I was asked why does the Phils have a high incidence of scam. Agree or disagree?

[kitthekat 1,317]

And of course there is the statement right on the USEM website, (but then maybe this warning is on all embassy websites):

FRAUD NOTICE / WARNING

• Committing visa fraud or providing false information on your petition, visa application or to a Consular Officer may result in the revocation of your petition and/or a permanent ineligibility to travel, work or immigrate to the United States.

  U.S. Embassy Manila does not endorse or have a "special relationship" with any individual or business that offers advice or assistance with the visa process. No one can guarantee the issuance of a visa to you. Visa eligibility can only be determined at the time of the visa interview. All U.S. government forms are free.

  Beware: many visa applicants lose money or are permanently barred from the United States as a result of misleading information and fraudulent applications provided by visa consultants.

I was just about to link to that...US embassy Manila has one of the largest fraud prevention units amongst the consulates (see: http://oig.state.gov/documents/organization/206560.pdf page 18, 2nd last paragraph). It goes on to suggest that the fraud rates in Manila are actually under-reported:

Although the embassy’s fraud prevention unit is among the largest in the world, with

eight LE staff fraud investigators, the number of field investigations dropped precipitously from

more than 200 in 2008 to only 5 in 2011. Funds are available for necessary field investigations,

which are needed to curb consular fraud. A mid-level fraud prevention manager and a rotational

entry-level officer oversee the work of 4 eligible family members and 15 LE staff members. The

unit appropriately uses the Bureau of Consular Affairs’ Enterprise Case Assessment System for

all fraud referrals and has a highly skilled team of fraud investigators. The fraud prevention

manager did not provide a clear explanation for the reduction in field investigations. During the

inspection, several fraud rings involving domestic employees and concerns about potential

marriage fraud came to the attention of the OIG team, highlighting the importance of active

antifraud work in this local environment.

Recommendation 14: Embassy Manila should analyze the reasons for reduced productivity in

the fraud unit and undertake additional field work to investigate potential fraud. (Action:

Embassy Manila)

[Crashed~N2~Me 970]

1) actually, his only claim was that there is no government publication that lists the PI as high fraud...as written in black and white in the linked report, they were in the top 10 in 2005.

2) your argument contains a fallacy known as "circular reasoning", basically where the premise of the argument rests on an assumption (usually unproven/inaccurate). as you pointed out yourself, there is a way around obtaining divorce, involving the foreign spouse initiating divorce.

3) when you measure high-fraud, you are not dealing solely in numbers, but also in percentage. 300 is a small number, but 300 out of 400 is 75%.

1) You should reread his post ...& for you ...it might be a good idea you reread it more than once - to make sure you got it. (but) For me & I am sure others...his argument is pretty clear....

His argument = "Go ahead now and demonstrate with any U.S. Department of State publication that Philippines is a high marriage fraud country."

2) Suggesting Circular Reasoning is flawed does not validate your argument.

3) & yet you employ circular reasoning instead of linear = process of elimination to determine as I stated above - A) Worldwide immigrant visa fraud was just over 1% in 2010. B) "Typical" fraud involved divorce then marriage then divorce then marriage. PI doesn't allow PI citizen to divorce which eliminates married PIC from this "typical" scenario. That's linear not circular....do some more research before you copy and paste an argument next time.

BTW...exaggerating the numbers to 75% is way higher than (just over) 1% worldwide stated in the report. Embellishment doesn't win an argument either.

rlogan - plus 1 ..kitthekatt - minus 1....you're not helping your score.

[kitthekat 1,317]

lol i didn't say that marriage fraud rates in the PI (or worldwide) were 75%...where did you get that from?

i wasn't trying to validate my argument either, i was invalidating yours.

it is irrelevant whether worldwide immigrant visa fraud was 1% or 20%, the point is that PI was one of the top 10 in that however many percent in 2005.

the fact that PI doesn't allow its citizens to initiate divorce does not preclude them from 'typical' fraud cases, because, as you pointed out, there is a way around it.

what argument did i copy and paste?

[Crashed~N2~Me 970]

i wasn't trying to validate my argument either, i was invalidating yours.

Well...you failed.

& now you're playing dodge ball. I have better things to do than take bait. better luck next time.

oh..before I go...it's 2014....not 2005.

[kitthekat 1,317]

i find it funny that you jumped on me because i was simply rebutting a claim (not argument) that such data didn't exist, when it obviously does. hey, it's great you're patriotic. my intention was never to paint all applicants from one country with the same brush just because of the acts of a group of scammers.

but the fact is, you don't solve problems by pushing them under the rug. ignoring and/or denying its existence allows the problem to perpetuate. i'm glad the fraud prevention unit in manila is facing pressure to up their productivity, and that someone is aware of and trying to curb the problem. it will make things much easier for those who do have genuine intentions.

[B_J 2,752]

People on this site are too quick to label people as scammers; especially if it's a woman from the Philippines.

As I've said before, most of the "bad" Fil-Am marriages I've seen are bad because of the US citizen.

A man who goes to the Philippines, acts like he is kind, wealthy, and generous - but totally changes when the marriage finally takes place is, in my opinion, just as guilty of a scam as anybody else.

But also, not every failed marriage was a scam. I can go for weeks or months without ever speaking to anybody in my family. But my wife still talks to her mom almost every day. She is just so much closer to her family than I am. If she had got here and found that she simply could not be so far away from her family; that wouldn't mean she scammed me. It would just mean that the difficulties in this type of a relationship were too much for us to overcome. Thankfully, our marriage is fine, but I can understand how hard it can be.

But too often, people have had this happen to them and then post here on VJ about how "my Filipina" scammed me. And then the entire herd of people who just wait to criticize Filipinas jumps in. It does get a little old.

Edited February 27, 2014 by B_J

[Caryh 5,206]

People on this site are too quick to label people as scammers; especially if it's a woman from the Philippines.

As I've said before, most of the "bad" Fil-Am marriages I've seen are bad because of the US citizen.

A man who goes to the Philippines, acts like he is kind, wealthy, and generous - but totally changes when the marriage finally takes place is, in my opinion, just as guilty of a scam as anybody else.

But also, not every failed marriage was a scam. I can go for weeks or months without ever speaking to anybody in my family. But my wife still talks to her mom almost every day. She is just so much closer to her family than I am. If she had got here and found that she simply could not be so far away from her family; that wouldn't mean she scammed me. It would just mean that the difficulties in this type of a relationship were too much for us to overcome. Thankfully, our marriage is fine, but I can understand how hard it can be.

But too often, people have had this happen to them and then post here on VJ about how "my Filipina" scammed me. And then the entire herd of people who just wait to criticize Filipinas jumps in. It does get a little old.

I understand completely what you're saying here. This is a pretty common complaint of Filipinas in the USA. They're so close to family that being separated suddenly causes all types of problems with them dealing with the separation.

But to make a point towards the Philippines being a high fraud country, the Philippines is a country that runs on fraud, bribes and corruption. Everyone knows how to find a fixer for just about any thing. They might be a real fixer, or they may be just trying to take someone's money, so even the fraud creators are often scammers. I know a Canadian who lived in the Philippines. He married and had children with a Filipina and eventually the marriage went sour. A few years later he meets another Filipina and decides he wants to marry her. So he found a fixer to fix his marriage record showing him once again as single. The then married this new Filipina, which created quite a stir when he died and two wives showed up to collect all the assets from his business. But he was smart and left a will leaving it all to his daughter back in Canada.

Another Filipina, coworker of my sister in law. Meets an American and wants to come to the USA on a K-1. Only problem was she was married to a Filipino who left her a number of years earlier. At first she was going to use her sister's identity to get the K-1. But her sister decided she might one day get an American to. So the American pays for a Fixer within the NSO to fix her CEMAR and get it turned into a CENOMAR. She's been in the USA a number of years now, married to that American and they have children together.

Both of these are cases of fraud that happens constantly in the Philippines. In the later case if the marriage had failed I could see the husband complaining he had been a victim of fraud because she was already married. Even if he knew that fact up front and even paid to get it fixed.

How many people here with families or in laws in the Philippines haven't heard of the free rice handed out at election time? Or you want to get someone charged with a crime and arrested, but the cops do nothing until you pay them something?

Is their fraud in the Philippines? Its full of it, but that doesn't equate to marriage fraud. Although in a society that deals with so much fraud and corruption, can there really be any doubt that there will be scammers that will scam a person into marriage in order to get into the USA?

From what I've seen many cases of claimed fraud are angry spouses in failed relationships, and there was no intent to commit fraud at the beginning. But I'd be foolish to think a society with such a high level of endemic corruption, isn't going to see a higher percentage of scammers than from countries that don't see as corruption in their society.

[B_J 2,752]

I understand completely what you're saying here. This is a pretty common complaint of Filipinas in the USA. They're so close to family that being separated suddenly causes all types of problems with them dealing with the separation.

But to make a point towards the Philippines being a high fraud country, the Philippines is a country that runs on fraud, bribes and corruption. Everyone knows how to find a fixer for just about any thing. They might be a real fixer, or they may be just trying to take someone's money, so even the fraud creators are often scammers. I know a Canadian who lived in the Philippines. He married and had children with a Filipina and eventually the marriage went sour. A few years later he meets another Filipina and decides he wants to marry her. So he found a fixer to fix his marriage record showing him once again as single. The then married this new Filipina, which created quite a stir when he died and two wives showed up to collect all the assets from his business. But he was smart and left a will leaving it all to his daughter back in Canada.

Another Filipina, coworker of my sister in law. Meets an American and wants to come to the USA on a K-1. Only problem was she was married to a Filipino who left her a number of years earlier. At first she was going to use her sister's identity to get the K-1. But her sister decided she might one day get an American to. So the American pays for a Fixer within the NSO to fix her CEMAR and get it turned into a CENOMAR. She's been in the USA a number of years now, married to that American and they have children together.

Both of these are cases of fraud that happens constantly in the Philippines. In the later case if the marriage had failed I could see the husband complaining he had been a victim of fraud because she was already married. Even if he knew that fact up front and even paid to get it fixed.

How many people here with families or in laws in the Philippines haven't heard of the free rice handed out at election time? Or you want to get someone charged with a crime and arrested, but the cops do nothing until you pay them something?

Is their fraud in the Philippines? Its full of it, but that doesn't equate to marriage fraud. Although in a society that deals with so much fraud and corruption, can there really be any doubt that there will be scammers that will scam a person into marriage in order to get into the USA?

From what I've seen many cases of claimed fraud are angry spouses in failed relationships, and there was no intent to commit fraud at the beginning. But I'd be foolish to think a society with such a high level of endemic corruption, isn't going to see a higher percentage of scammers than from countries that don't see as corruption in their society.

Totally agree.

I just think too many people are throwing out the marriage fraud accusation for any type of failed marriage. It is not marriage fraud if all she wants is to give up and go home. Yet there are a lot here who look for any chance to label every Fil-Am marriage problem as a scam/fraud.

[Scott & Kaye 32]

People on this site are too quick to label people as scammers; especially if it's a woman from the Philippines.

But too often, people have had this happen to them and then post here on VJ about how "my Filipina" scammed me. And then the entire herd of people who just wait to criticize Filipinas jumps in. It does get a little old.

snip

I agree, its just like the Hotel and Restaurant reviews online. The only people who make lengthy reviews are the ones who usually had a bad meal, bad stay or in this case a bad marriage.

[rlogan 2,036]

actually, his only claim was that there is no government publication that lists the PI as high fraud...as written in black and white in the linked report, they were in the top 10 in 2005.

The topic, which I followed in the Effects of Major Changes page, and is now polluting this page, regards MARRIAGE visa fraud.

The report cited, as anyone who can read will see is vastly weighted by non-immigrant visas, not even immigrant visas, let alone marriage visas. There isn't anything at all in the report about marriage fraud statistics, other than it sometimes happens.

[Al422 221]

Yes there are scammers here, but hardly most of the people; in fact probably a very smal percentage of the people. It juist seems there are a lot because the few that there are sense that there are a lot of "customers" to be had on the marriage websites.

Now the wage disparity between Phil and New York is certainly there, but not as great as the numbers suggest. Sure they make $1.something an hour, but they rent apartments for $100 a month. In New York, where I live, you can't even rent a parking space for $100 a month. For a studio apartment here, you are looking at $1800 a month, and more like $2500 for a one bedroom.