Concealed Carry in Illinois

[spookyturtle 9,465]

I am starting this thread to try and get factual information out there on this subject. I have no intent to start a flame war or call anyone out on their beliefs or rights regardless of where you stand on the gun issue. As a gun owner, I feel education and accurate information is important to all of us, perhaps even more so to those who are anti-gun and want to take away or restrict Second Amendment rights. An educated public trumps ignorance every time.

Illinois is currently accepting applications for concealed carry permits as it begins implementing the US Court of Appeals ruling. No permits have been issued as the process began in January, but the first permits should be issued in the next couple of months.

This is what I have found on the subject, particularly concerning someone using their out of state CC permit in Illinois in the past and immediate time frame. I found no information even remotely suggesting that someone from out of state's CC permit is currently being honored. I find no information that an Illinois resident can go to another state, get a CC permit and go back home and be legal at the current time or in the past.

Personally, I would be surprised if all of the following information is incorrect, especially the State Police site which oversees the licensing process. Please feel free to add your thoughts or any information to substantiate or refute the links I have posted.

This is from the Illinois State Police site, about halfway down the list of questions:

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm

I have a "conceal and carry" permit issued by another state. Is the permit recognized in Illinois?

No. Illinois does not recognize “conceal and carry” permits from any state. Both non-residents and residents are subject to Illinois’ law, restrictions, and penalties. For a list of other commonly asked questions on transporting firearms in Illinois, please refer to the Transport Your Firearm Legally brochure available on our website.

And here, at the top of the page:

https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/public/home.aspx

On July 9, 2013, Public Act 98-63, the Firearm Concealed Carry Act became state law (430 ILCS 66). This law requires an Illinois Concealed Carry License to carry a concealed firearm in Illinois.

And from this site:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/illinois.pdf

Illinois does not honor any other states Permit/License.

A Chicago Tribune article on the 7th US Court of Appeals Ruling that required Illinois to allow carrying of firearms outside the home.

http://articles.chic...todd-vandermyde

And this from a pro gun site:

http://www.thetrutha...aled-carry-ban/

And last but not least, the actual US Court of Appeals 7th Circuit Ruling:

http://journalistsresource.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/guns-CST-121212.pdf

Edited February 7, 2014 by spookyturtle

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Thanks for the information Spookster.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Now, if we can only find a grocery store that's employs 1000 people, we're golden.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

So judging from the links spooks provided, we can't give credit to CC for the decrease in Chicago crime - not yet anyway. So what's behind it?

From an article in the New York Times in Juneof last year:

In recent months, as many as 400 officers a day, working overtime, have been dispatched to just 20 small zones deemed the city’s most dangerous. The police say they are tamping down retaliatory shootings between gang factions by using a comprehensive analysis of the city’s tens of thousands of suspected gang members, the turf they claim and their rivalries. The police are also focusing on more than 400 people they have identified as having associations that make them the most likely to be involved in a murder, as a victim or an offender.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/us/chicago-homicides-fall-by-34-percent-so-far-this-year.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Again, this decrease in crime was long before any CC laws were implemented (which just happened last month)...

Edited February 7, 2014 by Penny Lane

[spookyturtle 9,465]

If the information I have posted is incorrect or if I have misunderstood it, it should be easy to provide links to the correct information from a credible source. I used information from Illinois which I think should be extremely reliable, if not, I am happy to learn more. Refuting what I have posted and proving it incorrect shouldn't require a lengthy reponse. A few sentences and a few links that trump what I have found should suffice. Illinois either recognized/recognizes out of state CC permits or they do not. Tens of thousand of Illinois residents rushed out the day after the ruling in December of 2012 or they did not. My research turned up nothing on the subject, but I'm happy to take a look at any credible source proving it is true.

I was actually hoping to ignore the claim that CC is responsible for the reduction in crime until after it is indisputably proven that CC has existed in Illinois since December of 2012 which would mean that only out of state permits would have been recognized since we are still waiting for Illinois to issue it's first batch of permits.

Perhaps the out of state CC being ok in Illinois is based on this:

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

• Illinois allows residents of other states carry a concealed firearm in their vehicle if they are can legally carry a firearm in public under the laws of their state or territory of residence and are not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under federal law.

This info is also available on the State Police site. But note that it does not allow one to CC on their person in public. I just want to make sure I point this out so that it isn't taken to mean that CC is ok.

Edited February 7, 2014 by spookyturtle

[spookyturtle 9,465]

This is the second question on the Concealed Carry Frequently asked section of the Illinois State Police website:

https://www.isp.state.il.us/appriss/ccw/ccw-faq.cfm

Who needs an Illinois Concealed Carry License?

Everyone who wants to carry a concealed firearm on his/her person in Illinois is required to have an Illinois Concealed Carry License except current peace officers and retired police officers eligible under a federally approved retired officer concealed carry program such as the Illinois Retired Officer Concealed Carry (IROCC) Program. Retired officers may be eligible to carry under either the IROCC Program or the Firearm Concealed Carry Act (430 ILCS 66).

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I am starting this thread to try and get factual information out there on this subject. I have no intent to start a flame war or call anyone out on their beliefs or rights regardless of where you stand on the gun issue. As a gun owner, I feel education and accurate information is important to all of us, perhaps even more so to those who are anti-gun and want to take away or restrict Second Amendment rights. An educated public trumps ignorance every time.

Illinois is currently accepting applications for concealed carry permits as it begins implementing the US Court of Appeals ruling. No permits have been issued as the process began in January, but the first permits should be issued in the next couple of months.

This is what I have found on the subject, particularly concerning someone using their out of state CC permit in Illinois in the past and immediate time frame. I found no information even remotely suggesting that someone from out of state's CC permit is currently being honored. I find no information that an Illinois resident can go to another state, get a CC permit and go back home and be legal at the current time or in the past.

Personally, I would be surprised if all of the following information is incorrect, especially the State Police site which oversees the licensing process. Please feel free to add your thoughts or any information to substantiate or refute the links I have posted.

This is from the Illinois State Police site, about halfway down the list of questions:

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm

I have a "conceal and carry" permit issued by another state. Is the permit recognized in Illinois?

No. Illinois does not recognize “conceal and carry” permits from any state. Both non-residents and residents are subject to Illinois’ law, restrictions, and penalties. For a list of other commonly asked questions on transporting firearms in Illinois, please refer to the Transport Your Firearm Legally brochure available on our website.

And here, at the top of the page:

https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/public/home.aspx

On July 9, 2013, Public Act 98-63, the Firearm Concealed Carry Act became state law (430 ILCS 66). This law requires an Illinois Concealed Carry License to carry a concealed firearm in Illinois.

And from this site:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/illinois.pdf

Illinois does not honor any other states Permit/License.

A Chicago Tribune article on the 7th US Court of Appeals Ruling that required Illinois to allow carrying of firearms outside the home.

http://articles.chic...todd-vandermyde

And this from a pro gun site:

http://www.thetrutha...aled-carry-ban/

And last but not least, the actual US Court of Appeals 7th Circuit Ruling:

http://journalistsresource.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/guns-CST-121212.pdf

Thanks Spooky

You are correct, Under the law as implemented IL will not honor other states licenses

The 7th Circuit Court ruling strick down IL's ban on carrying firearms. The day after the ruling there was NO LAW which was enforceable to prevent ANYone from carrying conceaeld handguns. On that day IL became exactly like Vermont. But there is more...

The two cases appealed (combined in one) came from IL residents being arrested while carrying concealed handguns pursuant to licenses issued by other states. The court vacated those charges and states that IL CANNOT impose a blanket prohibition on carrying concealed. The two people charged with a crime were acquitted as the law they were charged under was ruled unconstitutional.

Again,,,at that tiome Il had NO law under which it could prosecute ANYONE for carrying a concealed handgun. The court gave the state 180 days to develop its own law and gave directions on how that should be done. It specifically ruled out a "may issue" system such as NY and MA have.

On February 13, 2013 the State Attorney General advised that IL would not be appealing the case, would create its own CC law following the orders of the court and UNTIL THE TIME IL LICENSES WERE ISSUED would not prosecute anyone carrying a concealed handgun pursuant to a license from another state,

Now that thay have their OWN licenses, IL will not recognize other states licenses. For the period which was questioned "How could CC reduce crime in 2013 when the licenses are only NOW being issued?" THAT is the answer.

This is a common condition. The law which resulkted in the Roe v. Wade decision is STILL the law. It canno tbe enforced. If Roe v. Wade was overturned tomorrow, abortion would be illegal in TX immediately. Your health insurance is probably in violation of the ACA, but enforcement of the ACA has been delayed for a year. The court stayed its order for 180 days for Il to make its on law but what would be the point of prosecuting anyone else under a law ruled unconstitutional?

From December 12, 2012 until the new licenses began being issued anyone in IL with a CC license could carry concealed. THAT is how it reduced crime in Chicago. The crime rate will go down moe as more residents are licensed. Some people are not happoy with reduced crime as it works against their agenda of violating the rights of minorities. They just need to get over it.

Here are some interesting quotes from the ruling. There are three more gun law cases in the hopper for the SCOTUS, 1 this year, 2 next year.

_____________________________________________________________________

Twenty-first century Illinois has no hostile Indians. But a Chicagoan is a good deal more likely to be attacked on a sidewalk in a rough neighborhood than in his apartment on the 35th floor of the Park Tower. A woman who is being stalked or has obtained a protective order against a violent ex-husband is more vulnerable to being attacked while walking to or from her home than when inside. She has a stronger self-defense claim to be allowed to carry a gun in public than the resident of a fancy apartment building (complete with doorman) has a claim to sleep with a loaded gun under her mattress. But Illinois wants to deny the former claim,while compelled by

McDonald to honor the latter. That creates an arbitrary difference. To confine the right to be armed to the home is to divorce the Second Amendment from the right of self-defense described in

Heller and McDonald

It is not a property right a right to kill a house guest who in a fit of aesthetic fury tries to slash your copy of Norman Rockwell’s painting Santa with Elves. That is not self-defense, and this case like Heller and McDonald is just about self-defense.A gun is a potential danger to more people if carried in public than just kept in the home. But the other side of this coin is that knowing that many law-abiding citizens are walking the streets armed may make criminals timid.

In sum, the empirical literature on the effects of allowing the carriage of guns in public fails to establish a pragmatic defense of the Illinois law. Bishop,

supra

, at 922–23; Mark V. Tushnet,

Out of Range: Why the Constitution Can’t End the Battle over Guns

110–11(2007). Anyway the Supreme Court made clear in

Heller

that it wasn’t going to make the right to bear arms depend on casualty counts. 554 U.S. at 636.If the mere possibility that allowing guns to be carried in public would increase the crime or death rates sufficed to justify a ban,

Heller

would have been decided the other way, for that possibility was as great in the District of Columbia as it is in Illinois

And a ban as broad as Illinois’s can’t be upheld merely on the ground that it’s not irrational.

Ezellv. City of Chicago

, 651 F.3d 684, 701 (7th Cir.2011);

United States v. Yancey

, 621 F.3d 681, 683 (7thCir. 2010)

A blanket prohibition on carrying gun in public prevents a person from defending himself anywhere except inside his home; and so substantial a curtailment of the right of armed self-defense requires a greater showing of justification than merely that the public

might

benefit on balance from such a curtailment,though there is no proof it would.

There is no suggestion that some unique characteristic of criminal activity in Illinois justifies the state’s taking a different approach from the other 49 states. If the Illinois approach were demonstrably superior, one would expect at least one or two other states to have emulated it.

The constitutionality of the challenged statutory provisions does not present factual questions for determination in a trial. The evidence marshaled in the

Skoien

case was evidence of “legislative facts,” which is to say facts that bear on the justification for legislation,as distinct from facts concerning the conduct of parties in a particular case (“adjudicative facts”). See Fed. R. Evid.201(a); Advisory Committee Note to Subdivision (a) of1972 Proposed Rule [of Evidence] 201. Only adjudicative facts are determined in trials, and only legislative facts are relevant to the constitutionality of the Illinois gun law. The key legislative facts in this case are the effects of the Illinois law; the state has failed to show that those effects are positive.

The Supreme Court’s interpretation ofthe Second Amendment therefore compels us to reverse the decisions in the two cases before us and remand

them to their respective district courts for the entry of declarations of unconstitutionality andpermanent injunctions.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

If the information I have posted is incorrect or if I have misunderstood it, it should be easy to provide links to the correct information from a credible source. I used information from Illinois which I think should be extremely reliable, if not, I am happy to learn more. Refuting what I have posted and proving it incorrect shouldn't require a lengthy reponse. A few sentences and a few links that trump what I have found should suffice. Illinois either recognized/recognizes out of state CC permits or they do not. Tens of thousand of Illinois residents rushed out the day after the ruling in December of 2012 or they did not. My research turned up nothing on the subject, but I'm happy to take a look at any credible source proving it is true.

I was actually hoping to ignore the claim that CC is responsible for the reduction in crime until after it is indisputably proven that CC has existed in Illinois since December of 2012 which would mean that only out of state permits would have been recognized since we are still waiting for Illinois to issue it's first batch of permits.

Perhaps the out of state CC being ok in Illinois is based on this:

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

• Illinois allows residents of other states carry a concealed firearm in their vehicle if they are can legally carry a firearm in public under the laws of their state or territory of residence and are not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under federal law.

This info is also available on the State Police site. But note that it does not allow one to CC on their person in public. I just want to make sure I point this out so that it isn't taken to mean that CC is ok.

Spooky, when a law is overturned and convictions under that law are overturned the law is no longer enforceable and no longer in practical existance. The state police are not "lying" they are simply giving "letter of the law" responses and answers.

The new law will replace the "interim" situation which was to allow anyone with a concealed carry license to carry concealed. The new law will actually reduce the number of CC holders legal in IL fore a period untii the new law gets "up to speed" with license issuance.

The case which was appeaked came from the prosecution of IL residents licensed to carry in other states. That was overturned. You really think they are going to try to prosecute someone else for the same thing?

[spookyturtle 9,465]

So once again, no no links, no sources. You haven't proved anything.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

I win.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

So once again, no no links, no sources. You haven't proved anything.

Good thing I don't need to.

You can choose not to accept my opinion of the facts and substitute your own...and we can review it again next year when we have another year of concealed carry to consider.

You can even be like many people and deny that CC has ever had any affect on crime in any place (the losing side in the 7th Circuit decision did exactly that...and lost)

Here are the facts...

IL has concealed carry, making it the 50th state to do so. VICTORY! Crime in Chicago has gone down. VICTORY!

I will always say they are connected and you cannot prove they aren't any more than I can prove they are. Stalemate. But I am OK with that. You? IF Illinois had implemented CC like every other state did, then the "They haven't even issued licenses yet" argument would have validity. IL did not do it like all the other states and there was an interim period where they had no law against CC that could be enforced. The opinion of the IL AG is available online, but it makes perfect sense that no one would prosecute under a law already ruled unconstitutional, that was a "no-brainer" ...as it is called in "IT". In fact, as it stood at the time, one did not even need to have a license from another state to carry concealed in IL. There was no LAW stating that. We had a court order that said "IL cannot deny the right to everyone" and the AG determined she would not prosecute IF they had a license from another state...not sure how she would prosecute if they didn't. Under what law? It is not the AGs position to determine that except that the unconstitutional law is still on the books but not enforceable. It was a political statement. Did you think she would come out and say "If you carry concealed there is nothing I can do about it?" In Illinois?

Oh well, case closed, job done. I win again. If you live in IL you can get a CC license. If you live in Chicago, you are 30% less likely to be murdered. Be happy!

In the next few years (if the SCOTUS decisions do not mandate it) IL will relax its law further and allow more people to carry guns in more places just as other states have done. NO state has repealed CC. Most have relaxed rules after a few years as they see how beneficial it is.

Another gun rights issue will be decided by the SCOTUS this year. Two more next year UNLESS Obama is successful in getting the SCOTUS not to look at them, I wonder why the Justice Department would oppose that? Any ideas?

We are building on the cases as they progress. We will get our rights restored.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

Good thing I don't need to.

You can choose not to accept my opinion of the facts and substitute your own...and we can review it again next year when we have another year of concealed carry to consider.

You can even be like many people and deny that CC has ever had any affect on crime in any place (the losing side in the 7th Circuit decision did exactly that...and lost)

Here are the facts...

IL has concealed carry, making it the 50th state to do so. VICTORY! Crime in Chicago has gone down. VICTORY!

I will always say they are connected and you cannot prove they aren't any more than I can prove they are. Stalemate. But I am OK with that. You? IF Illinois had implemented CC like every other state did, then the "They haven't even issued licenses yet" argument would have validity. IL did not do it like all the other states and there was an interim period where they had no law against CC that could be enforced. The opinion of the IL AG is available online, but it makes perfect sense that no one would prosecute under a law already ruled unconstitutional, that was a "no-brainer" ...as it is called in "IT". In fact, as it stood at the time, one did not even need to have a license from another state to carry concealed in IL. There was no LAW stating that. We had a court order that said "IL cannot deny the right to everyone" and the AG determined she would not prosecute IF they had a license from another state...not sure how she would prosecute if they didn't. Under what law? It is not the AGs position to determine that except that the unconstitutional law is still on the books but not enforceable. It was a political statement. Did you think she would come out and say "If you carry concealed there is nothing I can do about it?" In Illinois?

Oh well, case closed, job done. I win again. If you live in IL you can get a CC license. If you live in Chicago, you are 30% less likely to be murdered. Be happy!

In the next few years (if the SCOTUS decisions do not mandate it) IL will relax its law further and allow more people to carry guns in more places just as other states have done. NO state has repealed CC. Most have relaxed rules after a few years as they see how beneficial it is.

Another gun rights issue will be decided by the SCOTUS this year. Two more next year UNLESS Obama is successful in getting the SCOTUS not to look at them, I wonder why the Justice Department would oppose that? Any ideas?

We are building on the cases as they progress. We will get our rights restored.

There has been no year of concealed carry as there has been no concealed carry to date. Deflect it all you want. Being verbose for the sake of verbosity doesn't prove anything. Why not man up and admit you made it all up to get a rise out of people? No stalemate at all, you haven't provided any proof of your claims. But then again you knew that when you started this nonsense months ago.

Nothing but more BS. Own up to it and move on.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

I'm requesting that the off topic posts be removed so that we can stick to the subject matter at hand. Some of what is being discussed would be better addressed in a separate thread. I'm not singling anyone out on this, I just think it's best that we stick to the CC in Illinois subject. I would also like to see proof to substantiate the claim that tens of thousand of Illinois residents went out of state to get a CC permit the day after the ruling.

Note that thus far no link has been provided to provide any information to refute the information on the Illinois State Police and several pro gun websites.

[Ontarkie 14,218]

~~Off topic posts removed, stick to the topic on hand~~

Edited February 8, 2014 by Ontarkie