 90%. I do think the number is high but maybe not that high. I wonder how many of them believe in the idea of honor killings but would not be able to actually carry one out?

My fiance would be devastated, crushed, and heartbroken if his daughter has done such a thing. He would never have the heart to kill her, but he would disown her and maybe after sometime, he might forgive her.

My family is Christian as most of you know and my cousin who was born and raised and in the US met an arabic girl in High School, they liked each and fell in love. They had pre-marital sex and by the age of 17 she got pregnant. To complicate matters even more, she is Muslim. Her family disowned her. She is happily married now to my cousin, has 2 girls and has not spoken to her family in 6 years. Her mother tries to speak to her secretly sometimes without her father knowing.

What saved her is the fact that she lives here in the US, has she been in the Middle East, she most likely would have been killed.

The media loves to create the impression that only Muslims do this, but it happens in Christian and Jewish families too.

I fully agree with you. I would have most likely been killed by now if I was living in Jordan. The sad thing is, even if your father and brothers don't believe in honor killings and won't carry one out, if other family members know (uncles, cousins, etc) they can carry it out instead. Its all about protecting the family name. I don't think my father or brother would have ever been able to do this but I'm not so sure that one of my uncles or cousins would have an issue with it.

Edited January 4, 2007 by jordanianprincess

[sarah and hicham 3]

I would venture to guess that at least 90% of men from the MENA would agree with idea of honor killings. At least the ones who haven't lived in the West for long or at all.

Well I don't know about 90%. I do think the number is high but maybe not that high. I wonder how many of them believe in the idea of honor killings but would not be able to actually carry one out?

My fiance would be devastated, crushed, and heartbroken if his daughter has done such a thing. He would never have the heart to kill her, but he would disown her and maybe after sometime, he might forgive her.

My family is Christian as most of you know and my cousin who was born and raised and in the US met an arabic girl in High School, they liked each and fell in love. They had pre-marital sex and by the age of 17 she got pregnant. To complicate matters even more, she is Muslim. Her family disowned her. She is happily married now to my cousin, has 2 girls and has not spoken to her family in 6 years. Her mother tries to speak to her secretly sometimes without her father knowing.

What saved her is the fact that she lives here in the US, has she been in the Middle East, she most likely would have been killed.

The media loves to create the impression that only Muslims do this, but it happens in Christian and Jewish families too.

I fully agree with you. I would have most likely been killed by now if I was living in Jordan. The sad thing is, even if your father and brothers don't believe in honor killings and won't carry one out, if other family members know (uncles, cousins, etc) they can carry it out instead. Its all about protecting the family name. I don't think my father or brother would have ever been able to do this but I'm not so sure that one of my uncles or cousins would have an issue with it.

you wild girl!

[Jenn! 918]

This is straight from Wikipedia, but I thought the list of countries was interesting:

According to the report of the Special Rapporteur submitted to the 58th session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (2002) concerning cultural practices in the family that reflect violence against women (E/CN.4/2002/83):

The Special Rapporteur indicated that there had been contradictory decisions with regard to the honor defense in Brazil, and that legislative provisions allowing for partial or complete defence in that context could be found in the penal codes of Argentina, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Peru, Syria, Venezuela and the Palestinian National Authority.[19]

Countries where the law can be interpreted to allow men to kill female relatives in a premeditated effort as well as for crimes of passions, in flagrante delicto in the act of committing adultery, include:

Jordan: Part of article 340 of the Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty." [6] This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament.[20]

Countries that allow men to kill female relatives in flagrante delicto (but without premeditation) include:

Syria: Article 548 states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants [sic], descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."

Countries that allow husbands to kill only their wives in flagrante delicto (based upon the Napoleonic code) include:

Morocco: Article 418 of the Penal Code states "Murder, injury and beating are excusable if they are committed by a husband on his wife as well as the accomplice at the moment in which he surprises them in the act of adultery."

Haiti: Article 269 of the Penal Code states that "in the case of adultery as provided for in Article 284, the murder by a husband of his wife and/or her partner, immediately upon discovering them in flagrante delicto in the conjugal abode, is to be pardoned."

Turkey: In Turkey, persons found guilty of this crime are sentenced to life in prison.[21]

In two Latin American countries, similar laws were struck down over the past two decades: according to human rights lawyer Julie Mertus "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery."[22]

Countries where honor killing is not legal but is frequently in practice include:

Pakistan: Honor killings are known as Karo Kari (Urdu: کاروکاری ). The practice is supposed to be prosecuted under ordinary murder, but in practice police and prosecutors often ignore it.[23] Often a man must simply claim the killing was for his honor and he will go free. Nilofer Bakhtiar, advisor to Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, stated that in 2003, as many as 1,261 women were murdered in honor killings.[24] On December 08, 2004, under international and domestic pressure, Pakistan enacted a law that made honor killings punishable by a prison term of seven years, or by the death penalty in the most extreme cases. Women's rights organizations were, however, wary of this law as it stops short of outlawing the practice of allowing killers to buy their freedom by paying compensation to the victim's relatives. Women's rights groups claimed that in most cases it is the victim's immediate relatives who are the killers, so inherently the new law is just eyewash. It did not alter the provisions whereby the accused could negotiate pardon with the victim's family under the so-called Islamic provisions. In March 2005 the Pakistani government allied with Islamists to reject a bill which sought to strengthen the law against the practice of "honor killing". The parliament rejected the bill by a majority vote, declaring it to be un-Islamic.[25] However, the bill was brought up again, and in November 2006, it passed.[26]

[jordanianprincess 0]

Can you imagine, a girl being raped, then having to spend her life in prison to protect herself? This is another thing about honor killings. A girl can be killed if she is raped! Some countries have made this illegal and will put the girl in prison for the rest of her life to protect her from her family.

[doodlebug 3]

He wouldn't kill her but he would definitely push for her to move to Egypt.

on a side note he would totally kill his son if he were gay and actually sleeping with men. i know that wasn't part of the survey but thought i'd add a bit more flavor to it. :energetic: