Honor Killings

[peezey 0]

I think the excuse that it's how these men are raised is totally bogus. I also think the idea that this is just another one of the world's crazy **things**, is totally ridiculous. This is not something we are all actually totally removed from. We might be able to say that about some other bizarre thing in the world, maybe the Russian poisonings, since I think we are all pretty much totally removed from that. But this idea of murdering women is not a nebulous idea, and is obviously not totally removed from some people's realities here.

I wish those 9 or 10 who said their husband would murder their child or sister would step up, if they feel strong enough to vote that way, they should feel strong enough to comment.

It's not an excuse and its not bogus. I don't even see how you can make such an assesment. Many of the men who believe this come from villages and small cities. When you are raised to believe something is a certain way and everyone around believes the same, then why would they think its wrong? When you have never even been out of your country one time and are not exposed to anything else, why would you think its wrong?

Understanding this behavior and why people think this way is more important that criticizing them. You can't simply dismiss it as bogus and and an excuse when their families have behaved this way for hundreds of years. Being that Jordan, my home country, is one of the top offenders on this list, many of you would not understand why people still believe in these age old customs and traditions.

First of all there is no guarantee that what is said to be done will be done and that goes 2 ways. A man can say he would never lay a hand on his wife and he might get so outraged that he will. On the other hand, he could say that he has no problem killing his daughter if she were to have premarital sex and never be able to carry it out.

I am not shocked at the votes honestly. I expected to see it. If anyone else here has paid attention to people talking about where their fiances and husbands are from and where they have been, its no surprise to me to see some of this age old villager thinking.

Oh, it's totally bogus. There's nothing to learn here except whether or not your husband agrees with this, and if you accept that he does, and use cultural relativism as your excuse for accepting him for that, then it's bogus, bogus, bogus, a thousand times bogus.

So you think the reason WHYa man believes this is not important? I think the fact that you are dismissing this with very little knowledge about it is what is bogus. I think if you did a little digging into your husbands family and friends you would be surprised at what you would find.

I also don't put past many arabic men to agree with this sick behavior in front of other arabic men for the sake of pleasing the crowd. When you marry someone of another culture you need to do your best to understand their ways of thinking. There are many customs and traditions besides this one that are wrong in my eyes, but understanding their origin and why people believe that way is part of solving the problem.

Do you think that if people in the Middle East took the stance you are taking now, do you actually think they would be able to reach out and change anything? They wouldn't. I think alot of this, as SZSZ said goes way beyond what people here are willing to accept because they are non-arab. I don't accept it or condone it and neither does my family but we do understand it because my families ancestors are bedouin. My great-grandmother lived in a goat hair tent in the desert and these customs were theirs. In my family the custom died, in others it didn't.

Learn here in this thread, is what I meant.

I don't think this is a "custom" that deserves any kind of understanding, it deserves attention, but not understanding. It has nothing to do with being a non-Arab. Clearly there are Arabs who denounce this act, as you do and as your father does.

[jordanianprincess 0]

Maybe we're arguing different things here. My issue is with being an American woman and accepting the fact that your husband would kill your daughter. I'm excluding the instances where he says he would but he couldn't really do it, or you know that he wouldn't actually do it, he's all talk, etc. *Why* your husband would do it is really irrelevant if your child is dead.

Again, I'm focusing on those 10 kill votes which could very well be fake.

What actually is surprising to me is the number of women that are willing to travel half way across the world to marry a man who most of the time has never been out of his country and not understand his culture.

Maybe we're arguing different things here. My issue is with being an American woman and accepting the fact that your husband would kill your daughter. I'm excluding the instances where he says he would but he couldn't really do it, or you know that he wouldn't actually do it, he's all talk, etc. *Why* your husband would do it is really irrelevant if your child is dead.

Again, I'm focusing on those 10 kill votes which could very well be fake.

I think they are all fake.

Someone that would do it would have stepped up by now...

TRUST ME, they are not fake.

[Bosco 1]

It's not an excuse and its not bogus. I don't even see how you can make such an assesment. Many of the men who believe this come from villages and small cities. When you are raised to believe something is a certain way and everyone around believes the same, then why would they think its wrong? When you have never even been out of your country one time and are not exposed to anything else, why would you think its wrong?

Understanding this behavior and why people think this way is more important that criticizing them. You can't simply dismiss it as bogus and and an excuse when their families have behaved this way for hundreds of years. Being that Jordan, my home country, is one of the top offenders on this list, many of you would not understand why people still believe in these age old customs and traditions.

First of all there is no guarantee that what is said to be done will be done and that goes 2 ways. A man can say he would never lay a hand on his wife and he might get so outraged that he will. On the other hand, he could say that he has no problem killing his daughter if she were to have premarital sex and never be able to carry it out.

I am not shocked at the votes honestly. I expected to see it. If anyone else here has paid attention to people talking about where their fiances and husbands are from and where they have been, its no surprise to me to see some of this age old villager thinking.

I agree with you on this, JP. I think being Arab and closer to the cultures that condone this give us a better understanding of the dynamics even as we do not accept it and are repulsed by it. Something new of this sort can be shocking for those who had never considered it before.

I do realize upbringing plays a huge role in our norms, and I agree with that, but none of our husbands were raised in a vacuum where this is all they know. They were after all able to use resources to find wives from other countries so they have at minimum a *limited* knowledge of other ways. Honor killings are not the only way of handling a sister/chid having sex outside of marriage in any of their home countries and is probably a minority in most. Additionally, for the most part they are marrying women who at some point have had sex outside of marriage themselves, so somehow it is ok for their wife but warrants murder in their child/sister?

Also, you don't always even need exposure to other things to know something is wrong (i.e. - young children realizing molestation is wrong even if they have know nothing else).

[peezey 0]

Maybe we're arguing different things here. My issue is with being an American woman and accepting the fact that your husband would kill your daughter. I'm excluding the instances where he says he would but he couldn't really do it, or you know that he wouldn't actually do it, he's all talk, etc. *Why* your husband would do it is really irrelevant if your child is dead.

Again, I'm focusing on those 10 kill votes which could very well be fake.

What actually is surprising to me is the number of women that are willing to travel half way across the world to marry a man who most of the time has never been out of his country and not understand his culture.

me, too.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

unlikely, given the feeding frenzy that has been occuring.......

yeah, who voted got the ballz to kill their daughter/sister, but ain't got the ballz to step up in a forum.

the poll is not asking if the one voting would kill the daughter/sister.........

[jordanianprincess 0]

I think the excuse that it's how these men are raised is totally bogus. I also think the idea that this is just another one of the world's crazy **things**, is totally ridiculous. This is not something we are all actually totally removed from. We might be able to say that about some other bizarre thing in the world, maybe the Russian poisonings, since I think we are all pretty much totally removed from that. But this idea of murdering women is not a nebulous idea, and is obviously not totally removed from some people's realities here.

I wish those 9 or 10 who said their husband would murder their child or sister would step up, if they feel strong enough to vote that way, they should feel strong enough to comment.

It's not an excuse and its not bogus. I don't even see how you can make such an assesment. Many of the men who believe this come from villages and small cities. When you are raised to believe something is a certain way and everyone around believes the same, then why would they think its wrong? When you have never even been out of your country one time and are not exposed to anything else, why would you think its wrong?

Understanding this behavior and why people think this way is more important that criticizing them. You can't simply dismiss it as bogus and and an excuse when their families have behaved this way for hundreds of years. Being that Jordan, my home country, is one of the top offenders on this list, many of you would not understand why people still believe in these age old customs and traditions.

First of all there is no guarantee that what is said to be done will be done and that goes 2 ways. A man can say he would never lay a hand on his wife and he might get so outraged that he will. On the other hand, he could say that he has no problem killing his daughter if she were to have premarital sex and never be able to carry it out.

I am not shocked at the votes honestly. I expected to see it. If anyone else here has paid attention to people talking about where their fiances and husbands are from and where they have been, its no surprise to me to see some of this age old villager thinking.

Oh, it's totally bogus. There's nothing to learn here except whether or not your husband agrees with this, and if you accept that he does, and use cultural relativism as your excuse for accepting him for that, then it's bogus, bogus, bogus, a thousand times bogus.

So you think the reason WHYa man believes this is not important? I think the fact that you are dismissing this with very little knowledge about it is what is bogus. I think if you did a little digging into your husbands family and friends you would be surprised at what you would find.

I also don't put past many arabic men to agree with this sick behavior in front of other arabic men for the sake of pleasing the crowd. When you marry someone of another culture you need to do your best to understand their ways of thinking. There are many customs and traditions besides this one that are wrong in my eyes, but understanding their origin and why people believe that way is part of solving the problem.

Do you think that if people in the Middle East took the stance you are taking now, do you actually think they would be able to reach out and change anything? They wouldn't. I think alot of this, as SZSZ said goes way beyond what people here are willing to accept because they are non-arab. I don't accept it or condone it and neither does my family but we do understand it because my families ancestors are bedouin. My great-grandmother lived in a goat hair tent in the desert and these customs were theirs. In my family the custom died, in others it didn't.

Learn here in this thread, is what I meant.

I don't think this is a "custom" that deserves any kind of understanding, it deserves attention, but not understanding. It has nothing to do with being a non-Arab. Clearly there are Arabs who denounce this act, as you do and as your father does.

Understanding the problem is half of the solution which is why so many arabs have denounced this over the years.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Additionally, for the most part they are marrying women who at some point have had sex outside of marriage themselves, so somehow it is ok for their wife but warrants murder in their child/sister?

Foreign wives were not part of their social system, now they are. Daughters will always be. As JP said, a man who says he can't, maybe he can, but you won't know until the time comes.

[Reynaldo 0]

unlikely, given the feeding frenzy that has been occuring.......

yeah, who voted got the ballz to kill their daughter/sister, but ain't got the ballz to step up in a forum.

the poll is not asking if the one voting would kill the daughter/sister.........

Yeah, i remembered that after posting.

Well, how can someone sleep with someone with such a strong opinion on a subject and not deffend him in here?

Edited January 5, 2007 by Reynaldo

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What actually is surprising to me is the number of women that are willing to travel half way across the world to marry a man who most of the time has never been out of his country and not understand his culture.

It does make one wonder.

[Jenn! 918]

szsz,

You say that you do not accept it and are repulsed by it. I fail to see how we're saying anything different.

You say you have more insight into the cultural background of the practice which allows you to understand it. Does that not violate your position on moral relativism?

Oops, sorry, I mean green-eyed girl!

Edited January 5, 2007 by jenn3539

[jordanianprincess 0]

It's not an excuse and its not bogus. I don't even see how you can make such an assesment. Many of the men who believe this come from villages and small cities. When you are raised to believe something is a certain way and everyone around believes the same, then why would they think its wrong? When you have never even been out of your country one time and are not exposed to anything else, why would you think its wrong?

Understanding this behavior and why people think this way is more important that criticizing them. You can't simply dismiss it as bogus and and an excuse when their families have behaved this way for hundreds of years. Being that Jordan, my home country, is one of the top offenders on this list, many of you would not understand why people still believe in these age old customs and traditions.

First of all there is no guarantee that what is said to be done will be done and that goes 2 ways. A man can say he would never lay a hand on his wife and he might get so outraged that he will. On the other hand, he could say that he has no problem killing his daughter if she were to have premarital sex and never be able to carry it out.

I am not shocked at the votes honestly. I expected to see it. If anyone else here has paid attention to people talking about where their fiances and husbands are from and where they have been, its no surprise to me to see some of this age old villager thinking.

I agree with you on this, JP. I think being Arab and closer to the cultures that condone this give us a better understanding of the dynamics even as we do not accept it and are repulsed by it. Something new of this sort can be shocking for those who had never considered it before.

I do realize upbringing plays a huge role in our norms, and I agree with that, but none of our husbands were raised in a vacuum where this is all they know. They were after all able to use resources to find wives from other countries so they have at minimum a *limited* knowledge of other ways. Honor killings are not the only way of handling a sister/chid having sex outside of marriage in any of their home countries and is probably a minority in most. Additionally, for the most part they are marrying women who at some point have had sex outside of marriage themselves, so somehow it is ok for their wife but warrants murder in their child/sister?

Also, you don't always even need exposure to other things to know something is wrong (i.e. - young children realizing molestation is wrong even if they have know nothing else).

I completly disagree with you on this. Jackie please forgive me for this because I am not singling you out. Yesterday Jackie stated that she was shocked at her husbands reaction. I was not. He is from the same small city that my fiances family is from. Although the city is more developed now, for a long time it was a small farming village. There are many people there that believe in this. There are many people that grew up seeing this everyday and it was normal to them. My grandmother told me stories last night of hundreds of girls this used to happen to.

I agree that this is not the best way to handle the situation but you have to understand why people think that way. Just because a guy can make his way into an internet cafe and meet a girl doesnt mean he has an open mind by any means. Many of the people there are not educated and Im not talking about the younger generation, Im talking about the older generations which is exactly who passes this ####### down. People dont question their elders in the Middle East they kiss the ground they walk on and don't question what they tell you.

[Reynaldo 0]

What actually is surprising to me is the number of women that are willing to travel half way across the world to marry a man who most of the time has never been out of his country and not understand his culture.

It does make one wonder.

well, understanding their culture is different than agreeing with it or validating it.

Ok, that is in their culture. I can understand why that has gotten there. But it is a wrong wrong thing to do.

And it should be on the "Things to take out of our culture" list...

Did I say it is a wrong thing to do? It is... A wrong wrong thing to do...

[Together4ever 1]

Concerning human nature, the "other guy" is always in some way wrong because his motivations are not based on the same reality as the one doing the observing of "the other guy". As many on this site should well know, the differences in cultures is sometimes subtle and sometimes not. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. This thread is just another frollick through the land of that creepy "other guy".

Yeah, but I'd say it's more than creepy though! This is about murder! I can't just chalk that up to different strokes for different folks...

Hence the different reality...

[jordanianprincess 0]

What actually is surprising to me is the number of women that are willing to travel half way across the world to marry a man who most of the time has never been out of his country and not understand his culture.

It does make one wonder.

well, understanding their culture is different than agreeing with it or validating it.

Ok, that is in their culture. I can understand why that has gotten there. But it is a wrong wrong thing to do.

And it should be on the "Things to take out of our culture" list...

Did I say it is a wrong thing to do? It is... A wrong wrong thing to do...

I agree and there are many people working very hard to make this illegal and to educate people about it. I don't validate it and its part of my so called "culture" that I don't accept. However many women here didn't even know the answer to what their husbands felt about this.

[peezey 0]

Additionally, for the most part they are marrying women who at some point have had sex outside of marriage themselves, so somehow it is ok for their wife but warrants murder in their child/sister?

Foreign wives were not part of their social system, now they are. Daughters will always be. As JP said, a man who says he can't, maybe he can, but you won't know until the time comes.

Every effing stain on humanity was acceptable at some point.