Consulate wants something that is impossible

[mikede1025 2]

I'm wondering if this is something that can be pursued via the NSO. USEM seems to accept documents from them without question (i.e., CENOMAR, etc). If they can produce a document that affirms the court order, then perhaps that will suffice. Just a thought.

I appreciate your feedback, and I apologize, but I have no idea of what you just said. NSO; USEM; CENOMAR. I've never seen any of those terms.

Mike

[mikede1025 2]

Where was he when she last had contact with him?

her last contact with him is more than 4 years ago. At that time he was in Florida.

[mikede1025 2]

My fiance had her interview in Manila on 1/23/14. She had filed for "Presumpitve Death" from a former husband. That marriage was a Philippino marriage. Ultimately the courts granted the presumptive death and gave her a copy of the court order which states that and it also states that she is legally able to pursue any subsequent marriage now without incurring any criminal liability. This is in accordance with article 288 of the Family Code. This court order goes on to state that "....His declaration of absense and presumption of death is without prejudice to his reappearance...."

This is very clear to me and very clearly states that she is legally able to remarry. Well, the consulate told her that she needed to obtain a death certificate. WHAT???? He was "Declared an absentee and for all intents and purposes is PRESUMED dead". He was presumed dead as allowed for within this law. He was not DECLARED dead. It is impossible for us to obtain a death certificate on someone who we have no idea is dead or not dead. He is also an American. The consulate says to her, "what if he is not dead and he comes forward"? Again, WITHOUT PREJUDICE covers that as well. It means that no matter now if he is dead or not or if he comes forward or not, this marriage is no longer and she is able to marry.

I have a desperate need now to contact someone at the embassy there who has authority so that I can have this discussion with them to show and explain to them how the consulate is NOT looking at this document correctly and that she is making and completely invalid and totally impossible request. How? Who? What can I do here? Who can I contact? We were given two other trivialities to take care of as well but we can do those with no problems. But this request goes beyond the pale. Someone please help me with who or how to contact.

Sorry, but I tend to repeat myself when I am upset and I hope I didn't over-explain this.

Mike

I want to say that I appreciate everyone's time and effort in order to help me today. I've read a lot of responses but they don't really tackle the problem. At the end of the day I'm in the same boat with no idea of what to do, except for one response was to hire an immigration attorney. But before that I'd like to exhaust my own personal efforts first. They aren't cheap, I'm sure. So, I'm gonna take this same issue but throw it out to you from a different direction to maybe zero in a little closer on what it is that I really need.

What I really need is to find out who to call so that I can discuss this issue with them to try to show them where the consulate is misinterpreting this court order. A Presumption of death is surely not a declaration of death. Therefor, how could a death certificate ever be presented when the possibility exists that there is not really a death. Only the presumption. Anyway, what I want is for a contact in order to state my case. Or is that an impossibility?

Thank you all again,

Mike

[Me_Theo 25]

She should take divorce, not ""Presumpitve Death" in every country when the husband or wife lost for long time, court give divorce after some official steps, that called " Divorce in absentia"

Why she didn't do that till now ?

Some poor country can make fake "Presumpitve Death" by a friend or friends ,they work in court or ....

Presumpitve Death is not a document she can marry again with it. That is just good for making decision about property or kids school or kids surgery or if salary come form his job to family by goverment or other office or somethings like that. not for remarry.

She should go to court and try to take real divorce. Unfortunately you guys should wait more to fix this problem.

In some country after 3 times report in newspaper about lost husband during some months ,The wife can go to court to take divorce without husband.

I am sure Philippin should has some law like that.....

But US embassy is right, they cannot give k-1 visa to someone still married.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Me_Theo

[mikede1025 2]

She should take divorce, not ""Presumpitve Death" in every country when the husband or wife lost for long time, court give divorce after some official steps, that called " Divorce in absentia"

Why she didn't do that till now ?

Some poor country can make fake "Presumpitve Death" by a friend or friends ,they work in court or ....

Presumpitve Death is not a document she can marry again with it. That is just good for making decision about property or kids school or kids surgery or if salary come form his job to family by goverment or other office or somethings like that. not for remarry.

She should go to court and try to take real divorce. Unfortunately you guys should wait more to fix this problem.

In some country after 3 times report in newspaper about lost husband,The wife can go to take divorce without husband.

I am sure Philippin should has some law like that.....

But US embassy is right, they cannot give k-1 visa to someone still married.

The Philippines is the ONLY country in the world that does not allow divorce in any way shape or form. Scroll up to where I uploaded a copy of the court order stating that she CAN remarry and without any legal consequence. For all intents and purposes she is a free woman. It's all in there. Read it.

[Sukie 1,447]

Mike, is there any way in <heck> that a Social Security Number for the presumed dead man can be found? If the first husband is dead, then perhaps his name might be listed on the Social Security Death Index, which would tell you where the death certificate was filed, and a copy might be found. I know this is not what you are asking for. You want the name and/or phone number of someone at the US Embassy in Manila to talk to.

Also wondering if the presumed dead had any family that could be contacted.

Just thought this might be one way to get around the problem.

Sukie

[livindadream 156]

If the man was presumed dead by going missing in the Philippines I would think it could be a little harder to go about getting to the bottom of it..but if he was a USC living in the States at the time of his disappearance, I would think there would be some sort of missing report, news story, something. If your wife was going through any sort of immigration process with the man, his info has to be on file somewhere. I know this is not answering your question, but maybe the answer to what you're looking for is tracking this man down and getting something in writing from the States. The internet is a wealth of information and it's not easy for people to just disappear. Good luck with everything,

[Bill & Ivy 6]

Mike,

I cannot give you any definitive answers, sorry, but you are dealing with the Philippine Govt. and this is just the way they operate. Logic, is a foreign word there it seems, cause things that seem perfectly logical to you and I, will have no bearing at all to them. I know it's hard to do, but try your best to always be polite and calm when dealing with officials there, it actually can help quite a lot, rather than to loose you cool and start yelling as I have many times myself wanted to do. I would first do as Darnell said, and make an appointment to talk to as high-up the ladder as possible. an officer in that dept. that governs the ruling in question, but that will mean a trip to Manila for your fiance if she is capable of handling and arguing the point by herself, or better yet, you should go if at all possible. Second, I think you will need to hire a lawyer that specializes in this field. It is the Philippines, so lawyers there are not that expensive compared to the US. Another BIG savings tip if you hire a lawyer, would be to let your fiance hire them and not you. Once any Filipino, discovers that they are being hired by a foreigner, the price goes way, way up. As another person said, counterfeit documents are rampant there, and can easily be gotten, so many times they will require extra documentation to prove that the documents submitted are actually real. Yes , there are things THEY could do to check out the documents and make sure they are real, but they put that responsibility on the person submitting the documents instead. Most likely, if you meet with the officials in person, they will come up with a list of things that they will want you to supply them, (notarized of course) in lieu of a death certificate, but be prepared for it to be complicated, and possibly take time.

Good luck though!

We are currently going through the slow process ourselfs, of proving that annulment papers are actually real, from back in 2009 before I met my fiance. That could easily be proven, by someone at NSO picking up the phone and calling the Judge that signed all the papers, but remember what I said about logic, logic does not come into play there, sadly. The NSO (National Statics Office) must verify and stamp all legal documents there before they are considered final. We are ready to book our interview now, but we cant because we are still waiting on NSO approval, we started that back last March, and figured we would have it long before we got to the interview stage of our K-1, which we didnt even start til Sept.

[destiny64 222]

I am along the same idea as another poster, if he was in the states when turned up missing there are many ways to track if a death certificate is out there. Some avenues for tracking if someone is dead or alive would be through ancestry.com (death certificates are entered in database) or SS#.

I'm sure their main concern is that your fiance's husband will appear and then they will get the heat for allowing her to commit bigamy. As Darnell said, find out via an info meeting in person what your options are.

If I were in your place I would be doing some detective work also , the internet is a wealth of information and I surely wouldn't want to marry someone until I knew they were free to do so!

[Boiler 44,929]

I do not know how it works in the US but in the UK you could so a search pay a small fee and get a copy of the Death Certificate.

Seems you are in the same state as well, I would imagine it would be much much cheaper and a lot quicker than getting into an argument with the Consulate.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Boiler

[NikLR 13,227]

I do not know how it works in the US but in the UK you could so a search pay a small fee and get a copy of the Death Certificate.

Seems you are in the same state as well, I would imagine it would be much much cheaper and a lot quicker than getting into an argument with the Consulate.

I think the problem here is that this person isn't actually dead. This was the way the Filipino fiance decided to get an annulment?

[mikede1025 2]

Mike, is there any way in <heck> that a Social Security Number for the presumed dead man can be found? If the first husband is dead, then perhaps his name might be listed on the Social Security Death Index, which would tell you where the death certificate was filed, and a copy might be found. I know this is not what you are asking for. You want the name and/or phone number of someone at the US Embassy in Manila to talk to.

Also wondering if the presumed dead had any family that could be contacted.

Just thought this might be one way to get around the problem.

Sukie

Sukie, the problem here is not whether or not he is dead. The problem is that according to family law there, she is free and able to marry because he is merely assumed dead by virtue of no contact for 4 years, no known whereabouts, and being absent and failing to respond to any and all of those court proceedings. It was all done in accordance with family law and legal and binding. The problem is that the consulate, for some reason, cannot see what's in front of her.

[RhettVoe 281]

One can obtain any document needed in the Philippines.......I am just astonished that you know more about filipino documents than our embassy personnel....why isn't the State Dept beating a path to your doorstep and begging you to be in charge of visa operations worldwide?

[mikede1025 2]

I am along the same idea as another poster, if he was in the states when turned up missing there are many ways to track if a death certificate is out there. Some avenues for tracking if someone is dead or alive would be through ancestry.com (death certificates are entered in database) or SS#.

I'm sure their main concern is that your fiance's husband will appear and then they will get the heat for allowing her to commit bigamy. As Darnell said, find out via an info meeting in person what your options are.

If I were in your place I would be doing some detective work also , the internet is a wealth of information and I surely wouldn't want to marry someone until I knew they were free to do so!

She IS free to do so. It is clearly stated on the court order that she is free and clear to remarry. This judgement is "without prejudice" which means that no matter whether or not he reappears in the future or even today, that the marriage between him and her has been nullified in the courts. My problem is NOT whether or not this man is dead or alive. My problem is that according to the court order and Philippine Family Law, my faince is no longer married to this person and is free and clear to remarry. Let me say that for all intents and purporses that this man IS NOT DEAD. So let's forget about death certificates because there can be none if there is no death. He is ASSUMED dead for the matter of turning this woman loose so that she can marry once again. Nobody or nothing ever said he was dead. My problem is this once again: There is a court order stating that my fiance is free and clear to marry because of this man's absenteeism and his failure to make himself known during all of this one year long court proceeding. This decision is without prejudice.

I am simply looking to find out who I can contact at the embassy in order to attempt to explain this to someone there who has any sense enough to understand what is written in front of them from a court order. I am not looking for a non-existent death certificate. Allow me to upload the court order once again in case some of you are picking up on this thread at the end. Please look closely to what the words mean. It is really quite simple and very straightforward.

Mike

[mikede1025 2]

One can obtain any document needed in the Philippines.......I am just astonished that you know more about filipino documents than our embassy personnel....why isn't the State Dept beating a path to your doorstep and begging you to be in charge of visa operations worldwide?

It's just as astonishing that you know as little as you do but yet try to make yourself heard with nothing to say.