Thoughts on keeping families together (and a possible petition)

[aaron2020 11,651]

Side note.

There is a reason why the US debates brining terrorists into the US versus shipping them off to Guantanamo.

Terrorists shipped to Cuba cannot have access to US courts.

Terrorists shipped to the US are entitle to DUE PROCESS. They can have access to lawyers (paid for by US taxpayers) and a right to ask the court for relief.

If terrorists in the US have rights, so would the people that you guys think all so easy to deport without fuss or costs to US taxpayers.

[*Snowdrop* 604]

We all know that petitions can be adjudicated inside fo two weeks if not even sooner.

THIS.

The time it's taking is the queue for most people, not the processing (not those who get AP of course)

When we went through in 2007 there was a similar USCIS backlog which really affected the CR1/IR1s. At that time it took 90 days just to get the NOA1 back. After ten months we got an email saying our files were being transferred to another center for processing. It took less than 2 weeks to be approved once it hit the new center.

We'd just been sitting on some shelf for ten months.

Ironically the backlog which delayed us was caused by millions more people filing to beat a price rise, which was aimed at improving the service.

So if for your basic average case it takes less than 2 weeks to approve once it hits an officer's desk - the system needs improving and making more efficient.

One of the most annoying things for us at the time, as well as missing each other, and having to delay having a baby, was the exchange rate from pounds to dollars dropped dramatically and as I didn't want to send my savings on ahead until I actually moved we lost about $20,000

[David & Diana R 1,005]

PLEASE READ the caveats at the end of this post before responding so we don’t turn this into a pointless flame war.

I, and I am sure many of you as well, find the forced separation of family members to be inhumane and unnecessary. I think this is particularly egregious when it comes to the separation of spouses and their children (at least when under a certain age). I know I very much resent the fact that my wife and I will be missing this Christmas together, as well as our first wedding anniversary. Some may be content to carry on their relationships by skype, but I think the majority of us would much rather actually be together, and that we begrudge every day that we are forced to be separated from our loved ones due to a mere bureaucratic process. I think that it would be a good idea for those of us of a like mind to get together and see if we can come up with a clear, coherent, and workable basis for a petition to get that policy changed.

I would suggest making a petition that would deal with the following two issues specifically:

1. The spouse of the petitioner and any children (under a certain age – certainly minors, maybe up to about 25 years old) should be allowed to live together in the US while the application is processed. During that time, of course, they will not be allowed to work or use public services, just as if they were on visa waiver program, etc, and the petitioner will have to support them (and perhaps submit the Affadavit of Support along with the I-130).

1. All family members should be processed together, as one batch, so that we don’t have a situation where, say, the spouse and one child are approved, but the other child is not (whether denied or application simply taken longer). This puts families in a needlessly awkward position.

I would think that people from visa waiver program countries, at the very least, should be allowed to stay. My wife is a German citizen, and used to come visit me for 3 months, then go back for 3 months. It wasn’t a problem. But now that we sent in the I-130, we’ve been informed that if she tries to visit, she will almost certainly be turned back at the border. If she could come for 3 months with no problem, then why not just let her stay the 9 or 10 months that it takes on average? After all, on visa waiver program, you’re not allowed to work or use any public services anyway, so what difference would it make except being for a somewhat longer time?

I think letting the families live together would make it easier to detect fraud, because then we can see if they are really living together and acting like a couple, and see if the beneficiary breaks any of the rules. With the current system, we can only guess if they are legitimate, but seeing them in practice would give much more reliable data, I would think. And since the beneficiary would not yet have the green card, if they are revealed as fraudulent, they can be easily told to leave and have their application rejected. What I more, I think this policy change has elements that could make it easy to market to both the left and right wing. To the left, we can present it as a humanitarian matter, and to the right, we can point out that you can’t get much bigger government than saying that you can’t live with your own children/spouse, at least not without giving up your life in the US and moving to their country…

Anyway, those are my thoughts in a nutshell. Anyone have any other issues they think should be addressed? Or coments on those two? Also, what objections can you think of that may be made against it, so we can come up with compelling replies?

Caveat 1: Illegal Immigrants. Please do not air your opinions on the recent policies legitimizing illegal immigrants here. Whether you agree with it or not, it *did* happen and it is something we can use to justify easing restrictions on legal immigrants. So let’s please not get into a discussion on that issue, except on specific points that may be relevant here.

Caveat 2: Constructive comments only, please! I know some people here on VJ seem very resistant to considering any change to policy, and who use arguments like “it’s just the way it is, deal with it” or “you know what you got into, so deal with it” – these are not constructive comments. Policies get changed all the time, and I think any policy that forces families to live apart is in desperate need of changing. If that for some reason upsets you, you needn’t participate in this discussion nor are you under any obligation to sign any petition that may eventually result. But please don’t just come here and rain on our parade. Also bear in mind that anything that may result from this will certainly eventuate far too late to benefit any of us – but I still think it’s worth exploring the possibilities so that others in the future do not have to endure this unnecessary separation.

Caveat 3: No free rides. Please note I am NOT suggesting that the immigrants be given carte blanche to just come willy nilly. The beneficiaries would still have to go through the whole process, the only difference is that they could live here in the US with their spouse/parent during the processing time. If the application is rejected in the end, then they will have to leave. And while they are here, they will of course be forbidden to work or make use of public services for citizens. And if they break those rules while here, it will be clear evidence of their bad faith and they’ll have their application rejected and have to leave the country. If national security is an issue, then in those individual cases, they may not be allowed to come until cleared, however I imagine that the number of applications rejected for national security concerns is miniscule.

Petition schmetition...There are as many as 12 million illegals here already. The US hasn't gotten around to deporting them yet and you want more here? Once they get here they will stay.

Edited December 16, 2013 by David & Zoila

[del-2-5-2014 1,339]

Who will pay these retired ex military type to do this? US taxpayers?

DUE PROCESS. The US does not operate like that. People cannot be processed ex parte and flown out of the country with little fuss. The US Constitution guarantees all people (legal or not) within US borders be afforded due process. This means the person has a right to go to immigration court to fight any deportation.

The deport them if they are bad apples after allowing them to work and live in the US is NOT CHEAP, FREE, or FAST. It cost money to enforce to detain and deport people. People who have the right to have their day in court.

Who will pay?

Who is paying now? Petitioners from the filing fees. Add a $150 deportation surcharge to all petitions.

Due Process?

Oh please, where is your due process with NSA as they hijack and store your data? Please don't make it sounds if we are a country of law, always.

[LIFE'SJOURNEY 970]

Please don't make it sounds if we are a country of law, always.

Even if we aren't, atleast we can try to be a country of law, that is one of the reason why most people do try to migrate to the US.

Gwon, $150 dollars can't even get you a cab ride to the airport. Set it so that it doesnt cost those US tax payer who have NO vest intrest in getting your family to the US have to support it.

Edited December 16, 2013 by LIFE'SJOURNEY

[del-2-5-2014 1,339]

Please don't make it sounds if we are a country of law, always.

Even if we aren't, atleast we can try to be a country of law, that is one of the reason why most people do try to migrate to the US.

Gwon, $150 dollars can't even get you a cab ride to the airport. Set it so that it doesnt cost those US tax payer who have NO vest intrest in getting your family to the US have to support it.

Oh I didn't mean to diss my adopted country. We are not perfect but still a damn nice place to live in that for sure. What I meant to say is that we can bend rules when we can. Just look at how Phillipines and Haiti petitions are getting approved. I mean it's for a good cause but we can shelve due process and stuff when we want to get stuff done.

I agree with your sentiments maybe we can ask USCIS what they'll need or what it'll take to improve the process.

[LIFE'SJOURNEY 970]

This is what happens if we want a shorter process, the rules will get tighter, tighter rules means more people will fall out of the acceptance requirements.

You'll cant have it all, so what do you really want? Remember so folks just barley meets the requirements. Shorter time means more cost to the petitioner, even in the 5-6 months time frame, people are complaining that they dont have the money to complete the process.

Look at the number of K1 who cry about not having the money to complete the AOS once they are maried. This one fix has to accommodate all of the issues.

Rules must work for all not just the few who can afford to pay their way thru quickly. Remember the family that is in the developing country, the family that is in a communist country, a family that lives 1000 of miles from consular.

Edited December 16, 2013 by LIFE'SJOURNEY

[RhettVoe 282]

One major reason for our current policy is marriage fraud...each year, thousands of Amcits get snookered by green card seeking (you insert your favorite noun here)....letting everyone just show up and chill out in the US would bring untold thousands of mala fide types here....to start scamming everything that's not nailed down...sorry...I for one don't want that...having such an easy path to camping out in the US would likely result in the marriages to foreigners rate skyrocket as even more people get taken in by online romances....

we have a process...it's not the fastest, but unless you want to hire 10,000 more adjudicators and pay $10,000 per petition for filing, well, queue up. It's just the way it is.

[aaron2020 11,651]

Who will pay?

Who is paying now? Petitioners from the filing fees. Add a $150 deportation surcharge to all petitions.

Due Process?

Oh please, where is your due process with NSA as they hijack and store your data? Please don't make it sounds if we are a country of law, always.

$150 to hire ex-military guys to track down a person, detain them, and go through a deportation hearing? $150 doesn't even pay for a one way ticket out of the US.

The NSA has nothing to do with due process and immigration court. Collecting data and deporting people are completely unrelated and different things. What is the harm in knowing who calls whom versus deporting a person. Data vs a person. Completely different things.

People outside the US are not afforded due process. People inside the US are. If you don't understand what due process means, then I can't help you understand it. You might want to read up on why terrorist are sent to Cuba instead of the US - the Republicans will tell you why we should not send them to the US.

Do you really think people who are allowed in and then get tagged as bad apple can just be sent back? Don't you think they will ask for a day in immigration court? Do you think ACLU would let people be deported without an opportunity in court?

[rade2rising 205]

guys bottom line is that the immigration process is long and frustrating so we end up thinking about any possible way to shorten the wait. Just don't allow yourself to start believe its realistic you will only hurt yourself further. just buckle down and concentrate on going over your paperwork and get your personal life in order for when your SO comes over.

[del-2-5-2014 1,339]

$150 to hire ex-military guys to track down a person, detain them, and go through a deportation hearing? $150 doesn't even pay for a one way ticket out of the US.

The NSA has nothing to do with due process and immigration court. Collecting data and deporting people are completely unrelated and different things. What is the harm in knowing who calls whom versus deporting a person. Data vs a person. Completely different things.

People outside the US are not afforded due process. People inside the US are. If you don't understand what due process means, then I can't help you understand it. You might want to read up on why terrorist are sent to Cuba instead of the US - the Republicans will tell you why we should not send them to the US.

Do you really think people who are allowed in and then get tagged as bad apple can just be sent back? Don't you think they will ask for a day in immigration court? Do you think ACLU would let people be deported without an opportunity in court?

Shashing good news as I don't need you personally to teach me anything.

I'm good.

[Sukie 1,460]

I'm another same-sex couple who wouldn't be able to go the pregnancy route (I'm female, but....a little too old!). I've only been married for seven months, even though I could have legally been married for much longer if we'd gone to Canada. But we were counseled NOT to marry because it would make it harder for my partner to enter the US if they knew she was married to a US citizen. We've been a couple for over 5 years. And still we wait on our I-130...

I am curious about one thing, though. Why doesn't the US require exit paperwork - both for foreign nationals and for its own citizens?

I have lived and worked in Japan, Hong Kong, and Australia. While traveling on business throughout Asia, there has not been ONE country that did not require me to fill out paperwork when LEAVING the country as well as when ENTERING the country. I have the Green Card equivalent for Australia. Everyone - Australian citizens and foreign nationals - fills out an exit card and goes by an DIAC officer upon leaving the country. Each exit stamp in my passport is right next to the entry stamp.

Why doesn't the US do this? It would mean that the US would KNOW who is in the country and who isn't. It would be easy to figure out an overstay situation and deal with it right away.

This is a rhetorical question...

Sukie

[Jamie & Izzy 98]

*sigh* I should have known better than to think I could start a civilized discussion and not have it turn into an instant flame war...

As I said in the OP, if you don't have a *constructive* comment to make, please don't bother posting in this thread. And flaming some poor woman because she got pregnant without even knowing anything about her is, shall we say, rather less than constructive, and trolling is not helpful at all... :/ I know that some of you are oddly defensive of a system which forces you to be separated from your loved ones, but that's you're prerogative. We'll respect your view, but please respect ours that the current system can be changed and improved in at least some ways and let us discuss the possibilities in peace. For those of you who seem to have the opinion that all applicants are suspect terrorists/fraudsters/whatever, do recall that the very foundation of American jurisprudence is that one is supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty. So why should we treat all beneficiaries as criminals?

I reiterate, we have a democratic process in this country for a reason. When laws or policies don't work, the people are supposed to be able to make their voices heard and get things changed to work better. I firmly believe that forcing families to live apart - whether they have children or not - is unnecessary and inhumane, and surely there is a way the system can be changed to reduce or eliminate that separation. And again, for those who have apparently not bothered to read the original post, i am NOT suggesting that these immigrants just be given a free ride - they would still have to go through the whole process, they would just be able to live in the US with their spouse/parents.

Again, before anyone starts just immediately flaming the idea down: other countries do it this way, and it seems to work just fine for them. I know for a fact that Germany allows spouses and children to stay with the applicant while the paperwork is processed, and it doesn't seem to cause any problems. So, what I am curious about is how do these countries do it, and how can policies like theirs be implemented in the US?

This raises the issue, what about those who do commit fraud and have their applications rejected? True, this is a real issue, and that's why I wonder how other countries handle it. What can be done to help ensure they leave when their application is rejected, or reduce any costs involved in deporting them. I also wonder if anyone has some solid statistics on this. I read somewhere that in 2006 (iirc), about 8% of spousal applications were rejected as suspect of being fraudulent. Do we know just how many people we're talking about so we can estimate a worst-case scenario? Surely the number of spousal visa immigrants is far less than the number of illegal immigrants, and the number of fraudulent spousal visas a small fraction even of that, so I suspect the number is going to be - relatively speaking - rather small.

Thank you to those of you who have posted constructive comments! It's very interesting to hear that the actual processing time is something like two weeks. Now that could be considered a reasonable time to be separated. But how do you think things could be set up to prevent backlogs and increasing delays?

I acutally think that putting through the family guy USC with the 15 year marriage and kids that are out of the country should be in the front of the line. The rate of marriage fraud for those people are going to be very low in comparison to the CR/K1 people, and their cases should be very easy to verify. Speeding up those people would reduce the backlog and overall numbers of people waiting fairly quickly. But I also think that petitions that have kids involved should go towards the front of the line, regardless of the immigrant class. And military people.

However, I can see the draw backs in that as well. That could mean ridiculous wait times for CR/K1 people, and I'm not willing to throw them under the bus just so my case gets adjudicated a little more quickly. I love and miss my husband like crazy, but it goes against everything I believe to needlessly hurt other people for my own benefit.

Actually, if we could just get them to actually process the cases in the order in which they are received, I think that would be a huge achievement and help reduce the overall time we're kept waiting.

I heartily second this! The only serious objection I could see to this is that in cases where more information is requested, of course it will have to take longer. But when the processing goes normally, yes, they should certainly be handled in the order received on the first come, first served principle. Though there is something in what you say, that couples with children are less likely to be committing fraud. DO you know if there are any statistics on this that we could cite?

[*Snowdrop* 604]

It's hard to compare the immigration systems of other countries to the US without having the facts about numbers of immigrants, types of immigrants etc to compare, how the country funds the agencies which do the work, how much it costs etc.

I don't have those figures but I suspect that the percentages of those trying to immigrate to the US are so much greater than most European countries that there's no simple solution from another country to improving the backlogs here.

After being on this board for seven years now it certainly seems from anecdotal evidence and observation that USCIS is constantly fire-fighting one type of backlog after another, always running to catch up and different visa categories suffer at different times of a constant loop. It feels as though a huge overhaul of the system is needed but whether they will ever get the kind of cash needed to do that is another thing.

Plus certainly in the UK things are changing for family immigration, and not in a good way. It used to be much easier and quicker to have your spouse come to the UK. Now the new financial regulations make it much more difficult with potentially huge separations for families. I suspect family immigration - which gets lumped together with all immigration issues could become much harder across all western European countries for those outside the EU.

[thedude6752000 360]

Who will pay these retired ex military type to do this? US taxpayers?

DUE PROCESS. The US does not operate like that. People cannot be processed ex parte and flown out of the country with little fuss. The US Constitution guarantees all people (legal or not) within US borders be afforded due process. This means the person has a right to go to immigration court to fight any deportation.

The deport them if they are bad apples after allowing them to work and live in the US is NOT CHEAP, FREE, or FAST. It cost money to enforce to detain and deport people. People who have the right to have their day in court.

This such a ridiculous system. Jump the border at 16 with no knowledge of the English language to clean houses for a living like my El Salvadorean roommate did, this country will kiss your @$s (all the while you are complaining about "dee ###### immigracion.") Apply through all of the right channels, have a masters degree (in English), never break an immigration law, and you get to wait in line for years and then get treated like a terrorist like my wife.

The "it's all necessary" nonsense is just that, nonsense, no other country on the earth except North Korea has a longer and more painful immigration process than we do for our own citizen's spouses. If Germany, England, Canada, and Norway, all rich countries with good economies that attract millions of illegal immigrants trying to come in each year, can process spouse visas in 3-4 months there's NO reason why the US can't do it in less than 6. We are the only country I know of that makes visa apps like this go through our internal immigration service, most other countries just have you apply through the government's ministry of foreign affairs. It's a ridiculous system we have here and defending it makes you just as bad.

To all of the apologists on here defending the USCIS and its obvious failure we have in this country, congratulations on supporting the continued slide of this country into incompetence and irrelevancy..