Gun control and mass shooting events

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What can or should be done to prevent mass shooting events, such as Sandy Hook?

If banning so called assault weapons isn't the answer, what is? Is the government within its rights to do anything? Is it reasonable to challenge the limits of the second amendment in light of these events?

Practical ideas only please, leave the personal stuff and ideological grandstanding out of this thread.

[Sousuke 1,214]

Its a tough question. There have been 3 mass shootings in the US this year. Lets look at those:

Yesterday there was a mass shooting in CA where a woman shot 5 people with a hand gun and chopped up a 6th with a Butcher Knife. She was being evicted.

On january 30th, a man, his wife and 2 kids were murdered in their home.

On January 16th a police officer shot his wife, kids and mother in law.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Its a tough question. There have been 3 mass shootings in the US this year. Lets look at those:

Yesterday there was a mass shooting in CA where a woman shot 5 people with a hand gun and chopped up a 6th with a Butcher Knife. She was being evicted.

On january 30th, a man, his wife and 2 kids were murdered in their home.

On January 16th a police officer shot his wife, kids and mother in law.

According to this tracker, there have actually been 35 of those thus far up to February 16 this year. Let that sink in for a moment: 35 mass shootings in 47 days. That's a little over 2 every three days.

http://www.reddit.com/r/GunsAreCool/wiki/2014massshootings

Number 1: 1/1/14, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Norfolk, VA

WVEC TV - Norfolk Police say four people shot early New Year's Day

WAVY-TV - Victims of Norfolk double homicide ID'd

Number 2: 1/4/14, Leonard “Frank” Harris Jr, 2 dead 2 injured, Rock Falls, IL

WQAD-TV - Names Released After Deadly Shooting In Rock Falls

Quad City Times - 2 dead after shooting outside Rock Falls tavern

KWQC-TV - Deadly Shooting in Rock Falls

Number 3: 1/5/14, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Erie, OH

Erie Times News - Man shot dead at private party in Parade Street building

WICU - 1 killed, 3 injured in Early Morning Shooting

Number 4: 1/6/14, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, New York (Queens), NY

The New York Times - Gunman Fires at Moving S.U.V. in Queens, Killing One and Wounding Three Others

Pix11.com - Rapper with ties to 50 Cent shot dead in Queens; 3 others hurt

Number 5: 1/12/14, Unknown, 4 injured, Portland, OR

KATU - One man fighting for life, three more hurt after Mystic strip club shootout

Fox12 KPTV - ecurity guard could lose life in strip club shooting

Portland Tribune - Bouncer shoots gunman at strip club, others wounded

Number 6: 1/12/14, Unknown, 5 injured, Elgin, Il

Elgin Daily Herald - http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20140112/news/701129890/

Chicago Tribune - Elgin shooting leaves 5 injured

Number 7: 1/12/14, Unknown, 5 injured, Huntsville, AL

WHNT - 15-Year-Old Arrested In Bench Warmer Shooting; Club’s Liquor License Suspended

WHNT - Multiple People Shot at Bench Warmer Too in Huntsville

Number 8: 1/14/14, Unknown, 4 injured, Los Angeles, CA

NBC Los Angeles - Four People Shot in South LA

KTLA - 4 Wounded in South Los Angeles Shooting: LAPD

LA Times - Four men wounded in drive-by shooting in South L.A.

Number 9: 1/16/14, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Ardmore, OK

CNN - Teen killed after shooting several people, including 2 ATF agents, police say

CBS News - Teen who shot 4, including 2 ATF agents, is killed by cops, police say

KTEN - Shooting Suspect Dead After Citywide Manhunt And Shootout With Police

Number 10: 1/16/14, Joshua Boren, 5 dead, Spanish Fork, UT

Washington Post - Family, friends stunned by Utah murder-suicide

The Salt Lake Tribune - Vigil honors Utah family killed in murder-suicide

Number 11: 1/16/14, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Fresno, CA

LA Times - Fresno carjacking, shooting spree leaves 2 dead, 2 injured

Fresno Bee - 2 dead, 2 hurt in wild Fresno carjacking spree

Number 12: 1/20/14, Jeremiah Eugene Pullen, 4 injured, Manassas, VI

Washington Post - Four shot at Manassas sports bar; police arrest suspect

NBC Washington - Man Charged in Manassas Quadruple Shooting

New York Daily News - Man arrested after shooting four people at Virginia sports bar

Number 13: 1/21/14, Unknown, 2 dead 3 injured, Newark, NJ

NJ.com - Prosecutors identify victims in Newark shooting that left 2 dead, 3 hurt

ABC27 - Authorities ID woman killed in Newark car shooting

NJ.com - Multiple shooting in Newark leaves 2 dead, three others hurt

Number 14: 1/25/14, Unknown, 4 injured, Belle Glade, FL

CBS12 - Four People Shot In Belle Glade

Sun Sentinel - Four wounded in Belle Glade shooting

Number 15: 1/25/14, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Chicago, IL

Chicago Sun Times - 1 dead, 4 wounded in South Side bar shooting

ABC Local - Lounge shooting kills 1, wounds 4 at Rudy's Lounge

NBC Chicago - 1 Dead, 4 Injured in Shooting at Birthday Party in Chicago Lounge

Number 16: 1/27/14, Unknown, 4 injured, Rocky Mount, NC

WRAL-TV - Four people shot behind church in Rocky Moun

ABC Local - 4 young people shot on Rocky Mount basketball court

Number 17: 1/27/14, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Seattle, WA

Q13 Fox - 5 people shot in Pioneer Square; one woman seriously wounded

The Seattle Times - Woman who died after Jan. 27 Pioneer Square shooting is ID’d

Number 18: 1/28/14, Unknown, 5 injured, Milwaukee, WI

Fox6 - At least five victims discovered after shooting near 28th & Chambers

WISN-TV - Five juveniles shot near 28th, Locust in Milwaukee

Number 19: 1/28/14, Unknown, 3 dead 5 injured, Baltimore, MD

TheBottomLine - Three Killed, Five Injured During Shooting in Maryland Mall

Fox Baltimore - Three Dead in Mall Shooting in Columbia

Number 20: 2/2/14, Andrew Parish, 3 dead 2 injured, Franklin, IL

The Indy Channel - Man kills self after fatally shooting 19-year-old woman, injuring 3 others

Indy Star - Franklin police investigate apparent murder-suicide

WISH-TV - 2 dead after Franklin shooting

The Indy Channel - Man kills self after fatally shooting 2, injuring 2 others

Number 21: 2/3/14, Unknown, 4 dead, Cypress, TX

Chron.com - Cops seek gunman in Cypress shooting that killed 4

KHOU-TV - Family of 4, including 2 kids, found dead in Cypress home

ABC Local - Investigators baffled by family's murder mystery in Cypress

Number 22: 2/5/14, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Perry, FL

WCTV-TV - Suspect Dead, 3 Injured In Perry Ford Dealership Shooting

WTXL-TV - Shooting at Taylor County car dealership

Tallahassee.com - Shooter dead in Perry Ford dealership shooting

Number 23: 2/6/14, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Chicago, IL

Chicago Tribune - Police search for masked gunman who killed teen, wounded 3 others

ABC Local - Rogers Park shooting: 1 dead, 3 injured in shooting at Pratt Blvd., Clark Street

Number 24: 2/6/14, Robert Garza Sr., 4 dead, Defiance, OH

Fox News - 4 dead in apparent murder-suicide in Ohio, authorities say

New York Daily News - Four family members dead in gruesome triple murder-suicide in Ohio house

- Four Found Dead in Apparent Ohio Murder-Suicide

Number 25: 2/7/14, Unknown, 4 injured, New Orleans, LA

WAFB-TV - Four people shot at lounge in eastern New Orleans

Times-Picayune - 4 people recovering after club shooting in eastern New Orleans

WWL-TV - NOPD investigates four shot at New Orleans East nightclub

Number 26: 2/12/14, Unknown, 5 injured, Gary, IN

ABC Local - 5 shot at Safe and Sound Senior Citizen Social Club in Gary, Indiana

Number 27: 2/12/14, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Stockton, CA

KCRA - 4 shot, 1 killed in shooting at Stockton park

Number 28: 2/12/14, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Oakland, CA

- One dead, 3 wounded in Oakland shooting

Number 29: 2/15/14, Unknown, 5 injured, Las Vegas, NV

Fox 5 Vegas. - 5 people wounded in shooting at Las Vegas wedding reception.

Las Vegas Review Journal - Several people shot at Las Vegas wedding reception Saturday

Number 30: 2/15/14, Unknown, 5 injured, Fort Wayne, IN

- Five injured in Fort Wayne shooting

Number 31: 2/16/14, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Saginaw, MI

Mlive.com - 1 woman, 3 men shot outside Saginaw club recovering at hospital

Mlive.com - Saginaw police: Four people shot at nightclub

Number 32: 2/16/14, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Fort Worth, TX

Star-Telegram - One dead, four wounded at Fort Worth Stockyards

Fox Dallas Ft. Worth - One dead, four injured in shooting at Fort Worth Stockyards bar

Number 33: 2/16/14, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Jacksonville, FL

First Coast News - 1 dead, 4 injured in nightclub shooting

Jacksonville.com - One dead, four injured in shooting at Murray Hill nightclub

The Gainesville Sun - One dead, four injured after shooting at Florida club

Number 34: 2/16/14, Unknown, 1 dead 6 injured, Dallas, TX

CBS Local - ONE DEAD, SIX INJURED AFTER SHOOTING AT DALLAS NIGHTCLUB

NBC Dallas Ft. Worth - One Dead, Six Injured in Dallas Nightclub Shooting

The Dallas Morning News - 7 shot, one fatally, in gang-related shooting at South Dallas nightclub

Number 35: 2/16/14, Unknown, 1 dead 6 injured, Pine Hills, FL

The Gainesville Sun - One dead, six injured after shots fired at house party

Greenfield Daily Reporter - 1 dead, 6 injured after shots fired at house party in central Florida

The Miami Herald - 1 dead, 6 injured after shots fired at house party

[Pooky 3,781]

Ban people!

Problem solved.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

TBH, the answer is somewhere in the middle. The problem is you'd have to get both sides to sit down and come up with a rational solution. This will never happen because;

On the left, you have folks that don't want anyone to have a gun based on the fact that you never know when someone might snap and kill someone with a gun. You also have folks that want tighter gun control laws, and respect law abiding gun owners, but anytime a mass shooting happens or someone with a gun kills people, it's going to be an uproar.

On the right, there's the let's arm everyone mentality, which seems to feed the idea that if everyone is armed, you'd have less crime and shootings. These folks don't live in Chiraq or Bloodymore, so for them it's just a punchline. There are people who aren't of sound mind to be armed, but any restriction of the 2nd amendment, next thing you know the black helicopters are coming.

Both sides need to come together and talk about a solution, this will require compromise. A word that neither side wants to give.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

TBH, the answer is somewhere in the middle. The problem is you'd have to get both sides to sit down and come up with a rational solution. This will never happen because;

On the left, you have folks that don't want anyone to have a gun based on the fact that you never know when someone might snap and kill someone with a gun. You also have folks that want tighter gun control laws, and respect law abiding gun owners, but anytime a mass shooting happens or someone with a gun kills people, it's going to be an uproar.

On the right, there's the let's arm everyone mentality, which seems to feed the idea that if everyone is armed, you'd have less crime and shootings. These folks don't live in Chiraq or Bloodymore, so for them it's just a punchline. There are people who aren't of sound mind to be armed, but any restriction of the 2nd amendment, next thing you know the black helicopters are coming.

Both sides need to come together and talk about a solution, this will require compromise. A word that neither side wants to give.

I don't think that's an accurate assessment. I have yet to hear of any legislative proposal from the left that would outlaw gun ownership altogether. If it exists, please pooint it out to me. The proposals that have been floated from the left side of the aisle were rather reasonable. And they still triggered all kinds of unfounded paranoia on the right. And it that paranoia and a certain amount of denial that stands in the way of any sensible solutions.

I said it before and I'll say it again, all it takes is to hold gun owner wholly accountable and liable for their firearms. If a kid gets to your gun and kills itself or another, you pay the price. If your firearm is used to commit a crime - unless it was and you reported it stolen - that's on you. Any damage caused with your firearm, you will be held to pay both financially and before the criminal justice system. Personal responsibility. What a concept!

[luckytxn 2,264]

Then you have people like me that think the fewer weapons in others hands is best as long as my right to own one is assured.

TBH, the answer is somewhere in the middle. The problem is you'd have to get both sides to sit down and come up with a rational solution. This will never happen because;

On the left, you have folks that don't want anyone to have a gun based on the fact that you never know when someone might snap and kill someone with a gun. You also have folks that want tighter gun control laws, and respect law abiding gun owners, but anytime a mass shooting happens or someone with a gun kills people, it's going to be an uproar.

On the right, there's the let's arm everyone mentality, which seems to feed the idea that if everyone is armed, you'd have less crime and shootings. These folks don't live in Chiraq or Bloodymore, so for them it's just a punchline. There are people who aren't of sound mind to be armed, but any restriction of the 2nd amendment, next thing you know the black helicopters are coming.

Both sides need to come together and talk about a solution, this will require compromise. A word that neither side wants to give.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Then you have people like me that think the fewer weapons in others hands is best as long as my right to own one is assured.

That's not making it any easier, is it?

[Pooky 3,781]

I don't think that's an accurate assessment. I have yet to hear of any legislative proposal from the left that would outlaw gun ownership altogether. If it exists, please pooint it out to me. The proposals that have been floated from the left side of the aisle were rather reasonable. And they still triggered all kinds of unfounded paranoia on the right. And it that paranoia and a certain amount of denial that stands in the way of any sensible solutions.

I said it before and I'll say it again, all it takes is to hold gun owner wholly accountable and liable for their firearms. If a kid gets to your gun and kills itself or another, you pay the price. If your firearm is used to commit a crime - unless it was and you reported it stolen - that's on you. Any damage caused with your firearm, you will be held to pay both financially and before the criminal justice system. Personal responsibility. What a concept!

The problem, even with reasonable proposals, is that few believe that these proposals will be the end of any legislative drive. There is always the feeling that once the first inroad is made, politicians will keep chipping away here and there, until the right to ownership has been completely eroded.

People, with good reason usually, inherently distrust politicians and people in power. Incidentally, that's one of the core principles behind the Second Amendment. Until that changes, there will be no compromise on this issue.

Sadly, with the approval rating of Congress sitting below 10%, that doesn't appear even remotely likely any time soon.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

I think the OP was referring to mass shootings such as Sandy Hook, Columbine etc. I don't know what the definition of a mass shooting is, I just don't recall a murder-suicide or one or two killed and a few others injured being referred to as a mass shooting. What is the technical definition? I'm thinking two or three isn't fitting the definition.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The problem, even with reasonable proposals, is that few believe that these proposals will be the end of any legislative drive. There is always the feeling that once the first inroad is made, politicians will keep chipping away here and there, until the right to ownership has been completely eroded.

People, with good reason usually, inherently distrust politicians and people in power. Incidentally, that's one of the core principles behind the Second Amendment. Until that changes, there will be no compromise on this issue.

Sadly, with the approval rating of Congress sitting below 10%, that doesn't appear even remotely likely any time soon.

But that's unfounded. I think it is fairly clear to anyone observing the political process on the issue that any legislative drive can be contained. It's what has been done for decades now. Why would that all of a sudden change if there was a compromise to close numerous loopholes that exist in the process which is designed to ensure that only those eligible by law may acquire firearms. That whole slippery slope argument is pure paranoia.

[Pooky 3,781]

But that's unfounded. I think it is fairly clear to anyone observing the political process on the issue that any legislative drive can be contained. It's what has been done for decades now. Why would that all of a sudden change if there was a compromise to close numerous loopholes that exist in the process which is designed to ensure that only those eligible by law may acquire firearms. That whole slippery slope argument is pure paranoia.

And yet efforts to ensure that only those eligible by law to vote are viewed as voter suppression.

Faced with such contradictory views on the same basic principle, depending upon the particular subject and the politician's political leaning, is it any surprise that people distrust politicians?

As for using successive legislation to progressively erode the right to bear arms, you only have to took at this President's stated objective to use the PPACA as a stepping stone on the way to a single-payer healthcare system to understand that people might be concerned about this Administration's intent. As for not succeeding in the past, is that due to political restraint, or incompetence?

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

I don't think that's an accurate assessment. I have yet to hear of any legislative proposal from the left that would outlaw gun ownership altogether. If it exists, please pooint it out to me. The proposals that have been floated from the left side of the aisle were rather reasonable. And they still triggered all kinds of unfounded paranoia on the right. And it that paranoia and a certain amount of denial that stands in the way of any sensible solutions.

I said it before and I'll say it again, all it takes is to hold gun owner wholly accountable and liable for their firearms. If a kid gets to your gun and kills itself or another, you pay the price. If your firearm is used to commit a crime - unless it was and you reported it stolen - that's on you. Any damage caused with your firearm, you will be held to pay both financially and before the criminal justice system. Personal responsibility. What a concept!

I was trying to be bi partisan. I think that any gun reduction might be helpful, but as Pooky pointed out, ANY restriction means confiscation.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I think the OP was referring to mass shootings such as Sandy Hook, Columbine etc. I don't know what the definition of a mass shooting is, I just don't recall a murder-suicide or one or two killed and a few others injured being referred to as a mass shooting. What is the technical definition? I'm thinking two or three isn't fitting the definition.

From the source I quoted earlier:

The old FBI definition of Mass Murder (not even the most recent one) is four or more people murdered in one event. It is therefore only logical that a Mass Shooting is four or more people shot in one event.

Here at GrC, we count the number of people shot rather than the number people killed because, "shooting" means "people shot".

For instance, in 2012 Travis Steed and others shot 18 people total. Miraculously, he only killed one. Under the incorrect definition of mass shooting, that event would not be considered a mass shooting! Arguing that 18 people shot during one event is not a mass shooting is absurd.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I was trying to be bi partisan. I think that any gun reduction might be helpful, but as Pooky pointed out, ANY restriction means confiscation.

It does not. Tightening the rules around the acquisition or distribution of firearms has absolutely NOTHING to do with confiscation. Equating the former with the latter is a red herring and nothing else. Even improving the accountability for gun owners and holding them liable for damages caused by their firearms has NOTHING to do with confiscation, One has to subscribe to the paranoid slippery slope argument to arrive at the conclusion that one equals - or even leads to - the other. I'm not subscribing to that argument because it's not a valid argument. It's pure paranoia planted and fanned by the profit interests against sanity and life.

And yet efforts to ensure that only those eligible by law to vote are viewed as voter suppression.

Faced with such contradictory views on the same basic principle, depending upon the particular subject and the politician's political leaning, is it any surprise that people distrust politicians?

As for using successive legislation to progressively erode the right to bear arms, you only have to took at this President's stated objective to use the PPACA as a stepping stone on the way to a single-payer healthcare system to understand that people might be concerned about this Administration's intent. As for not succeeding in the past, is that due to political restraint, or incompetence?

That's neither the subject of this discussion nor is it in any way related or even remotely relevant.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Mr. Big Dog