In police shooting of mentally ill N.C. teen, who do you believe?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Good enough for me. I support your right to an opinion

Conjecture, Thanks.

Conjecture is conjecture in the absence of proof. And your claim is most definitely conjecture.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/10/us-usa-crime-chicago-idUSBRE9891F620130910

According to the Mayor of Chicago, increased foot patrol and more police helped. Nothing about CC.

Did you ask him for proof?

Next year crime will be down more. IL residents can carry concealed handguns and 90 LESS young black men were killed this year than last. I'm happy about that.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Incidentally if we were discussing the topic we'd be talking about the police shooting and not the gun control laws.

Did you ask him for proof?

Next year crime will be down more. IL residents can carry concealed handguns and 90 LESS young black men were killed this year than last. I'm happy about that.

Yet the one may have nothing to do with the other.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

So in Garyland, guns get the credit for low crime in states like Vermont. But guns do not get blame for high crime in states like Louisiana.

You've yet to post anything that proves gun laws are related to the crime rate at all. You think you have, which is adorable. But you haven't.

Well there's the thing, Gary. I haven't stated that CC = higher crime. You, however, have stated that CC = lower crime. Time to back up that statement with something that's not simply your opinion.

No, both states had reduced crime. Well, Vermont has always allowed CC since it became a state, so there is no "before" but it has also always had low crime. The ONLY state in which NO police officers have ever been killed on duty by gunfire. Ever.

And yes, I get it now, you make no claims to anything

[Penny Lane 8,159]

No, both states had reduced crime. Well, Vermont has always allowed CC since it became a state, so there is no "before" but it has also always had low crime. The ONLY state in which NO police officers have ever been killed on duty by gunfire. Ever.

And yes, I get it now, you make no claims to anything

Great. Just show me a study that links CC to the decrease in crime and we can be on our way!

And you've made the claim about no police officers ever being killed on duty by gunfire before, which I remember finding pretty amazing. So I looked it up.

http://www.odmp.org/search/browse/VT

Is this site incorrect?

Edited January 13, 2014 by Penny Lane

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Great. Just show me a study that links CC to the decrease in crime and we can be on our way!

Apology accepted. I think I can claim victory and be on my way. See ya 'round

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Great. Just show me a study that links CC to the decrease in crime and we can be on our way!

And you've made the claim about no police officers ever being killed on duty by gunfire before, which I remember finding pretty amazing. So I looked it up.

http://www.odmp.org/search/browse/VT

Is this site incorrect?

so you DO know how to post links. Just checking. What about links showing CC increases crime?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What is clear is that you can make any claim that you like, no matter how ridiculous or unsubstantiated. As is your right.

Whether it is convincing is another matter entirely.

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

one post removed, one member thread banned, and additional admin action taken for failing to heed moderation direction

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Did you ask him for proof?

Next year crime will be down more. IL residents can carry concealed handguns and 90 LESS young black men were killed this year than last. I'm happy about that.

Actually, the article said it:

McCarthy, who had overseen the New York police department's CompStat program which holds local commanders accountable for crime increases, said he had anticipated that the "saturation" tactic would be even more appropriate in Chicago, because of the gang violence here.

Arthur Lurigio, a professor of psychology and criminal justice at Loyola University Chicago, said he regards more foot patrols and putting more officers in high-crime areas as smart moves.

With foot patrols, Lurigio said, "residents are more likely to talk to the police and provide them with information about crimes occurring or crimes in the making." He said the presence also makes people feel safer and more likely to be out in the street, visiting neighbors and businesses, which is itself a deterrent to crime.

I don't see anything about CC.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If anyone is in the market for some links there's a lengthy literature review of an old study that refutes the original claim that more guns results in less crime.

http://econjwatch.org/articles/yet-another-refutation-of-the-more-guns-less-crime-hypothesis-with-some-help-from-moody-and-marvell

[Peikko 1,575]

Not really needed, everyone knows except Gary that CC laws do not have an impact on crime. There is no causal link at all between these laws and crime reduction. CC laws are irrelevant in that regard.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

If anyone is in the market for some links there's a lengthy literature review of an old study that refutes the original claim that more guns results in less crime.

http://econjwatch.org/articles/yet-another-refutation-of-the-more-guns-less-crime-hypothesis-with-some-help-from-moody-and-marvell

As if it needs a study to confirm what common sense dictates.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Next year crime will be down more. IL residents can carry concealed handguns and 90 LESS young black men were killed this year than last. I'm happy about that.

Crime in IL has been on a downward trajectory for some time. No CC licenses were issued in IL until the end of 2013 and out-of-state licenses are no good in IL. So nothing changed in IL in regards to CC licenses except the anticipation that those will be available this year. And yet, crime has come down. Fewer bodies year over year - again. All without a single CC permit issued. The delusion that you harbor is extraordinary. (personal attack removed- VJ Moderation)

Here are the violent crime rates for Chicago. Notice the significant drop in violent crime in Chicago starting in the early 1990's. Conceal carry has zip to do with any of that.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Kathryn41

[Kathryn41 3,205]

There have been enough warnings in this thread to stop making personal attacks. The topic has indeed veered off from the original article which discussed the use of unnecessary force in dealing with a teenager suffering from schizophrenia to whether concealed carry permits increase or reduce gun violence.

Please return to the original topic - the discussion regarding the necessary or unnecessary use of a firearm by the police in the presented situation.

Any further off-topics posts regarding concealed/carry weapons permits and their relationship to firearm violence will be removed. Any further personal attacks will also be removed and the poster thread-banned. Additional moderator action may also take place as required.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Kathryn41