Florida 'loud music' trial juror: 'I believed he was guilty'

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Then who cares?

White kids shot = 1st degree murder. Black kids shot = self defense or manslaughter.

[GandD 5,966]

White kids shot = 1st degree murder. Black kids shot = self defense or manslaughter.

I'll have to read that one. From what you said, I would also consider that 2nd.

[GandD 5,966]

White kids shot = 1st degree murder. Black kids shot = self defense or manslaughter.

He was charged with 1st degree, just like this guy. No valid comparison until we know the verdict.

And she was black.

Edited February 19, 2014 by GandD

[DavenRoxy 1,073]

You are lucky that moron with pants down to his knees did not get all sideways with you

Kinda... he was 9th or 10th grade, and I was in uniform. Might have given me a "perceived" advantage. I remember years ago being in line behind another youngster like him in McDonald's, and a security guard walked up behind us, and told him to pull his pants up in the restaurant. Kid gave the guard a look like he wanted to mouth off, but the guard said, "Pull 'em up or get out of the store!" Kid pulled them up until he got his food and got back outside. I took the time as I was leaving to kindly thank the security guard.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

He should be convicted of 2nd degree at the very least. I'm not sure but isn't manslaughter like you didn't mean to kill someone? He fired 10 shots into a vehicle full of teens, he was trying to kill someone.

I think that 3 of the jurors thought there was a gun or at least a threat to his life.

There are two kinds of manslaughter Voluntary and involuntary

White kids shot = 1st degree murder. Black kids shot = self defense or manslaughter.

Bull shat

We already talked about Mr. Battle

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

The kids in Arkansas were white.

If you are going to attempt to be smarmy you at least have to have your facts correct. I'm not making comparisons to the two cases for race, only for the first degree charge and the reasoning behind it... But as you are bringing it up: In the other killing I was talking about the girl that was killed was black.. The two men committing the crimes are of different races and both received a 1st degree murder charge (though the second guy did not face charges of firing at the other people in the car).

This works great for those who see racism everywhere: If the second man is convicted it is because the jury is racist and giving a different verdict because he is black. If he walks its because they don't care about a black victim. No matter what the outcome it is racist...

Edited February 19, 2014 by OnMyWayID

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

Nah, they were deadlocked on the murder charge. They couldn't get him on 1st, 2nd, or manslaughter.

Here is a CBS story with a very very respected trial lawyer, who says the mistake is the state over charged him. which is what we have said all along. The state is going to re-try on 1st degree.

The media furor both in this case and GZ case and the pressure from cival rights group is the reason the prosecutors are making these mistakes.

He has already gotten 60 years, it is insane to try him on 1st degree again

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/did-prosecutors-overcharge-accused-loud-music-shooter/

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Prosecutors may have an easier time proving that Michael Dunn “lost it” when he shot at a carfull of teenagers rather than showing he intended to kill as they seek to re-try him, a Florida defense attorney and former prosecutor tells CBS News’ Crimesider.

Dunn, 47, was convicted of three counts of second-degree attempted murder after prosecutors said he shot into a Dodge Durango in which Jordan Davis and three friends were riding following an argument over loud music the night of Nov. 23, 2012. Davis was killed.

Jurors could not agree on a verdict on the first-degree murder charge Dunn faced in the death of Davis, 17. The panel could have also opted to convict Dunn of lesser included offenses, including second-degree murder and manslaughter, in Davis’ death.

\\\

Michael Dunn prosecutors ask for retrial

Dunn argued that he shot in self-defense after Davis threatened to kill him, brandished what Dunn thought was a shotgun, and got out of the car, telling the jury it was “life or death” as he took the stand. Davis' friends who were in the SUV testified that Davis didn't threaten Dunn and never got out of the SUV.

Prosecutors have said they intend to re-try Michael Dunn on a first-degree murder charge. But according to Mitch Stone, a Florida defense attorney and former prosecutor, charging Dunn with first-degree murder in the first place was a “mistake.” A second-degree murder charge, he said, might be a better approach on re-trial.

Dunn’s mindset was “more along the lines of overreacting to a situation as opposed to, “I want to kill these guys for playing loud music,” the evidence showed, according to Stone.

Prosecutors aimed to show that Dunn thought about what as he was doing as he fired ten shots at a car parked next to him at a Jacksonville gas station. Moments earlier, he had asked the occupants of the car to turn down what he described as “ridiculously loud music,” and then said he heard threats coming from the car.

“When you explain it, “Hey, he lost it – he wants to tell you he acted in self-defense, but the reality is he had some words with the kid and he got pissed off and shot him – it wasn’t that he planned it, he reacted in a way that is just not acceptable under the circumstances. I think a jury would have a lot easier time wrapping their minds around it,” Stone said.

Play VIDEO

Watch: Michael Dunn takes the stand in "loud music" murder trial

Prosecutors argued that Dunn intended to kill. A medical examiner said the angle of the bullets that pierced Davis’ body showed that he was sitting in the car when he was shot, though Dunn said he saw Davis leave the car.

"The defendant intended to kill any and all of them," said prosecutor Erin Wolfson during closing arguments. "He wasn't shooting just to scare them off, he was shooting to kill."

But pre-meditation in the case may be a tough sell for jurors, Stone said.

“When you have to start explaining the reasons why this is first degree murder, what went through his mind in the decision to shoot the gun in the vehicle, then you raise a lot of questions,” Stone said. “If he was thinking he had to kill that kid, what objectively would lead him to that? That plays right into self-defense.”

Re-trying Dunn on a second-degree murder charge would also mean a six-person jury as opposed to a twelve-person jury, Stone said. It may be easier to convince six people that Dunn wasn’t acting in self- defense, he said.

The state “could make that decision” to re-try Dunn on a second-degree murder charge, but as of now is planning on re-trying him on the first-degree murder charge alone, prosecutor Angela Corey said at a press conference following the trial.

When asked by a reporter whether it was a mistake to try Dunn on first-degree as opposed to second-degree murder charges, Corey replied, “absolutely not.”

“Ten times out of ten, when someone fires ten shots into a car full of unarmed teenagers, we will file first degree murder and attempted first degree charges,” Corey told reporters, addressing the issue of a possible "overcharge." “Pre-meditation doesn’t require a specific length of time, and that’s the aspect on which we rely to file these charges.”

In Florida, defense attorneys can file a motion to dismiss if they feel their client has been incorrectly charged or overcharged, Corey said. They’re also able to request a “Stand your Ground” hearing, under which a judge would determine whether their client was immune under Florida’s “Stand your Ground” law – a motion that was never filed in the case, she said.

Under “Stand your Ground,” a person is legally justified in responding with deadly force when they believe their life is in danger.

Jurors also had the option to convict Dunn of lesser charges including second-degree murder if they felt prosecutors hadn’t proved their case for first-degree, Corey said.

Corey said the state intended to re-try Dunn for first degree even though sentencing guidelines for his attempted murder convictions require that he spend at least 60 years in prison.

“Justin for Jordan Davis is as important as it is for any of our other victims,” Corey said.

Dunn was also found guilty of firing a weapon into a vehicle, for which he faces a possible additional 15 years, prosecutors said.

The defense could also choose to appeal Dunn’s four convictions, she said.

Under “Stand your Ground,” a key question for jurors to decide during any re-trial is whether Dunn perceived his life to be in danger before he opened fire, Stone said. But "Stand your Ground" can be problematic, he said, because it allows for people to react with deadly force before violence actually occurs as long as they believe the danger is real.

"The problem [with Stand your Ground] is anyone can shoot anyone and say, 'Well, that guy was threatening me,'" Stone said.

[GandD 5,966]

If you are going to attempt to be smarmy you at least have to have your facts correct. I'm not making comparisons to the two cases for race, only for the first degree charge and the reasoning behind it... But as you are bringing it up: In the other killing I was talking about the girl that was killed was black.. The two men committing the crimes are of different races and both received a 1st degree murder charge (though the second guy did not face charges of firing at the other people in the car).

This works great for those who see racism everywhere: If the second man is convicted it is because the jury is racist and giving a different verdict because he is black. If he walks its because they don't care about a black victim. No matter what the outcome it is racist...

FTR, this is the teen that was killed in Arkansas:

This is who shot her:

Now I know why no one cares...........

I would say 2nd degree in this case too.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

Not only does nobody care about that case... but when I attempted to make at topic about it, it became about the parents of the girl and how she never should have been pulling that prank. And then it became about George Zimmerman somehow. Ridiculous.

And actually, if the victim HAD been white and the shooter black... I bet someone else would have rushed to post that story before I did.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Penny Lane

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

Maven posted a link to "felony murder". Anything qualifying as felony murder is considered 1st degree as well. IMO, none of those qualified in this case either.

felony murder - I was about to type "What in the heck is that" but then remembered that I could click another tab and google it

The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder in two ways. First, when an offender kills accidentally or without specific intent to kill in the commission of a felony, the offender can be charged with murder. Second, it makes any participant in such a felony criminally liable for any deaths that occur during or in furtherance of that felony.

So if you are committing another unrelated crime (not the murder itself) and kill someone it can be a felony murder.. Still not seeing either of these two qualifying..

Edited February 19, 2014 by OnMyWayID

[GandD 5,966]

felony murder - I was about to type "What in the heck is that" but then remembered that I could click another tab and google it

The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder in two ways. First, when an offender kills accidentally or without specific intent to kill in the commission of a felony, the offender can be charged with murder. Second, it makes any participant in such a felony criminally liable for any deaths that occur during or in furtherance of that felony.

So if you are committing another unrelated crime (not the murder itself) and kill someone it can be a felony murder.. Still not seeing either of these two qualifying..

Here's how Florida defines it.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statuTes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

[GandD 5,966]

and

The contemplation has to be before the incident. Getting mad during an altercation should not be counted as premeditated.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

Here is a CBS story with a very very respected trial lawyer, who says the mistake is the state over charged him. which is what we have said all along. The state is going to re-try on 1st degree.

The media furor both in this case and GZ case and the pressure from cival rights group is the reason the prosecutors are making these mistakes.

He has already gotten 60 years, it is insane to try him on 1st degree again

They try him again because some technicality could occur that would invalidate the first convictions..

I would bet they overcharged him in the first place to try and extract a plea to avoid a trial - there was probably political pressure to charge him with the max as well - and they could take the chance knowing they had him for the other three.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

Here's how Florida defines it.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statuTes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

Thanks..

I thought I was understanding it until I hit:

(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

 Carjacking,

(m) Home-invasion robbery,

(n) Aggravated stalking,

(o) Murder of another human being,

(p) Aggravated fleeing or eluding with serious bodily injury or death,

That part (o) seems pretty broad

[GandD 5,966]

Thanks..

I thought I was understanding it until I hit:

(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

 Carjacking,

(m) Home-invasion robbery,

(n) Aggravated stalking,

(o) Murder of another human being,

(p) Aggravated fleeing or eluding with serious bodily injury or death,

That part (o) seems pretty broad

I think that means if you kill someone while attempting to murder someone else. Like if you shoot someone and miss and hit someone else. While that is not premeditated, it counts as felony murder and therefore 1st degree as it occurred while you were attempting to murder someone else.

"When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, "

Edited February 19, 2014 by GandD