Honor Killings

[Sofiyya 1,687]

szsz,

You say that you do not accept it and are repulsed by it. I fail to see how we're saying anything different.

You say you have more insight into the cultural background of the practice which allows you to understand it. Does that not violate your position on moral relativism?

No, because I'm a realist and this is reality. My stand against moral relativism applies to my interpretation of things. No interpreting needed about the fact that honor killings and the justifications for it exist. And I worked some of the cases that have been tried, so I have first hand experience even tho my own family condemns it. That doesn't mean there are no mechanisms in place to shame family members into adopting certain limits of behavior. There are; that's why I stand against premarital sex and for marriage so strongly.

[Jenn! 918]

szsz,

You say that you do not accept it and are repulsed by it. I fail to see how we're saying anything different.

You say you have more insight into the cultural background of the practice which allows you to understand it. Does that not violate your position on moral relativism?

No, because I'm a realist and this is reality. My stand against moral relativism applies to my interpretation of things. No interpreting needed about the fact that honor killings and the justifications for it exist. And I worked some of the cases that have been tried, so I have first hand experience even tho my own family condemns it. That doesn't mean there are no mechanisms in place to shame family members into adopting certain limits of behavior. There are; that's why I stand against premarital sex and for marriage so strongly.

I really don't think that anybody's arguing otherwise. I think everyone knows that the justifications exist and recognize *why* some people still condone honor killings. We're just saying that doesn't mean that honor killings should be accepted as just one of those things that happens. We know it happens, it is reality, but it's not ok.

[Reynaldo 0]

No, because I'm a realist and this is reality. My stand against moral relativism applies to my interpretation of things. No interpreting needed about the fact that honor killings and the justifications for it exist. And I worked some of the cases that have been tried, so I have first hand experience even tho my own family condemns it. That doesn't mean there are no mechanisms in place to shame family members into adopting certain limits of behavior. There are; that's why I stand against premarital sex and for marriage so strongly.

You stand against premarital sex because of the shame family members will put the person in question through?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What actually is surprising to me is the number of women that are willing to travel half way across the world to marry a man who most of the time has never been out of his country and not understand his culture.

It does make one wonder.

well, understanding their culture is different than agreeing with it or validating it.

Ok, that is in their culture. I can understand why that has gotten there. But it is a wrong wrong thing to do.

And it should be on the "Things to take out of our culture" list...

Did I say it is a wrong thing to do? It is... A wrong wrong thing to do...

Brazil has this horror too. I've been there many times, sometimes on business and that involved some "crimes of passion" there. It hasn't been that long since the system there began to deal with the murder of a spouse or a girlfriend as anything other than a man's right.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

No, because I'm a realist and this is reality. My stand against moral relativism applies to my interpretation of things. No interpreting needed about the fact that honor killings and the justifications for it exist. And I worked some of the cases that have been tried, so I have first hand experience even tho my own family condemns it. That doesn't mean there are no mechanisms in place to shame family members into adopting certain limits of behavior. There are; that's why I stand against premarital sex and for marriage so strongly.

You stand against premarital sex because of the shame family members will put the person in question through?

The mechanisms exist from tradition, but I was taught by the Quran to follow God. Premarital sex would not please Him.

[jordanianprincess 0]

No, because I'm a realist and this is reality. My stand against moral relativism applies to my interpretation of things. No interpreting needed about the fact that honor killings and the justifications for it exist. And I worked some of the cases that have been tried, so I have first hand experience even tho my own family condemns it. That doesn't mean there are no mechanisms in place to shame family members into adopting certain limits of behavior. There are; that's why I stand against premarital sex and for marriage so strongly.

You stand against premarital sex because of the shame family members will put the person in question through?

She could be against it because of her religion.

[Reynaldo 0]

What actually is surprising to me is the number of women that are willing to travel half way across the world to marry a man who most of the time has never been out of his country and not understand his culture.

It does make one wonder.

well, understanding their culture is different than agreeing with it or validating it.

Ok, that is in their culture. I can understand why that has gotten there. But it is a wrong wrong thing to do.

And it should be on the "Things to take out of our culture" list...

Did I say it is a wrong thing to do? It is... A wrong wrong thing to do...

Brazil has this horror too. I've been there many times, sometimes on business and that involved some "crimes of passion" there. It hasn't been that long since the system there began to deal with the murder of a spouse or a girlfriend as anything other than a man's right.

Eeeyup. The difference is: Brazilian society condemns that since the 50s. But the laws regarding those issues were written in the 30s.

That is not in our culture, but Brazil is a paradise of corruption and people use loopholes in old laws to justify their acts.

[jordanianprincess 0]

szsz,

You say that you do not accept it and are repulsed by it. I fail to see how we're saying anything different.

You say you have more insight into the cultural background of the practice which allows you to understand it. Does that not violate your position on moral relativism?

No, because I'm a realist and this is reality. My stand against moral relativism applies to my interpretation of things. No interpreting needed about the fact that honor killings and the justifications for it exist. And I worked some of the cases that have been tried, so I have first hand experience even tho my own family condemns it. That doesn't mean there are no mechanisms in place to shame family members into adopting certain limits of behavior. There are; that's why I stand against premarital sex and for marriage so strongly.

I really don't think that anybody's arguing otherwise. I think everyone knows that the justifications exist and recognize *why* some people still condone honor killings. We're just saying that doesn't mean that honor killings should be accepted as just one of those things that happens. We know it happens, it is reality, but it's not ok.

Jenn I think we agree somewhat. I disagree that people here understand why it happens.

[Bosco 1]

It's not an excuse and its not bogus. I don't even see how you can make such an assesment. Many of the men who believe this come from villages and small cities. When you are raised to believe something is a certain way and everyone around believes the same, then why would they think its wrong? When you have never even been out of your country one time and are not exposed to anything else, why would you think its wrong?

Understanding this behavior and why people think this way is more important that criticizing them. You can't simply dismiss it as bogus and and an excuse when their families have behaved this way for hundreds of years. Being that Jordan, my home country, is one of the top offenders on this list, many of you would not understand why people still believe in these age old customs and traditions.

First of all there is no guarantee that what is said to be done will be done and that goes 2 ways. A man can say he would never lay a hand on his wife and he might get so outraged that he will. On the other hand, he could say that he has no problem killing his daughter if she were to have premarital sex and never be able to carry it out.

I am not shocked at the votes honestly. I expected to see it. If anyone else here has paid attention to people talking about where their fiances and husbands are from and where they have been, its no surprise to me to see some of this age old villager thinking.

I agree with you on this, JP. I think being Arab and closer to the cultures that condone this give us a better understanding of the dynamics even as we do not accept it and are repulsed by it. Something new of this sort can be shocking for those who had never considered it before.

I do realize upbringing plays a huge role in our norms, and I agree with that, but none of our husbands were raised in a vacuum where this is all they know. They were after all able to use resources to find wives from other countries so they have at minimum a *limited* knowledge of other ways. Honor killings are not the only way of handling a sister/chid having sex outside of marriage in any of their home countries and is probably a minority in most. Additionally, for the most part they are marrying women who at some point have had sex outside of marriage themselves, so somehow it is ok for their wife but warrants murder in their child/sister?

Also, you don't always even need exposure to other things to know something is wrong (i.e. - young children realizing molestation is wrong even if they have know nothing else).

I completly disagree with you on this. Jackie please forgive me for this because I am not singling you out. Yesterday Jackie stated that she was shocked at her husbands reaction. I was not. He is from the same small city that my fiances family is from. Although the city is more developed now, for a long time it was a small farming village. There are many people there that believe in this. There are many people that grew up seeing this everyday and it was normal to them. My grandmother told me stories last night of hundreds of girls this used to happen to.

I agree that this is not the best way to handle the situation but you have to understand why people think that way. Just because a guy can make his way into an internet cafe and meet a girl doesnt mean he has an open mind by any means. Many of the people there are not educated and Im not talking about the younger generation, Im talking about the older generations which is exactly who passes this ####### down. People dont question their elders in the Middle East they kiss the ground they walk on and don't question what they tell you.

I am not saying an internet cafe opens one's mind; however, it means they no longer have been exposed to other people who have different ways of handling things. The vacuum of not knowing any different no longer exists.

[Reynaldo 0]

The mechanisms exist from tradition, but I was taught by the Quran to follow God. Premarital sex would not please Him.

You are right. And you are exercising your right to have freedom for your religious beliefs. What if one of your daughters doesn't share those beliefs with you?

[mybackpages 0]

Concerning human nature, the "other guy" is always in some way wrong because his motivations are not based on the same reality as the one doing the observing of "the other guy". As many on this site should well know, the differences in cultures is sometimes subtle and sometimes not. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. This thread is just another frollick through the land of that creepy "other guy".

Yeah, but I'd say it's more than creepy though! This is about murder! I can't just chalk that up to different strokes for different folks...

Right! this is not about cultural relativism. There are certainly things that we can not agree with nor understand because of the cultural misunderstanding of the action. BUT this is about the justification of murder. You will find many people of the culture being questioned agreeing this is not an appropriate action. It's not just those on the outside of the culture calling it out.

Yes, and according to this poll we have 9 VJ members whose SO would kill their daughter. While there's no justification, at least there is a reason behind it - cultural upbringing. What is the excuse for the USC who has not been raised in that environment?

love

I'm sorry but that's not love.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Perhaps some discussions re Arab cultures are in order.

[peezey 0]

I really don't think that anybody's arguing otherwise. I think everyone knows that the justifications exist and recognize *why* some people still condone honor killings. We're just saying that doesn't mean that honor killings should be accepted as just one of those things that happens. We know it happens, it is reality, but it's not ok.

Jenn I think we agree somewhat. I disagree that people here understand why it happens.

Why is knowing the facts about why it happens a complicated concept? It doesn't seem to me that anyone here has said they don't comprehend anything that's been posted here in terms of personal stories, articles, etc.

[jordanianprincess 0]

It's not an excuse and its not bogus. I don't even see how you can make such an assesment. Many of the men who believe this come from villages and small cities. When you are raised to believe something is a certain way and everyone around believes the same, then why would they think its wrong? When you have never even been out of your country one time and are not exposed to anything else, why would you think its wrong?

Understanding this behavior and why people think this way is more important that criticizing them. You can't simply dismiss it as bogus and and an excuse when their families have behaved this way for hundreds of years. Being that Jordan, my home country, is one of the top offenders on this list, many of you would not understand why people still believe in these age old customs and traditions.

First of all there is no guarantee that what is said to be done will be done and that goes 2 ways. A man can say he would never lay a hand on his wife and he might get so outraged that he will. On the other hand, he could say that he has no problem killing his daughter if she were to have premarital sex and never be able to carry it out.

I am not shocked at the votes honestly. I expected to see it. If anyone else here has paid attention to people talking about where their fiances and husbands are from and where they have been, its no surprise to me to see some of this age old villager thinking.

I agree with you on this, JP. I think being Arab and closer to the cultures that condone this give us a better understanding of the dynamics even as we do not accept it and are repulsed by it. Something new of this sort can be shocking for those who had never considered it before.

I do realize upbringing plays a huge role in our norms, and I agree with that, but none of our husbands were raised in a vacuum where this is all they know. They were after all able to use resources to find wives from other countries so they have at minimum a *limited* knowledge of other ways. Honor killings are not the only way of handling a sister/chid having sex outside of marriage in any of their home countries and is probably a minority in most. Additionally, for the most part they are marrying women who at some point have had sex outside of marriage themselves, so somehow it is ok for their wife but warrants murder in their child/sister?

Also, you don't always even need exposure to other things to know something is wrong (i.e. - young children realizing molestation is wrong even if they have know nothing else).

I completly disagree with you on this. Jackie please forgive me for this because I am not singling you out. Yesterday Jackie stated that she was shocked at her husbands reaction. I was not. He is from the same small city that my fiances family is from. Although the city is more developed now, for a long time it was a small farming village. There are many people there that believe in this. There are many people that grew up seeing this everyday and it was normal to them. My grandmother told me stories last night of hundreds of girls this used to happen to.

I agree that this is not the best way to handle the situation but you have to understand why people think that way. Just because a guy can make his way into an internet cafe and meet a girl doesnt mean he has an open mind by any means. Many of the people there are not educated and Im not talking about the younger generation, Im talking about the older generations which is exactly who passes this ####### down. People dont question their elders in the Middle East they kiss the ground they walk on and don't question what they tell you.

I am not saying an internet cafe opens one's mind; however, it means they no longer have been exposed to other people who have different ways of handling things. The vacuum of not knowing any different no longer exists.

I disagree with you on this. This is very limited exposure and usually entails talking about "other things" and not their customs and culture. Ofcourse this is not true for everyone but for the most part it is.

Perhaps some discussions re Arab cultures are in order.

I fully agree with you on this.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The mechanisms exist from tradition, but I was taught by the Quran to follow God. Premarital sex would not please Him.

You are right. And you are exercising your right to have freedom for your religious beliefs. What if one of your daughters doesn't share those beliefs with you?

I'm not going to kill her, if that's what you're asking. This hasn't really been a problem in my family. Even the Christians in the family don't engage in premarital sex as part of their religious beliefs. Even the men.