Federal Judge Unlikely To Strike Down SF’s Law Banning High-Capacity Ammo Magazines

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

A federal judge appeared inclined at a hearing in San Francisco today to turn down a request to block a city law banning possession of high-capacity ammunition magazines, but deferred making a ruling.

U.S. District Judge William Alsup told lawyers for a group of gun owners that they did not appear to have proved that magazines automatically reloading 10 or more bullets were needed to support the constitutional Second Amendment right to own guns.

“A large number of these big magazines are used by drug dealers and criminals. I see precious few cases where a homeowner has warded off an intruder with 10 or bullets,” Alsup said at the start of the hearing.

“You have zero evidence that these oversize magazines are used for common self-defense,” the judge told the attorneys for a group of retired police officers and four individuals who asked for a preliminary injunction blocking the law.

http://sfappeal.com/2014/02/federal-judge-unlikely-to-strike-down-sfs-law-banning-high-capacity-ammo-magazines/

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Good news. We need it struck down at higher levels. You have to LOSE cases before you win them. Heller and McDonald were "lost" several times in their advance to the SCOTUS

[Peikko 1,575]

Who needs evidence? Certainly not gun aficionados. It's demonstrably true, from expert testimony, that having a gun in the home is more likely to be used to cause an injury or death to someone in that home than to prevent a criminal offense against the gun owner. Despite that, most gun aficionados want to play the roulette wheel with the odds stacked against them. Clearly evidence is not something that gun aficionados place any store in.

Edited February 15, 2014 by The Truth™

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Who needs evidence? Certainly not gun aficionados. It's demonstrably true, from expert testimony, that having a gun in the home is more likely to be used to cause an injury or death to someone in that home than to prevent a criminal offense against the gun owner. Despite that, most gun aficionados want to play the roulette wheel with the odds stacked against them. Clearly evidence is not something that gun aficionados place any store in.

The major flaw in that is there are no statistics to prove this.

[novedsac 355]

The major flaw in that is there are no statistics to prove this.

Actually, there's an overwhelming abundance of statistical information over many years that does provide proof. For a sampling:

Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, Lee RK, Banton JG. Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home. J. Trauma 1998 Aug, 45(2):263-7.

Hemenway D, Miller M, Azrael D. Gun use in the United States: Results from two national surveys. Injury Prevention 2000; 6:263-267

Hemenway, D, Barber C, Miller, M. Unintentional firearm deaths: a comparison of other-inflicted and self-inflicted shootings. Accident Analysis & Prevention. 2010; 42:1184-8.

There is additional work showing demonstrating that the gun lobby's claims of guns in the home being used successfully for self-defense are grossly overestimated.

Sure, there are some examples where a gun has thwarted a home intrusion or saved a life, but not compelling enough to overcome the tragedies that have come about from accidents or criminals stealing a firearm from a home and later using it in a crime.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Please provide links to the FBI, Dept. Of Justice or a State Agency which shows how many times a gun owners gun has been used against them or their families vs the number of times guns have prevented a crime. I prefer to stick to facts, as in actual numbers, etc. Thanks.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Please provide links to the FBI, Dept. Of Justice or a State Agency which shows how many times a gun owners gun has been used against them or their families vs the number of times guns have prevented a crime. I prefer to stick to facts, as in actual numbers, etc. Thanks.

How did Gary manage to hack Spook's account?

[spookyturtle 9,466]

How did Gary manage to hack Spook's account?

I proved Gary wrong with facts. I ask for the facts to back up the claims made here. Gary can't provide any as we all know. Show me the hard numbers and I'll admit I was wrong.

[novedsac 355]

Please provide links to the FBI, Dept. Of Justice or a State Agency which shows how many times a gun owners gun has been used against them or their families vs the number of times guns have prevented a crime. I prefer to stick to facts, as in actual numbers, etc. Thanks.

Scientific research presented in peer reviewed journals by experts in world-renowned academic institutions trumps government interpretation by public employees any day of the week in terms of rigor and credibility. They already present the numbers and facts as well as where they obtained the information - you probably haven't even looked.

Find your own links to FBI, DOJ or State Agency numbers, if they even mine the data to answer the question at hand. It's not my job or intention to convince you. I only pointed out that your claim that there isn't any statistical evidence is wrong - there is an abundance of data, over decades, from extremely reliable sources, many of which do cull from raw data in local government agencies, which is where the bulk of primary reporting comes from. FBI is not the primary source of data on home shootings - not their jurisdiction, for the most part. Not my problem if you don't like the source of the information.

Edited February 16, 2014 by novedsac

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

There is additional work showing demonstrating that the gun lobby's claims of guns in the home being used successfully for self-defense are grossly overestimated.

Fact is, the only comprehensive study done (Kleck) was undeniably flawed and the results have never been replicated. However, the NRA-ILA will continue to cite the study again and again.

A study performed for the US Department of Justice concluded the so-called Defensive Gun Uses, or DGU's, exceeded the universe of reported gunshot cases. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Edited February 16, 2014 by The Postmaster

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Scientific research presented in peer reviewed journals by experts in world-renowned academic institutions trumps government interpretation by public employees any day of the week in terms of rigor and credibility. They already present the numbers and facts as well as where they obtained the information - you probably haven't even looked.

Find your own links to FBI, DOJ or State Agency numbers, if they even mine the data to answer the question at hand. It's not my job or intention to convince you. I only pointed out that your claim that there isn't any statistical evidence is wrong - there is an abundance of data, over decades, from extremely reliable sources, many of which do cull from raw data in local government agencies, which is where the bulk of primary reporting comes from. FBI is not the primary source of data on home shootings - not their jurisdiction, for the most part. Not my problem if you don't like the source of the information.

You made the claim, now show me that statistics, otherwise it's opinion. I already know that there are no statistics to support your claim. Please provide me a link that shows how many gun owners had their own guns used against them vs a gun being used to prevent a crime. Since you claim it's a fact and well known, please provided the links for the group to see for themselves. Show me the statistical evidence from a credible source that compiles crime statistics. I mentioned a few credible sources which would be acceptable. Show me some official state statistics. I live in MA, show me the stats for my state. Or yours. There must be a Mass.gov site that has the info, no?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The major flaw in that is there are no statistics to prove this.

Wouldn't matter. Have any of you read the rulings on gun rights?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You made the claim, now show me that statistics, otherwise it's opinion. I already know that there are no statistics to support your claim. Please provide me a link that shows how many gun owners had their own guns used against them vs a gun being used to prevent a crime. Since you claim it's a fact and well known, please provided the links for the group to see for themselves. Show me the statistical evidence from a credible source that compiles crime statistics. I mentioned a few credible sources which would be acceptable. Show me some official state statistics. I live in MA, show me the stats for my state. Or yours. There must be a Mass.gov site that has the info, no?

Spooky, these arguments are a waste of time. They are irrelevent and a diversion.

Keeping and bearing arms is a RIGHT and shall not be infringed. Stick to the basics, no need to be diverted by BS.

Sometimes, but not always, they can understand this...

What percentage of black people need to be involved in crime before we should curtail the rights of all black people? See? It does not matter. If 80% of blacks are criminals you cannot infringe the rights of the 20% who are not.

If 80% of Gay men ad pedophiles, the other 20% cannot have their rights taken away.

The only statistic that matters is the 2nd Amendment.

I have been very pleased that recent rulings supporting the 2nd Amendment have been very clear in this. There is no "argument". It is a RIGHT. Period.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Fact is, the only comprehensive study done (Kleck) was undeniably flawed and the results have never been replicated. However, the NRA-ILA will continue to cite the study again and again.

A study performed for the US Department of Justice concluded the so-called Defensive Gun Uses, or DGU's, exceeded the universe of reported gunshot cases. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Fact is, it doesn't matter.

It is a RIGHT.

Have you read the 7th Circuit and 9th Circuit rulings? You really should. They are very clear about this in detail.

The ILA is the "Institute for Legislative Action" The division you need to concern yourself with is the "NRA Firearms Civil Rights Defense Fund" A 501 c 3 corporation (your donation is tax deductible) They are the ones making the progress now.

Federal legislation was shut down years ago by the ILA. 20 years since the last federal gun laws and those have been repealed. State legislation has run its course and the remaining states will have it shoved up their popah. As CA and HI just did.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Spooky, these arguments are a waste of time. They are irrelevent and a diversion.

Keeping and bearing arms is a RIGHT and shall not be infringed. Stick to the basics, no need to be diverted by BS.

Sometimes, but not always, they can understand this...

What percentage of black people need to be involved in crime before we should curtail the rights of all black people? See? It does not matter. If 80% of blacks are criminals you cannot infringe the rights of the 20% who are not.

If 80% of Gay men ad pedophiles, the other 20% cannot have their rights taken away.

The only statistic that matters is the 2nd Amendment.

I have been very pleased that recent rulings supporting the 2nd Amendment have been very clear in this. There is no "argument". It is a RIGHT. Period.

I was just sticking to the claim that was made and asked for proof. I agree, the Second Amendment gives the right to keep and bear arms. And because some people abuse their rights mine shouldn't be taken away.