In police shooting of mentally ill N.C. teen, who do you believe?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Do you think that might be because cc licensees aren't first responders? How many people in an emergency situation say quick call the guy down the street, he has a gun and a concealed carry permit.

CC holders ARE first responders. You think the police get there first? Ask TM about that. Police are always the LAST responders to a crime scene and how late they are is determined by the number of people killed before they arrive. In Sandy Hook they were 26 people late. In The Naval Yard shooting, 12 people late.

But as you point out, people DO call a guy with a gun to be the last responder. I suppose that is your plan, but it doesn't work for me.

I think the real reason is that no one understands the exact situation better than a victim of a situation. Police come onto a scene without all the information and have to make decisions in an instant based on little information. Often they make the wrong one. Too often for them to be armed with deadly weapons in most cases.

As we see, in states that allow more people the CHOICE to carry concealed and have LESS restrictions on who can carry, we have lower crime and virtually NO incidents of CC licensees shooting anyone. We recently had an incident here where a police officer shot a man armed with a shovel in the man's own driveway as they stood more than 20 feet apart! He shot him four times, all torso hits, and never tried to deploy his taser. Ridiculous. The officer has been cleared of wrongdoing though the 2nd police officer on the scene makes no comment. We have had no incidents like that with CC individuals despite anyone being able to be armed without a license or background check, and even allowed to carry in places serving alcohol!.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

So, you're saying that cops shouldn't be armed with guns, but everyone else should be? So what about the cops who patrol high crime neighborhoods? You know, the ones where you can be shot in the face while sitting on the couch sleep: http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/23/seattle-teens-glasses-save-her-in-drive-by-shooting/4174835/ The criminals don't use tasers, why should cops only have to rely on them?

That might work in Vermont, which sounds like an utopia the way you go on about it. But in a city that has a high crime rate? Not a chance.

Police should be able to carry guns off duty just as anyone else should. On duty...no. Less than lethal only. Far too many black people being killed by cops (did you read that report?)

If people are allowed the choice to be armed there will be a lot less high crime neighborhoods. Chicago has already had a huge reduction in crime and they have had concealed carry only for a year.

It works in Vermont better than IL vecause we allow ANYone to carry. In IL you have to have a license which reduces the number of people allowed to carry from 100% to a very small percent...yet it still impacts crime disproportionately. You are correct though about criminals not using tasers, so victims should be allowed to be armed also. Police are best equipped to arrive later and take reports.

Sorry if your state is not as nice as mine. That's why I choose to live here.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

There you go making sense again. Stop it already!

GZ, TM, Police. Who was the "first responder"?

Sandy Hook Elementary. Who was the "first responder"?

In which place did the innocent people get killed? In which place was a murder prevented? Which place was a "gun free zone"?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

There's a high percentage of people carrying guns in these high crime areas. So, crime should be lower.

Cute but not true

Even in high crime areas, criminals are a smal percentage of people as a whole. What you have is a high percentage of criminals being armed (because they do not care about the law) and a very low percentage of victims allowed to be armed. Since the good guys always outnumber the bad guys, allowing the good guys to be armed never increases crime...they are not the ones committing crime.

Allowing 100% of people the choice to be armed results in the lowest crime.

[Teddy B 17,252]

CC holders ARE first responders. You think the police get there first? Ask TM about that. Police are always the LAST responders to a crime scene and how late they are is determined by the number of people killed before they arrive. In Sandy Hook they were 26 people late. In The Naval Yard shooting, 12 people late.

But as you point out, people DO call a guy with a gun to be the last responder. I suppose that is your plan, but it doesn't work for me.

I think the real reason is that no one understands the exact situation better than a victim of a situation. Police come onto a scene without all the information and have to make decisions in an instant based on little information. Often they make the wrong one. Too often for them to be armed with deadly weapons in most cases.

As we see, in states that allow more people the CHOICE to carry concealed and have LESS restrictions on who can carry, we have lower crime and virtually NO incidents of CC licensees shooting anyone. We recently had an incident here where a police officer shot a man armed with a shovel in the man's own driveway as they stood more than 20 feet apart! He shot him four times, all torso hits, and never tried to deploy his taser. Ridiculous. The officer has been cleared of wrongdoing though the 2nd police officer on the scene makes no comment. We have had no incidents like that with CC individuals despite anyone being able to be armed without a license or background check, and even allowed to carry in places serving alcohol!.

I'd like to ask TM about that, but there's one small problem, he's dead. Killed by some overzealous gun aficionado. If there was ever a case that proved there are far too many people with guns legally that shouldn't have them, it's the TM/GZ case. That whole case exemplifies the fear that you gun aficionados try to offset with a gun. If GZ wasn't packing that night, he never goes after TM and TM is still alive.

CC's aren't so much the first responders as they are the first shooters.

[GandD 5,966]

Allowing 100% of people the choice to be armed results in the lowest crime.

Unless you're in asia

[Penny Lane 8,159]

As we see, in states that allow more people the CHOICE to carry concealed and have LESS restrictions on who can carry, we have lower crime and virtually NO incidents of CC licensees shooting anyone.

Are you sure about this?

Some of the states with the least restrictive gun laws have some of the highest crime.

Louisiana for example, off the top of my head.

EDIT: Yep. Let's look at Louisiana...

No state had a bigger problem with gun violence than Louisiana. Between 2001 and 2010, there were 18.9 firearm deaths — which includes suicides and accidents — annually for every 100,000 residents, more than any other state. In 2010, there were 9.53 homicides involving a firearm for every 100,000 residents, by far the highest rate in the country. In November 2012, nearly three-fourths of Louisiana voters approved a state constitutional amendment that placed a very strict standard on determining whether individual gun rights can be limited. Since the amendment was passed, a host of legal challenges have been filed against the state’s gun restrictions, including a challenge of the ban on felons to own firearms. The state received an F for its gun laws from the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. Among the reasons for the poor grade are the fact that the state does not require a waiting period for gun purchases or prohibit the sales of assault weapons or high-caliber rifles.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Penny Lane

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Police should be able to carry guns off duty just as anyone else should. On duty...no. Less than lethal only. Far too many black people being killed by cops (did you read that report?)

If people are allowed the choice to be armed there will be a lot less high crime neighborhoods. Chicago has already had a huge reduction in crime and they have had concealed carry only for a year.

It works in Vermont better than IL vecause we allow ANYone to carry. In IL you have to have a license which reduces the number of people allowed to carry from 100% to a very small percent...yet it still impacts crime disproportionately. You are correct though about criminals not using tasers, so victims should be allowed to be armed also. Police are best equipped to arrive later and take reports.

Sorry if your state is not as nice as mine. That's why I choose to live here.

Please show me where CC reduced the crime in Chicago.

Also, my state is Missouri. I'm stationed in IL.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

If the gun aficionados had their way, there would be no police.

The biggest emergency one has to worry about in Vermont is stepping on a cow chip.

And we want to keep it that way. Wouldn't you like it to be that way in your state? Are you telling me that if everyone in your state was allowed to be armed without a license, crime would increase? Why? How are people in Vermont better able to handle such freedom and people in your state cannot? I have a higher opinion of people in your state i guess.

I never suggested there be no police, neither has anyone else here.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

And we want to keep it that way. Wouldn't you like it to be that way in your state? Are you telling me that if everyone in your state was allowed to be armed without a license, crime would increase? Why? How are people in Vermont better able to handle such freedom and people in your state cannot? I have a higher opinion of people in your state i guess.

I never suggested there be no police, neither has anyone else here.

Why is the crime so high in Louisiana, where people are allowed to be armed without a permit? There's also no waiting period for purchases. Seems pretty easy for most people to get their hands on a gun down there and yet look at their crime... what's going wrong?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Please show me where CC reduced the crime in Chicago.

Also, my state is Missouri. I'm stationed in IL.

http://www.bet.com/news/national/2013/12/13/chicago-s-murder-rate-on-path-to-be-lowest-in-nearly-50-years.html

The 7th Circuit Court forced the State of IL and Chicago to issue CC permits AND Accept permits from any other state in December 2012.

Crime has fallen to a 50 year low in 2013. IL has now begun issuing its own permits. Crime will fall further. As more good people are armed, crime will be reduced further. Check back next year

I will await someone showing me where CC has increased crime.

No state has ever repealed CC. No state has ever been disappointed with the results.

[Teddy B 17,252]

And we want to keep it that way. Wouldn't you like it to be that way in your state? Are you telling me that if everyone in your state was allowed to be armed without a license, crime would increase? Why? How are people in Vermont better able to handle such freedom and people in your state cannot? I have a higher opinion of people in your state i guess.

I never suggested there be no police, neither has anyone else here.

Yes, that is absolutely what will happen. As many have tried to explain to to you in the past, it's all about demographics.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

http://www.bet.com/news/national/2013/12/13/chicago-s-murder-rate-on-path-to-be-lowest-in-nearly-50-years.html

The 7th Circuit Court forced the State of IL and Chicago to issue CC permits AND Accept permits from any other state in December 2012.

Crime has fallen to a 50 year low in 2013. IL has now begun issuing its own permits. Crime will fall further. As more good people are armed, crime will be reduced further. Check back next year

I will await someone showing me where CC has increased crime.

No state has ever repealed CC. No state has ever been disappointed with the results.

I can't open this link at my job. Can you show me where it says CC reduced the crime rate?

[GandD 5,966]

I can't open this link at my job. Can you show me where it says CC reduced the crime rate?

They banned BET at your work?

[Teddy B 17,252]

They banned BET at your work?