A Moroccan man just gave me some advice...you may not like it tho....

[momof1 205]

11 years and counting, baby! And I do mean to brag. If I had doubts I never ever would have married him. All these years and three kids later, I have no doubt that he treats me no different than a woman from Algeria.

[rade2rising 205]

Morocco and Nigeria worst places to marry a foreigner and stay married.....sad but true....I dare say the majority are fake relationships but how to convince someone? I bet someone try to warn you and you probably dismissed them....I guess everyone wants to find out for themselves.....hope the journey is worth it.....bcoz the ending certainly doesn't. ....

[SaharaSunset 165]

Morocco and Nigeria worst places to marry a foreigner and stay married.....sad but true....I dare say the majority are fake relationships but how to convince someone? I bet someone try to warn you and you probably dismissed them....I guess everyone wants to find out for themselves.....hope the journey is worth it.....bcoz the ending certainly doesn't. ....

Not sure what makes you an expert on the "worst places" to marry a foreigner...or where you get your statistics....? "Bcoz" it looks like you (or your spouse) is from Guyana, not Nigeria or Morocco.....and so I dare say I question your authority on the matter. But how to convince someone who is clearly prone to throw out sweeping generalizations & invented statistics? Ah the joys of anonymous internet forums. Where anyone can become an expert on anything, based on absolutely nothing. Sad but true.

Edited January 17, 2014 by SaharaSunset

[kristen_maroc 126]

I understand the "why do we talk about fraud so much/assume?" dilemma, and it's something that I struggle with. I hate perpetuating stereotypes. I hate putting people into boxes. I actually work against this in my professional career, and think about it very often.

It's something I struggle with in my job and academic life as well: while acknowledging diversity within cultures, it is also helpful to acknowledge culture norms. I feel confident arguing that the more someone understands about the culture differences and implications of collectivist vs. individualist societies is helpful to be able to understand cross-cultural situations. Someone who understands collectivism and comes from an individualist culture will more likely have an easier time adapting to an collectivist society than someone ignorant of the potential implications.

I see this as the same thing. Is there diversity among culture, among MENA men, among Moroccan men, among regions in Morocco, among Arab culture and Berber culture, among socio-economic level, etc? Absolutely. One thing I loved about my time in Morocco was the rich diversity of behaviors, attitudes, and interactions within a country that is 99% one religion.

But to ignore the fact (and, yes, I will go as far as to call it a fact!) that there is a large group of people in Morocco who have accepted the behaviors that are tantamount to visa fraud is ignorant. It doesn't mean that we should or have the right to paint everyone with the same brush-- that would also be ignorant and unfair. BUT it means that we need to go into situations with our eyes open, acknowledging that this does happen to a certain percentage of people, and operate with caution. I think it's safe to say that in Morocco (I won't talk about other MENA places), it's certainly worth acknowledging that this is a sub-cultural norm that applies to a large enough group of people that it warrants discussion and acknowledgement. Not all, not most, but there is a culture around it with a large enough portion of the population to make it relevant.

Do I think most MENA marriages that fail do this because of fraud? Absolutely not. That's what I was trying to get at at the end of my last post-- love in and of itself is not enough for most marriages, let alone cross-cultural, interfaith marriages involving immigration. 50% of marriages in the US result in divorce. There are "fraud" equivalents in every culture.

But most Americans know about motivations for "fraud" equivalents in our own culture. Why do people get married, and when is it bad or a wrong motivation? Gold-diggers? Physical attraction? Stability? To fill a mental-health related void in their own life? To have kids? To find companionship? To meet the expectations society sets out for someone their age?

I hesitate to put value judgments on any of the above reasons. When is right and when is wrong? It's up to the couple to figure that out... but these are at least talked about enough that most people have the opportunity to be aware of this when they make their decisions.

But would most Americans know intuitively about the extent of the sub-culture norm among some Moroccan men that target American women online and exploit the "red flags?" No, probably not to the extent that it happens.

It's a tricky and hard conversation... one that ruffles feathers... but I'll risk ruffling feathers as long as it is clear that I am not painting all Moroccans/MENA/Arab/Berber/Muslim men with the same brush, but merely raising awareness of the potentially accepted behavior of a segment of the population.

[morocco4ever 63]

Sorry to be posting so late on this, but this is a topic deep in my heart. kristen_moroc is right on the mark. The actual visa journey is the easy part. It is very hard to judge how well you and your fiance/husband are going to get along when you are together 24/7 as apposed to visiting for a few weeks at a time. Any marriage takes hard work, selflessness, and dedication. Being married to someone of a different culture and yes, a younger age has it share of difficulties. Not all of these "out of the ordinary" marriages start out as fraud, but will end because one or the other is not willing to put forth the effort to overcome the differences.

Although I do believe that Morocco is a well known high fraud country for a very good reason, I get angry when I hear people claim to know the intent of all Moroccans. In my experience it is the one that is claiming to know what all Moroccans want are the ones that are guilty of it. Think about it. What woman here in the US can say that they know 100% what every other woman in the US wants? I know that I certainly don't, and I would be a fool if I tried to claim such. For instance, I wanted kids. Do all American women want kids? I prefer to live in a the suburbs. Do all American women want to live in the suburbs? I can't stand the snow, hate any sort of activity in the snow. Is that also true for all American women? That kind of thinking is just nonsense, as is any man that tried to tell you that they know what all men of their culture want.

Just for the record, I am sure that most of the people here do not know who I am. I went through the visa process 9 years ago with my Moroccan husband. We will have been married for 10 years come this October, and he has been here for a little over 7 years. I am significantly older than my husband, and I do not have large sums of money stashed in the bank. If this Moroccan is correct then why are we still married? He is certainly free at this point to get a divorce and marry his Moroccan virgin, so why hasn't he?

The best advise I can offer is to stop listening to everyone, including your love interest, and start watching. Take your time, don't rush into anything. Give your SO enough rope. If he is a scammer he will eventually hang himself. But once he has, remember that he will say anything or do anything to blind you again. Be prepared to walk away BEFORE you make that final commitment. Then, if he has consistently shown good intentions, and you do marry, then do your best to keep it together. No marriage is always easy, there are going to be rough patches. It's 50/50 however. If he is not willing to give his fair share then yes, it is time to let go. But not until you are sure. And if you have been married 7 years, and has been able to walk away years ago if he choose, then perhaps you need to think that maybe you just weren't right for each other to begin with.

[Rosesarered 11]

Or there is another aspect of what can go wrong that needs to be considered by petitioners as well, and that is if you happen to be petitioning someone from a country that has a lot of restrictions like, not being able to date before marriage, not being able to display affection in public without getting into trouble, not being able to have sex with people if you desire sex because it is taboo, if your a woman not being able to wear whatever you wish for fear of being labeled a prostitute, if your a man not being used to seeing half dressed and openly flirtatious girls everywhere. How about once a fiancé/husband from these countries gets here....how will he feel once he realizes he can do whatever he wants because it is no longer illegal? In my situation I believe that my husband came here unfraudulently, I think he was (might still be) in love with me but after he began working around other guys who talk a lot about all their hook ups with women, and what they are doing with who etc, etc.....it just makes the little demons come out (if they were being controlled before). I don't even think my husband (maybe other womens husbands that ended up cheating too) even knew who he really was because he was always on his best behavior in his country.

He just became free to be himself! But that's another point. What if the sweet, respectable, god fearing, modest muslim family oriented man you are marrying...once he gets a taste of FREEDOM....becomes Rico Suave? Thing is nothing will be able to prepare either you or him for that. It is something you will have to find out once he's here. Food for thought.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Rosesarered

[morocco4ever 63]

That issue has always been an topic of conversation between me and my husband. He believes in the strict Muslim upbringing, but I think that it is better to raise them with the understanding that once they are of age there will be consequences to their actions. If they cheat, they are going to lose the trust of their loved one, possibly lose them all together. Here in the US the women are able to financially take care of themselves, and they do not have to stay in a marriage that the trust has been broken. Women in Morocco are become more and more independent by he day, and soon they won't feel the need to stay in a marriage with a cheating husband.

[venusfire503 54]

I see plenty of good posts here. I admit I haven't been on VJ much for a while, and am unfamiliar with the people and situations. But some things haven't changed. There are still relationships that work, and some that don't. I just want to put in my two cents, without claiming that what I have to say does or does not apply to any particular people.

One thing that I remember from the earlier days of my 'journey' is how annoying it was (and still is) when people bad-mouth/sterotype/pigeon hole MENA people and MENA/USC relationships. Trust me, I completely understand that people who have been hurt emotionally (and also sometimes - but not always - have been used for immigration purposes) want to warn everyone else. It makes sense to want to spare others the pain you're going through - I'm not a psychologist but am sure there's a deeper psychological reason, too, about taking back a sense of control of one's own situation by helping someone else avoid potential harm or something. However, I think in their state of pain, too many over-do it and claim that ALL (fill in the blank - here, usually MENA men) are scammers who use women for visas/green cards/citizenship. It makes others defensive, and can also actually push some to overlook certain things they might not accept otherwise. If you keep hearing that younger Moroccan men always target older American women, for example (one thing I kept hearing), you might be more inclined to insist to others - and maybe yourself - that 'everyone' has to be wrong, because "that could never happen to me".

Let's be honest. Yes, it DOES happen. Yes, even (fill in the blank - young, attractive, intelligent, confident - whatever you want to put in there) women can get scammed. Yes, it's probably more likely when the women are older, wealthy, overweight, whatever. But the thing is - and someone mentioned something about this - it's NOT IN EVERY CASE. Even in the most sterotypical cases, it's possible that the man really does love the woman, has the best of intentions, and the relationship will last and be a good one.

What used to bother me was that people made their assumptions on what they knew and could see, and not from any 'insider information' about our relationship. I had people, when they heard I married someone from another country, tell me about some guy they knew who scammed someone for a green card, etc. These people included friends, family members, and even people I barely knew. I don't care how solid your relationship is, marriage is challenging. Add in those other stressors such as the immigration process, being in different countries, the waiting, cultural adjustments, etc, and it's even more difficult to deal with. Having people feel the need to tell you that you're probably being scammed (or being told you're crazy, etc) - especially when it's coming from a faceless online post - can bring out the worst in anyone! No wonder there are arguments here! It's annoying when it's coming from someone who has no idea what they're talking about (like a woman I know who never left the small town she was born in and turned white as a ghost when she met my husband), but it's downright scary when it comes from someone in an international relationship that didn't work out.

Then I wonder if I should tell our story. I don't want to encourage anyone who actually is being scammed but hasn't figured it out yet. Not mentioning anyone in particular (as I said, I'm unfamiliar with almost everyone here, except a few 'old-timers' who almost definitely are past the point where they could be scammed and not know it yet), but statistically speaking, there's bound to be at least one person in that situation who will read this. I don't want my relationship to lull them into a false sense of security. At the same time, I remember getting down sometimes because of all of the negativity directed toward me or others in relationships with MENA men. As sure as I was about my SO, it was difficult at times to feel constantly badgered and/or 'warned' about men "like that". I took solace in hearing about successful relationships, especially when they had similarities to my situation.

Then again, I feel that there are plenty of warnings about the scammers. So, just to add a little balance: I am more than a decade older than my husband. I met him online while going through a divorce, and I have children with my (American) ex-husband. We had/have many of those "red flags" - such as differences in language, religion, culture, etc. I had some money from my divorce, but we're currently experiencing financial difficulties like most people. He's been a citizen for a few years now, and we've been married more than 7 years. We're very happy together, and I don't foresee any problems. I'm not recommending that people do things the way we did, but also want to say that it worked for us.

I think it's a good idea to read through the forums and get ideas of what has happened to others, and what works for some. But don't think that your relationship is going to fit in the exact mould as someone else's. Just be aware of what could happen (good or bad), and look honestly at yourself, your SO, and your relationship. Don't assume that just because of A or B that your relationship is good to go, or that it's doomed. It's not the things on paper that make or break a marriage, it's what's inside the people in it.

I was in a horrible, life-sucking marriage in the past, and now I'm in a wonderful, positive one, so I understand how it is on both ends of the spectrum. I sincerely wish the best of luck to everyone!

[Rosesarered 11]

I very well remembner morocco4ever from 2006, ~jacki~, Rajareda, hanginginthere, and many others whom are moisrtly mia from these boards since my journey began here. I do not use the screen name I did than because my inlaws from morocco were reading my posts and my intention is NOT to rip my X an new one or try to GET EVEN but to tell what happened to me. I knew before I decided to tell my personal story that I would get people talking and some would become defensive and others down right insulted. I chose to tell my story in any case. Why shouldn't I? It really happened. Its not a rumor or here say and I am not prejudice. I am muslim & Christian. I was on these boards everyday for more than a year. I know the boards. nearly everyone (NEARLY NOT EVERYONE) are now divorced already. Do the math. figure the percentage. Most don't even seem to want to tell their story it seems and they don't need to. Get past it and move on right???? I just think it is happening a lot more often than people think year after year. Not everyone comes to or posts on VJ. they suffer in silence. I am sure there are success stories and I am not against trying my luck again at some point should I gather the emotional energy lOL. But I will be a lot more careful.

I would definitely take a minimum of 2 years getting to know my partner and probably stay with them in their home country several times for a lengthy time and learn the language to know what they say around me to others (an possibly not let them know this) But don't you think that's a lot to have to do?????? Are the men in the USA really that awful?????? I mean seriously yes there are good and bad men everywhere but....are you willing to have a marriage that has so many potential things to go wrong? Just for a handful of years of struggle dealing with so many cultural differences? Ask yourself if that same guy were in the USA already...would he still be crazy about me? If he was working full time here in USA, could be with anyone he wanted, Has a cool ride, great job his own pad, would I be his flavor of the month???? or life partner forever? Just keep an open mind- consider everything- think outside the box

[ShirahBet 42]

I don't know that there's any criticism in sharing your story as long as it isn't making broad, sweeping generalizations. In an earlier post you reference marrying someone from a culture where so many things are forbidden, but that's not all of Morocco. That's not all Middle Eastern countries, nor is it all North African countries. Hell, there are parts of the US where such things are restricted that you mention.

It is wise to caution anyone getting to know someone as a love interest to take their time because their partner's background, culture and history, as well as theirs, will always influence a future life together. My husband was not afraid to show affection towards me in public the first time I was in Morocco and we weren't married. He hasn't been afraid to demonstrate affection anywhere we've been in any country. He hasn't cautioned me to stay covered and I follow the lead from his sister when I'm in Morocco. What is acceptable to him, his immediate family and portions of his extended family line up with my values, despite our religious differences.

As to why others aren't sharing their stories if they have ended negatively, well that's up to them. My brother got divorced, but he didn't go announcing it to everyone via social media. He certainly didn't give out the details to any Tom, #######, or Harry, but really, that's his choice. As this is yours. I commend you for sharing, I really do. It must be difficult to go through such a circumstance, and I hope to never personally experience what you've gone through.

[alicia98981 128]

Sorry to be posting so late on this, but this is a topic deep in my heart. kristen_moroc is right on the mark. The actual visa journey is the easy part. It is very hard to judge how well you and your fiance/husband are going to get along when you are together 24/7 as apposed to visiting for a few weeks at a time. Any marriage takes hard work, selflessness, and dedication. Being married to someone of a different culture and yes, a younger age has it share of difficulties. Not all of these "out of the ordinary" marriages start out as fraud, but will end because one or the other is not willing to put forth the effort to overcome the differences.

Although I do believe that Morocco is a well known high fraud country for a very good reason, I get angry when I hear people claim to know the intent of all Moroccans. In my experience it is the one that is claiming to know what all Moroccans want are the ones that are guilty of it. Think about it. What woman here in the US can say that they know 100% what every other woman in the US wants? I know that I certainly don't, and I would be a fool if I tried to claim such. For instance, I wanted kids. Do all American women want kids? I prefer to live in a the suburbs. Do all American women want to live in the suburbs? I can't stand the snow, hate any sort of activity in the snow. Is that also true for all American women? That kind of thinking is just nonsense, as is any man that tried to tell you that they know what all men of their culture want.

Just for the record, I am sure that most of the people here do not know who I am. I went through the visa process 9 years ago with my Moroccan husband. We will have been married for 10 years come this October, and he has been here for a little over 7 years. I am significantly older than my husband, and I do not have large sums of money stashed in the bank. If this Moroccan is correct then why are we still married? He is certainly free at this point to get a divorce and marry his Moroccan virgin, so why hasn't he?

The best advise I can offer is to stop listening to everyone, including your love interest, and start watching. Take your time, don't rush into anything. Give your SO enough rope. If he is a scammer he will eventually hang himself. But once he has, remember that he will say anything or do anything to blind you again. Be prepared to walk away BEFORE you make that final commitment. Then, if he has consistently shown good intentions, and you do marry, then do your best to keep it together. No marriage is always easy, there are going to be rough patches. It's 50/50 however. If he is not willing to give his fair share then yes, it is time to let go. But not until you are sure. And if you have been married 7 years, and has been able to walk away years ago if he choose, then perhaps you need to think that maybe you just weren't right for each other to begin with.

Amen to that . . .

[SaharaSunset 165]

I very well remembner morocco4ever from 2006, ~jacki~, Rajareda, hanginginthere, and many others whom are moisrtly mia from these boards since my journey began here. I do not use the screen name I did than because my inlaws from morocco were reading my posts and my intention is NOT to rip my X an new one or try to GET EVEN but to tell what happened to me. I knew before I decided to tell my personal story that I would get people talking and some would become defensive and others down right insulted. I chose to tell my story in any case. Why shouldn't I? It really happened. Its not a rumor or here say and I am not prejudice. I am muslim & Christian. I was on these boards everyday for more than a year. I know the boards. nearly everyone (NEARLY NOT EVERYONE) are now divorced already. Do the math. figure the percentage. Most don't even seem to want to tell their story it seems and they don't need to. Get past it and move on right???? I just think it is happening a lot more often than people think year after year. Not everyone comes to or posts on VJ. they suffer in silence. I am sure there are success stories and I am not against trying my luck again at some point should I gather the emotional energy lOL. But I will be a lot more careful.

I would definitely take a minimum of 2 years getting to know my partner and probably stay with them in their home country several times for a lengthy time and learn the language to know what they say around me to others (an possibly not let them know this) But don't you think that's a lot to have to do?????? Are the men in the USA really that awful?????? I mean seriously yes there are good and bad men everywhere but....are you willing to have a marriage that has so many potential things to go wrong? Just for a handful of years of struggle dealing with so many cultural differences? Ask yourself if that same guy were in the USA already...would he still be crazy about me? If he was working full time here in USA, could be with anyone he wanted, Has a cool ride, great job his own pad, would I be his flavor of the month???? or life partner forever? Just keep an open mind- consider everything- think outside the box

Okay, so I am a teacher, and I teach a course on World Religions. Sadly, I am constantly battling the ignorant stereotypes of my students about Islam. As I listen to my students make conclusions that all Muslims are terrorists, I have come to loathe stereotypes in all its forms. My student's conclusions are based on limited information - but to them, their feeling are very real and very valid. They base their stereotypes on what they have heard from others & what they have seen on TV. All they need to do is make connections between Islam and 9/11, and its nearly impossible to convince them otherwise. But they are wrong. And it is my passion as a teacher to broaden their horizons, and clear their minds of ignorance. I start by putting a stop to the sweeping, ignorant stereotypes.

So I apologize if it seems harsh Rosesarered, but I find your comments and stereotypes of Moroccans painfully ignorant. Yes I know you are not stereotyping Islam. But your attempt to stereotype all Moroccan men has a similar effect. You are perpetuating uneducated stereotypes about other cultures. And I do in fact find that, in and of itself, offensive and ignorant. Who are you to make authoritative statements about Moroccan men, just because you used poor judgement when you chose a husband?

It seems that you base your claims on your personal marriage. And yet we have no way of knowing the real reason your marriage ended. You might have been selfish, cold, or stubborn. Who knows? But we do know that you have absolved yourself of ANY responsibility by laying the claim that it was a scam, and that all Moroccan men are most likely scammers. You also make these ignorant claims based on your personal observations of the people who come to this website - As if that is some sort of conclusive study or set of statistics. And yet you have no idea what percentage of people involved in International Moroccan marriages actually come to this website. So your conclusions are totally skewed.

You might feel you are doing good to "warn others" about big bad Moroccan Scamming men. But its a shame you choose to "help others" by stereotyping other human beings, as opposed to, for example, taking personal responsibility for your choice. And although I really do respect the fact that you feel you are trying to help others. Stereotypes never accomplish anything beyond spreading ignorance and hate.

[Rosesarered 11]

not making any "claim" I am stating the "facts" of my own personal experience that I am very qualified In explaining .

I am in no way prejudice or using a blanket statement about " all Moroccans" . My husband just happened to be 100% Moroccan. Im not a hater, definately have no prejudice against any persons or sexes. Just a woman willing to share an experience that I paid for, invested in, suffered thru and am now sharing in the event that others will consider it whilst embarking or thinking of embarking on visa journeys.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Rosesarered

[Rosesarered 11]

not making any "claim" I am stating the "facts" of my own personal experience that I am very qualified In explaining .

I am in no way prejudice or using a blanket statement about " all Moroccans" . My husband just happened to be 100% Moroccan. Im not a hater, definately have no prejudice against any persons or sexes. Just a woman willing to share an experience that I paid for, invested in, suffered thru and am now sharing in the event that others will consider it whilst embarking or thinking of embarking on visa journeys.

On a side note "sierrasunset" and I hope you done take this wrong or find it offensive but, I don't see anything in my post that you highlited reflecting anything resembling "stereotyping" although you did refer to me as ignorant several times as well as hateful and allude to the assumption that I am or was cold, stubborn selfish lol......for a teacher well I hope your kinder to those you are trying to teach especially about " world religions"

[sandinista! 1,816]

So much reading comprehension FAIL.

She didn't allude that you are any of those things. Nobody here has any idea what happened in your marriage. No one knows if he was scammy, scummy, or both and more. What is known is that your first post here was a screechy whine about a marriage you inexplicably stayed in for seven years, and what you thought was some earth shattering proclamation from some Moroccan doofus in a weird as heII position of having multiple women sharing their bad drama with a Moroccan with him. Yawn. Everything about this is absurd.

not making any "claim" I am stating the "facts" of my own personal experience that I am very qualified In explaining .

I am in no way prejudice or using a blanket statement about " all Moroccans" . My husband just happened to be 100% Moroccan. Im not a hater, definately have no prejudice against any persons or sexes. Just a woman willing to share an experience that I paid for, invested in, suffered thru and am now sharing in the event that others will consider it whilst embarking or thinking of embarking on visa journeys.

On a side note "sierrasunset" and I hope you done take this wrong or find it offensive but, I don't see anything in my post that you highlited reflecting anything resembling "stereotyping" although you did refer to me as ignorant several times as well as hateful and allude to the assumption that I am or was cold, stubborn selfish lol......for a teacher well I hope your kinder to those you are trying to teach especially about " world religions"