Honor Killings

[ya falaha! 0]

Because I don't have any experience with ppls from countries west of Egypt I guess I overestimated.

I would venture to guess that at least 90% of men from the MENA would agree with idea of honor killings. At least the ones who haven't lived in the West for long or at all.

90% of men in the entire MENA region? I seriously doubt it. I can see it being much more predominate in some areas and among certain socio-economic groups, but not 90% as a whole. Too many Berbers in NA to make it be that high.

ETA: I think JP is right when she says some might tolerate the idea, but would never engage it themselves

[sarah and hicham 3]

I would venture to guess that at least 90% of men from the MENA would agree with idea of honor killings. At least the ones who haven't lived in the West for long or at all.

90% of men in the entire MENA region? I seriously doubt it. I can see it being much more predominate in some areas and among certain socio-economic groups, but not 90% as a whole. Too many Berbers in NA to make it be that high.

ETA: I think JP is right when she says some might tolerate the idea, but would never engage it themselves

I agree that 90% seems a little high, but I guess Id on't really know.

There is a huge difference between agreeing with killing your child if she ever had those relations and actually doing it.

[ya falaha! 0]

Yes, I work with a Christian Iraqi girl who dates without her father's knowledge...amongst other things.

Do you guys know girls in MENA who date but who don't tell their Dad?

[Jenn! 918]

There is a huge difference between agreeing with killing your child if she ever had those relations and actually doing it.

IMO, the difference actually seems very small.

ETA: I think I misread what you said.

Edited January 4, 2007 by jenn3539

[mybackpages 0]

This is an interesting topic.

I don't know if Hicham's Dad would kill his daughter if he knew she had a boyfriend but I highly doubt it because his family is very open and non traditional.

His sister had a boyfriend for 2 years and although she never directly told her dad about it I think he had some idea about it. Hicham knew about it too.

Do you guys know girls in MENA who date but who don't tell their Dad?

Hicham's cousin dated a guy for 6 years and her Dad never knew although she did tell her Mom about it and she was ok with it. I don't think they had sex before their marriage though. (although I have no way of knowing that luckily)

JP when you say relations do you mean having sex or seeing a man and dating him without the family knowing?

It's the norm in Morocco for this younger generation to date and never tell their parents. I don;t think they do not tell because of beign disowned but rather because there are certain protocols you still respect in dealing with your parents.

[Private 1]

My fiance and I have never talked about this but I would think the answer would be no. He does not think that he has done the best things in life and when I explained to him that I wanted a Halal relationship and I want to stop "you know". He understood and said that he wanted the same thing for himself. He is religious but he is more concerned about him. (If this makes any sense.)

He would be upset but he knows about me and my son and the fact that I had him at 15 and he knows about the behavior from the past. He seems to understand and not judge me about this. As long as I am not doing it now I think is all that he cares about.

He would talk to them that is for sure, but I have not heard of a lot of this behavior in his country. Me and him when I visit we stay together and his aunt asked me if we where having relations and if I thought that he would be a good husband. (It was Arabic so I did not catch it all.) But she seem to be pleased with my answer, I told her it was good. (There is a stroy behind this. We where fighting and I told him that I did not want to be engaged anymore. She talked to me and she said that we shoudl work it out and that if he is good why let him go.)

We sleep in the same room but they are strongly encouraging us to get married because they know. His sisters seem to be very respectful of themselves, but I think that their father may hit them. And he is very watchful of all of his children.

[jordanianprincess 0]

This is an interesting topic.

I don't know if Hicham's Dad would kill his daughter if he knew she had a boyfriend but I highly doubt it because his family is very open and non traditional.

His sister had a boyfriend for 2 years and although she never directly told her dad about it I think he had some idea about it. Hicham knew about it too.

Do you guys know girls in MENA who date but who don't tell their Dad?

Hicham's cousin dated a guy for 6 years and her Dad never knew although she did tell her Mom about it and she was ok with it. I don't think they had sex before their marriage though. (although I have no way of knowing that luckily)

JP when you say relations do you mean having sex or seeing a man and dating him without the family knowing?

A girl could be killed for something as simple as talking to man. Relations could mean sex, holding hands, kissing, talking, etc. These are the same exact things that a brother would be willing to kill his sister for. As far as girls dating in Jordan, they do date, especially in more recent years,but they do it secretly. They tend to go out in groups of boys and girls which is now acceptable. However its still not acceptable for a girl to date or have a boyfriend. Girls from wealthier more americanized families may date with no consequences, but if you go out in to villages and older areas of Jordan, its absoulutly unheard of. Some countries are more liberal about it, especially Lebanon. Lebanese people are very westernized in their ways of thinking while still holding on the core values and customs of our ancestors, which I find very refreshing for the most part.

[mybackpages 0]

There is a huge difference between agreeing with killing your child if she ever had those relations and actually doing it.

IMO, the difference actually seems very small.

I agree Jenn, but I can see some mothers and fathers understanding the rationale for such a thing for someone else without ever wanting to carry out such an act or applying this thinking to their own family. If that makes sense

[sarah and hicham 3]

There is a huge difference between agreeing with killing your child if she ever had those relations and actually doing it.

IMO, the difference actually seems very small.

Maybe I need to explain better. What I mean is that sometimes people say they will do something however when it comes to the time to actually doing it they just can't do it because (to me) killing your own child sounds a bit extreme.

The difference is between a dead daughter and one who is still alive.

[jordanianprincess 0]

why, if we choose "nothing" for question 2, does it require explanation? a minority answer, maybe, but not something one cannot fathom.

I just thought there might be a reason to explain. Most arab men, no matter how westernized, would not want to see the girls in thier family having sexual relations with men when they are not married. So I figured if he were to do nothing, there would be a reason why.

Yes, I work with a Christian Iraqi girl who dates without her father's knowledge...amongst other things.

Do you guys know girls in MENA who date but who don't tell their Dad?

I know lots of arab girls that date in the US without their fathers knowledge (I was one of them ) but I don't know many that would do it in the Middle East.

[Jenn! 918]

There is a huge difference between agreeing with killing your child if she ever had those relations and actually doing it.

IMO, the difference actually seems very small.

I agree Jenn, but I can see some mothers and fathers understanding the rationale for such a thing for someone else without ever wanting to carry out such an act or applying this thinking to their own family. If that makes sense

Yeah, I edited my post above to say that I might have misread Sarah's statement. At first I took it as, there's a big difference between agreeing to have your daughter killed and actually doing it yourself.

I can see that something may be a good idea in theory, but impossible to carry out. Even so, both the agreeing with the idea and actually doing it are both reprehensible to me.

There is a huge difference between agreeing with killing your child if she ever had those relations and actually doing it.

IMO, the difference actually seems very small.

Maybe I need to explain better. What I mean is that sometimes people say they will do something however when it comes to the time to actually doing it they just can't do it because (to me) killing your own child sounds a bit extreme.

The difference is between a dead daughter and one who is still alive.

gotcha!

[sarah and hicham 3]

There is a huge difference between agreeing with killing your child if she ever had those relations and actually doing it.

IMO, the difference actually seems very small.

I agree Jenn, but I can see some mothers and fathers understanding the rationale for such a thing for someone else without ever wanting to carry out such an act or applying this thinking to their own family. If that makes sense

Yeah, I edited my post above to say that I might have misread Sarah's statement. At first I took it as, there's a big difference between agreeing to have your daughter killed and actually doing it yourself.

I can see that something may be a good idea in theory, but impossible to carry out. Even so, both the agreeing with the idea and actually doing it are both reprehensible to me.

There is a huge difference between agreeing with killing your child if she ever had those relations and actually doing it.

IMO, the difference actually seems very small.

Maybe I need to explain better. What I mean is that sometimes people say they will do something however when it comes to the time to actually doing it they just can't do it because (to me) killing your own child sounds a bit extreme.

The difference is between a dead daughter and one who is still alive.

gotcha!

oops sorry, I already posted before I saw that you edited your post. My bad!

[jordanianprincess 0]

It is also not uncommon to hear MENA men talking to other MENA men about how they would not think twice about commiting an honor killing if their wife/sister/daugter did such a thing. However if a MENA man were to say that he would not commit a honor killing, he would be considered a coward by other men. There is alot of pressure on them from their friends, families, and peers as well. They may agree to carry out an honor killing because if they don't, they could be killed for refusing to do it.

[Jenn! 918]

To me it seems like a paradox. I think of the family unit as being so much more valued in the MENA, yet at the same time it is acceptable to murder one's kin. Can anyone explain this?

[sarah and hicham 3]

To me it seems like a paradox. I think of the family unit as being so much more valued in the MENA, yet at the same time it is acceptable to murder one's kin. Can anyone explain this?

Doesn't it have something to do with saving the family's reputation? A girl who had sex outside of marriage is a disgrace to the family, right?

eta: I agree with you though... it seems like a paradox ans I don't think most of us will ever be able to understand or agree with that reasoning.

Edited January 4, 2007 by sarah and hicham