Federal Judge Unlikely To Strike Down SF’s Law Banning High-Capacity Ammo Magazines

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I'd agree with all of that, except the first part. I do think the fact that there are so many guns in this country plays some role in the high murder rate. How much is hard to say I guess.

But why has the murder rate actually gone down while the number of guns has increased?

[Peikko 1,575]

Please provide me a link where the statistics state this. The statistics, not the study. It's not fact at all, there are 300 + million guns in this country and the staggering majority are not used for criminal purposes. But I am certainly open minded and will be happy to look at the statistical evidence, otherwise it is just opinion, not fact.

If what you are stating is your opinion, I respect that even though I disagree.

I provided the studies, the statistics behind the studies are available. Either you are interested in the widespread academic studies that prove this to be a fact and pursue it or you are not and you will not. I am not going to keep providing them for you to tell me you don't agree with it. It's there, it's known, it's available. If you prefer to be one of those who think that all that needs to be said is that it's 'up to the individual' to make that choice, then so be it. I would prefer my gun nuts to be responsible enough to acknowledge that unless you are interested in guns, have the time and inclination to look after them and practice using them, it's better not to have one as having one increases everyone's risks that preventable death or injury will result from the discharge of that weaponry. It's not rocket science, it's pretty simple really. Want a gun? Sure, go get one, but go out, practice, look after it, clean it and learn how to store it, otherwise, forget it.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I provided the studies, the statistics behind the studies are available. Either you are interested in the widespread academic studies that prove this to be a fact and pursue it or you are not and you will not. I am not going to keep providing them for you to tell me you don't agree with it. It's there, it's known, it's available. If you prefer to be one of those who think that all that needs to be said is that it's 'up to the individual' to make that choice, then so be it. I would prefer my gun nuts to be responsible enough to acknowledge that unless you are interested in guns, have the time and inclination to look after them and practice using them, it's better not to have one as having one increases everyone's risks that preventable death or injury will result from the discharge of that weaponry. It's not rocket science, it's pretty simple really. Want a gun? Sure, go get one, but go out, practice, look after it, clean it and learn how to store it, otherwise, forget it.

Stop dodging and show me the statistics. You made the claim.

[Peikko 1,575]

Stop dodging and show me the statistics. You made the claim.

Provided in the past, look them up or not, your choice. Keep dodging the logical consequences of allowing people who have no interest in guns owning them and leaving them around the place, your choice too.

[Karee 4,191]

But why has the murder rate actually gone down while the number of guns has increased?

If I had to guess, I'd say it probably has more to do with the massive prison sentences they hand out nowadays. I think the the rise in gun ownership is just coincidental. I think I saw in one of Mr. BD's threads a while back that while the number of guns has increased, the number of people owning them has not.

Probably alot of people like our friend from Vermont, that have a gun for every occasion. One gun for going to take a leak, another gun for going #2, a different gun for shagging the wife, another for mowing the lawn, etc. etc.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Provided in the past, look them up or not, your choice. Keep dodging the logical consequences of allowing people who have no interest in guns owning them and leaving them around the place, your choice too.

Now you sound like someone else here. We both know you can't provide the statistics because they don't exist.

[Peikko 1,575]

Now you sound like someone else here. We both know you can't provide the statistics because they don't exist.

If you say so.

[luckytxn 2,265]

My positive quota's have been used so have to actually post.

Thumbs up!

Now you sound like someone else here. We both know you can't provide the statistics because they don't exist.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

If I had to guess, I'd say it probably has more to do with the massive prison sentences they hand out nowadays. I think the the rise in gun ownership is just coincidental. I think I saw in one of Mr. BD's threads a while back that while the number of guns has increased, the number of people owning them has not.

Probably alot of people like our friend from Vermont, that have a gun for every occasion. One gun for going to take a leak, another gun for going #2, a different gun for shagging the wife, another for mowing the lawn, etc. etc.

I remember that one too. Do you think that the threat of a prison sentence has much effect on the murder rate? I don't think that the death penalty had any effect on the crime rate. We're not exactly always dealing with rational people. These gang bangers shooting each other could care less. The only way I think it would have an effect is if they started executing them, or public executions as they do in less civilized parts of the world. There has to be an extremely high chance of horrible consequences, and for most that probably wouldn't be a deterrent.

If you say so.

Fact.

[Peikko 1,575]

http://www.dshs.wa.gov/pdf/ca/gunsafe.pdf

http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/safetyfirstaid/a/gun_safety.htm

http://www.nationwidechildrens.org/cirp-gun-safety

http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

[Karee 4,191]

I remember that one too. Do you think that the threat of a prison sentence has much effect on the murder rate? I don't think that the death penalty had any effect on the crime rate. We're not exactly always dealing with rational people. These gang bangers shooting each other could care less. The only way I think it would have an effect is if they started executing them, or public executions as they do in less civilized parts of the world. There has to be an extremely high chance of horrible consequences, and for most that probably wouldn't be a deterrent.

Fact.

I don't think the threat of prisons sentences has much to do with anything. However, the actual prison sentences do. Hard to re-offend when you're doing 70 years.

The Federal govt. did away with parole entirely in 1986/1987. I think alot of states are taking a no B.S. attitude when it comes to sentencing as well.

[luckytxn 2,265]

This is weak. You are showing pick and choose stats. To show that owning weapons in the home is bad then lets compare all stats. Such as each one they show the suicides by gun. Was it the gun that made that suicide. Would the suicide have happened if other means were available. Now show real stats or you look a fool.

http://www.dshs.wa.gov/pdf/ca/gunsafe.pdf

http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/safetyfirstaid/a/gun_safety.htm

http://www.nationwidechildrens.org/cirp-gun-safety

http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

[spookyturtle 9,466]

http://www.dshs.wa.gov/pdf/ca/gunsafe.pdf

http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/safetyfirstaid/a/gun_safety.htm

http://www.nationwidechildrens.org/cirp-gun-safety

http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

Those links give lots of tips about gun safety which a responsible gun owner should follow. They also give stats on the number of children killed or injured by guns. I'm sure that their statistics could probably be traced to some official source. But that doesn't prove that more people are hurt by their own guns than guns that prevented crime. That was your original claim. I didn't dispute that this happens and never claimed that it didn't.

There are part of the claims being made that there is no way to prove. 25% of gun owners with children don't keep their guns locked up. That's pulling a number out of thin air. Enough of that part of the claim.

I can't provide a number for how many crimes were prevented by gun ownership, those statistics don't exist either. Statistics don't exist to make this argument fact on either side, and that was my point. There have been numerous stories posted here of a legal gun owner preventing a crime too. But that doesn't prove that most guns are used to prevent crimes either.

Opinions, not facts.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I don't think the threat of prisons sentences has much to do with anything. However, the actual prison sentences do. Hard to re-offend when you're doing 70 years.

The Federal govt. did away with parole entirely in 1986/1987. I think alot of states are taking a no B.S. attitude when it comes to sentencing as well.

Very true! We don't have enough prison space to lock them all up!. I think we do need more no nonsense sentencing in many of these cases.

[Peikko 1,575]

Those links give lots of tips about gun safety which a responsible gun owner should follow. They also give stats on the number of children killed or injured by guns. I'm sure that their statistics could probably be traced to some official source. But that doesn't prove that more people are hurt by their own guns than guns that prevented crime. That was your original claim. I didn't dispute that this happens and never claimed that it didn't.

There are part of the claims being made that there is no way to prove. 25% of gun owners with children don't keep their guns locked up. That's pulling a number out of thin air. Enough of that part of the claim.

I can't provide a number for how many crimes were prevented by gun ownership, those statistics don't exist either. Statistics don't exist to make this argument fact on either side, and that was my point. There have been numerous stories posted here of a legal gun owner preventing a crime too. But that doesn't prove that most guns are used to prevent crimes either.

Opinions, not facts.

As I said, you don't like the academic studies by experts so you just dismiss it. That's fine. Even without that common sense SHOULD tell you that people who do not have an interest in guns should not keep one in the home. Your own experience with gun safety should tell you, that having a gun and not practicing with it, cleaning it and keeping it with a minimum number of safety procedures in place is more likely to result in an accident to the gun owner and his friends and family than to a criminal. It's common sense but woe betide you actually say something like that just in case some gun aficionado sees you saying it and claiming that must mean you don't believe in second amendment rights. The cowardice is palpable, the contortions to prove something that makes no sense hilarious. Carry on. It's entertaining.

Edited February 16, 2014 by The Truth™