Honor Killings

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

Stay out of Brazil, Charlie!

i'm not idle

I hate to differ with you, being that you are Brazilian, but it is cultural; part of the machoism that permeates all of Latin America. It's influence as a man's right has dissipated over the last two decades, but it was not only the resort of sick people. Such men were considered by their neighbors to be correct in what they did, and that thought still lingers in the judicial system.

I am talking about a judicial system that condemns "Idleness" as a crime.

it is?

Yes it is, and so is begging.

Article 59 on the "Lei das Contravenções Penais" which is the "book of lesser crimes"

wow i saw quite a few of them in rio. ask nessa about the cat woman

[peezey 0]

Well, with all dues respect, in your situation, an agnostic Muslim married to an atheist, one may see many exceptions.

Right, I can totally feel the respect in your statement.

I am not speaking of my own perspective, you spoke in absolutes, and there is just no such thing, anywhere.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

Well, with all dues respect, in your situation, an agnostic Muslim married to an atheist, one may see many exceptions.

Right, I can totally feel the respect in your statement.

I am not speaking of my own perspective, you spoke in absolutes, and there is just no such thing, anywhere.

why did you bypass moody's question and go straight to szsz's?

[Reynaldo 0]

wow i saw quite a few of them in rio. ask nessa about the cat woman

Cat woman?

Anyway people, don't take Brazilian laws seriously, because we sure don't...

[Bosco 1]

I think for me the shocking thing about this thread remans that there are women who choose to marry men who hold such different views on basic values. It's easy to dismiss views on honor killings because the likelyhood that this will ever directly apply to them is minimum. BUT Bi-national marriages are hard enough with the added friction of holding such different core beliefs.

In the US a marriage is the union of two individuals, but for much of the rest of the world a marriage is the union of two families. I can never understand joining a family through marriage without knowing that at the basic core you belong in this family. I could never marry a man who held moral views so different from mine. If a SO was raised to hold certain racists ideas, how could I justify my willingness to build a family with him by dismissing these beliefs as just how he was raised. I wont accept any expression of violence or intolerance so why would I bring it into my home?

Let's say a woman, born and raised in the US, travels half way across the world to a small village in Middle Eastern Country. For now lets just put the honor killings issue aside, do you think they will have the same views on many things? I am not talking about you but in general, a man raised in a small village or city, who has never been outside of his country will most likely not accept 50% of the things we do here because its not normal for them. Do you think his willingness to accept things that are new to him after 10 years of being exposed to it would change?

Let's take another it in another direction. For us here in the US, most of us don't believe in color lines and racism. For the most part we believe everyone is equal and that you should date and marry who you love with no boundries. Now ask these same set of men if they are ok with their daughter dating or marrying a Black, Mexican, or Chinese man. Most of them will say no. Interracial marriage is normal for them and without saying we all know this is a double standard since there is no problem with a man doing it.

JP,

This is something you and I have talked about one-on-one, and I don't understand why a person would marry someone with views so different than theirs. I am not speaking broadly about all Arab/American relationships, because you can find a non-traditional thinking Arab and a non-traditional thinking American that meet somewhere in the middle - it isn't impossible. However, I think it is going to take two exceptional people, lots of patience and hard work.

I anticipate my husband may very well get more "traditional" as the years go on, and this is something I thought about and decided I would be comfortable with. My family has experience in the Middle East, so when we were getting serious about marriage, they as well as their friends brought up potential issues, and they put me in touch with people who had been in long-term (some as long as 50+ years) marriages between Arab men/American women to discuss potential issues/expectations.

What I find rather disturbing is people who want/anticipate their husband "breaking free" of their ways as they become more Americanized, and seeing this as some victory.

Rebecca

[jordanianprincess 0]

Well, with all dues respect, in your situation, an agnostic Muslim married to an atheist, one may see many exceptions.

Right, I can totally feel the respect in your statement.

I am not speaking of my own perspective, you spoke in absolutes, and there is just no such thing, anywhere.

SZSZ is right, shaming is almost always done in the Middle East and by Middle Eastern families in one form or another regardless of the subject.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

wow i saw quite a few of them in rio. ask nessa about the cat woman

Cat woman?

Anyway people, don't take Brazilian laws seriously, because we sure don't...

yeah the cat woman. about a block off of copacabana beach. some old woman surrounded by cats and a tent she'd made (and lived in) of plastic bags

[peezey 0]

I'm curious, peezey, what is your husband's take on honor killings or punishment for adultery regarding women in his family? Does he not find it dishonorable for his wife, child, sister, or mother to commit adultery? Even in the states it's considered shameful to a point.

answer to #1, abhorrent re: murder or punishment

answer to #2, no, it's none of his business, in his opinion

[ya falaha! 0]

Yes, perhaps not honor killings but perhaps something lesser. I guess my point is...would her (or others) husband just stand by and do nothing if the women in his family were commiting adultery? I've never met a MENA person whether it be man or woman who didn't find adultery shameful and I can't imagine Moroccans being that much different.

*edit* never mind...question was answered..thanks.

I'm curious, peezey, what is your husband's take on honor killings or punishment for adultery regarding women in his family? Does he not find it dishonorable for his wife, child, sister, or mother to commit adultery? Even in the states it's considered shameful to a point.

Actually I don't think this is a problem in his family given the fact of where they are from. It does happen in Morocco but its not common in larger cities.

Edited January 5, 2007 by moody

[mybackpages 0]

I think for me the shocking thing about this thread remans that there are women who choose to marry men who hold such different views on basic values. It's easy to dismiss views on honor killings because the likelyhood that this will ever directly apply to them is minimum. BUT Bi-national marriages are hard enough with the added friction of holding such different core beliefs.

In the US a marriage is the union of two individuals, but for much of the rest of the world a marriage is the union of two families. I can never understand joining a family through marriage without knowing that at the basic core you belong in this family. I could never marry a man who held moral views so different from mine. If a SO was raised to hold certain racists ideas, how could I justify my willingness to build a family with him by dismissing these beliefs as just how he was raised. I wont accept any expression of violence or intolerance so why would I bring it into my home?

Let's say a woman, born and raised in the US, travels half way across the world to a small village in Middle Eastern Country. For now lets just put the honor killings issue aside, do you think they will have the same views on many things? I am not talking about you but in general, a man raised in a small village or city, who has never been outside of his country will most likely not accept 50% of the things we do here because its not normal for them. Do you think his willingness to accept things that are new to him after 10 years of being exposed to it would change?

Let's take another it in another direction. For us here in the US, most of us don't believe in color lines and racism. For the most part we believe everyone is equal and that you should date and marry who you love with no boundries. Now ask these same set of men if they are ok with their daughter dating or marrying a Black, Mexican, or Chinese man. Most of them will say no. Interracial marriage is normal for them and without saying we all know this is a double standard since there is no problem with a man doing it.

Actually I am agreeing with more than disagreeing. I think bi-national relationships have their own unique dynamics. There is no way to fully understand a SO's culture with out having lived it. Most relationships here are going to have some dificult times ahead due to the cultural roadbumps. Many factors come into play- personality, mindset, flexibility etc....but I think a long term marriage for many here is simply not going to be a reality. I suspect many women simply have n idea what's ahead of them and this is just one issue of many others. This is what is one of the most shocking from all the things said in this thread.

[Reynaldo 0]

yeah the cat woman. about a block off of copacabana beach. some old woman surrounded by cats and a tent she'd made (and lived in) of plastic bags

I lived for a year 4 blocks away from copacabana and how did I miss that???

Did you see how healthy poor people in Rio are? They are always drinking water...

Never soda...

They are always with a water bottle in their hands...

[ya falaha! 0]

Even regarding his wife? Her commiting adultery is none of his business? Not saying you are or anything.

I'm curious, peezey, what is your husband's take on honor killings or punishment for adultery regarding women in his family? Does he not find it dishonorable for his wife, child, sister, or mother to commit adultery? Even in the states it's considered shameful to a point.

answer to #1, abhorrent re: murder or punishment

answer to #2, no, it's none of his business, in his opinion

[jordanianprincess 0]

I think for me the shocking thing about this thread remans that there are women who choose to marry men who hold such different views on basic values. It's easy to dismiss views on honor killings because the likelyhood that this will ever directly apply to them is minimum. BUT Bi-national marriages are hard enough with the added friction of holding such different core beliefs.

In the US a marriage is the union of two individuals, but for much of the rest of the world a marriage is the union of two families. I can never understand joining a family through marriage without knowing that at the basic core you belong in this family. I could never marry a man who held moral views so different from mine. If a SO was raised to hold certain racists ideas, how could I justify my willingness to build a family with him by dismissing these beliefs as just how he was raised. I wont accept any expression of violence or intolerance so why would I bring it into my home?

Let's say a woman, born and raised in the US, travels half way across the world to a small village in Middle Eastern Country. For now lets just put the honor killings issue aside, do you think they will have the same views on many things? I am not talking about you but in general, a man raised in a small village or city, who has never been outside of his country will most likely not accept 50% of the things we do here because its not normal for them. Do you think his willingness to accept things that are new to him after 10 years of being exposed to it would change?

Let's take another it in another direction. For us here in the US, most of us don't believe in color lines and racism. For the most part we believe everyone is equal and that you should date and marry who you love with no boundries. Now ask these same set of men if they are ok with their daughter dating or marrying a Black, Mexican, or Chinese man. Most of them will say no. Interracial marriage is normal for them and without saying we all know this is a double standard since there is no problem with a man doing it.

JP,

This is something you and I have talked about one-on-one, and I don't understand why a person would marry someone with views so different than theirs. I am not speaking broadly about all Arab/American relationships, because you can find a non-traditional thinking Arab and a non-traditional thinking American that meet somewhere in the middle - it isn't impossible. However, I think it is going to take two exceptional people, lots of patience and hard work.

I anticipate my husband may very well get more "traditional" as the years go on, and this is something I thought about and decided I would be comfortable with. My family has experience in the Middle East, so when we were getting serious about marriage, they as well as their friends brought up potential issues, and they put me in touch with people who had been in long-term (some as long as 50+ years) marriages between Arab men/American women to discuss potential issues/expectations.

What I find rather disturbing is people who want/anticipate their husband "breaking free" of their ways as they become more Americanized, and seeing this as some victory.

Rebecca

I also don't understand why someone would travel halfway across the world to marry someone without knowing their customs, culture, and traditions. This is one of the things I find the most shocking about the information that has come out of this thread.

To be quite honest its not uncommon for a man to "break free" of these beliefs. I see it all the time, in my own family. Not that it is a victory but people tend to change when they are exposed to different things, you can't always count on that but I give more credibility to someone like Moody that already has a full understanding of that process than someone who doesn't.

If you break it down, there are probebly many differnt combinations of vote so its hard to tell by looking at the polls. In my opinion and man that has premarital sex and says he would kill his daughter/sister for it doesn't believe in the custom and is trying to conform to what people want. He is more likely to change his views than someone that doesnt have premarital sex and says he will kill his sister/daughter. Does that make sense? I am not justifying either one but it's my analysis of the poll.

[peezey 0]

Well, with all dues respect, in your situation, an agnostic Muslim married to an atheist, one may see many exceptions.

Right, I can totally feel the respect in your statement.

I am not speaking of my own perspective, you spoke in absolutes, and there is just no such thing, anywhere.

SZSZ is right, shaming is almost always done in the Middle East and by Middle Eastern families in one form or another regardless of the subject.

She didn't say almost, that was my point.

I realize some of you here, as evidenced by a few of your statements, discount my experiences over the last 10 years with a Moroccan, because of my nontheism (I thought this had nothing to do with religion, szsz?), but having lived thee for months at a time, visited more than 10 times, I can confidently say that there are decent portions of Moroccan society who do not shame, kill, or otherwise ostracize family members for the things you are all talking about.

[peezey 0]

To be quite honest its not uncommon for a man to "break free" of these beliefs. I see it all the time, in my own family. Not that it is a victory but people tend to change when they are exposed to different things, you can't always count on that but I give more credibility to someone like Moody that already has a full understanding of that process than someone who doesn't.

This might be true over time if there is support of a larger family, for instance in your case, but there have been comments made here and over the last several years hearing immigration stories that the men seem to become even more attached to their beliefs, religious, cultural, or otherwise, because they find solace and sameness in them in a society that is quite different than the one they came from.