Thoughts on keeping families together (and a possible petition)

[Jamie & Izzy 98]

PLEASE READ the caveats at the end of this post before responding so we don’t turn this into a pointless flame war.

I, and I am sure many of you as well, find the forced separation of family members to be inhumane and unnecessary. I think this is particularly egregious when it comes to the separation of spouses and their children (at least when under a certain age). I know I very much resent the fact that my wife and I will be missing this Christmas together, as well as our first wedding anniversary. Some may be content to carry on their relationships by skype, but I think the majority of us would much rather actually be together, and that we begrudge every day that we are forced to be separated from our loved ones due to a mere bureaucratic process. I think that it would be a good idea for those of us of a like mind to get together and see if we can come up with a clear, coherent, and workable basis for a petition to get that policy changed.

I would suggest making a petition that would deal with the following two issues specifically:

1. The spouse of the petitioner and any children (under a certain age – certainly minors, maybe up to about 25 years old) should be allowed to live together in the US while the application is processed. During that time, of course, they will not be allowed to work or use public services, just as if they were on visa waiver program, etc, and the petitioner will have to support them (and perhaps submit the Affadavit of Support along with the I-130).

1. All family members should be processed together, as one batch, so that we don’t have a situation where, say, the spouse and one child are approved, but the other child is not (whether denied or application simply taken longer). This puts families in a needlessly awkward position.

I would think that people from visa waiver program countries, at the very least, should be allowed to stay. My wife is a German citizen, and used to come visit me for 3 months, then go back for 3 months. It wasn’t a problem. But now that we sent in the I-130, we’ve been informed that if she tries to visit, she will almost certainly be turned back at the border. If she could come for 3 months with no problem, then why not just let her stay the 9 or 10 months that it takes on average? After all, on visa waiver program, you’re not allowed to work or use any public services anyway, so what difference would it make except being for a somewhat longer time?

I think letting the families live together would make it easier to detect fraud, because then we can see if they are really living together and acting like a couple, and see if the beneficiary breaks any of the rules. With the current system, we can only guess if they are legitimate, but seeing them in practice would give much more reliable data, I would think. And since the beneficiary would not yet have the green card, if they are revealed as fraudulent, they can be easily told to leave and have their application rejected. What I more, I think this policy change has elements that could make it easy to market to both the left and right wing. To the left, we can present it as a humanitarian matter, and to the right, we can point out that you can’t get much bigger government than saying that you can’t live with your own children/spouse, at least not without giving up your life in the US and moving to their country…

Anyway, those are my thoughts in a nutshell. Anyone have any other issues they think should be addressed? Or coments on those two? Also, what objections can you think of that may be made against it, so we can come up with compelling replies?

Caveat 1: Illegal Immigrants. Please do not air your opinions on the recent policies legitimizing illegal immigrants here. Whether you agree with it or not, it *did* happen and it is something we can use to justify easing restrictions on legal immigrants. So let’s please not get into a discussion on that issue, except on specific points that may be relevant here.

Caveat 2: Constructive comments only, please! I know some people here on VJ seem very resistant to considering any change to policy, and who use arguments like “it’s just the way it is, deal with it” or “you know what you got into, so deal with it” – these are not constructive comments. Policies get changed all the time, and I think any policy that forces families to live apart is in desperate need of changing. If that for some reason upsets you, you needn’t participate in this discussion nor are you under any obligation to sign any petition that may eventually result. But please don’t just come here and rain on our parade. Also bear in mind that anything that may result from this will certainly eventuate far too late to benefit any of us – but I still think it’s worth exploring the possibilities so that others in the future do not have to endure this unnecessary separation.

Caveat 3: No free rides. Please note I am NOT suggesting that the immigrants be given carte blanche to just come willy nilly. The beneficiaries would still have to go through the whole process, the only difference is that they could live here in the US with their spouse/parent during the processing time. If the application is rejected in the end, then they will have to leave. And while they are here, they will of course be forbidden to work or make use of public services for citizens. And if they break those rules while here, it will be clear evidence of their bad faith and they’ll have their application rejected and have to leave the country. If national security is an issue, then in those individual cases, they may not be allowed to come until cleared, however I imagine that the number of applications rejected for national security concerns is miniscule.

[Cathi 5,748]

And what happens to the beneficiaries who are denied in the end, beneficiaries who you say will have to return home, who's to say they will actually leave? Who is going to force them to go home? This is setting up a new way for people to stay illegally. And why only people from VWP countries? Not very fair to the couples from other parts of the world.

[lluvialluvita 2]

Wonderful post you put up... I think every single person under the same circumstances, or that has been, has thought of the same thing, but felt complete loss of hope and weakness. I love the idea....as long as it is done, in a peaceful, legal, professional, and unoffensive manner to the government. As long as it notifies them clearly that we truly respect their hard work and effort put into protecting our beautiful country but we are truly undergoing extreme hardships in every way shape and form, and have been affected in all aspects of our lives in negative ways because of this process.

[NigeriaorBust 4,087]

If separation is good enough for our soldiers it is fine for those that are asking to come here If you want to have them preemtively enter the US then the beneficiary should be required to put up a bond that would cover all the possible costs of deportation say 500K in cash per immigrant. That way a petitioner isn't put out by a fraudster and if the relationship goes bust before 2 years the US government can keep the money to cover costs.

Once implemented I think all beneficiaries either pay or stay out until approved no favors to VWP people also end adjusting from VWP

Edited December 16, 2013 by NigeriaorBust

[lluvialluvita 2]

I think there are ways to enforce people who must/should go back home to do so......IF, the government truly wants. plus it might create some new jobs.....people who are positioned just to deport/find people to deport..... both my siblings have been deported from the U.S at the age of 18 because their mother brought them to the U.S illegally, and kept it a secret. I just think we can find a middle path to make things easier on everyone.....thats what i am up for.....my baby boy, my fiances first child, will be born in april , and he will not be there, he might not even see his first child until he is one year old, how heart breaking?? I respect the system in every way, its just too heart breaking......to go through this. i cannot visit him.....he cannot visit me, he cannot touch or hold his own first child for perhaps the whole first year of his life.......

[Jamie & Izzy 98]

And what happens to the beneficiaries who are denied in the end, beneficiaries who you say will have to return home, who's to say they will actually leave? Who is going to force them to go home? This is setting up a new way for people to stay illegally. And why only people from VWP countries? Not very fair to the couples from other parts of the world.

I agree - I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I think any change should benefit all, not just people from VWP countries. What I meant was that its particularly ridiculous in their case, given that they're allowed to come without a visa for 90 days and are apparently trusted to follow the rules. So why not let them stay longer when they are married and applying for their visa?

As far as making sure the beneficiary leaves when the application is rejected, I'm not sure how it would be done, but I'm sure a straightforward solution could be found. For example, the petitioner could be liable for a fine if they don't leave within a certain time period. In any case, why would you use a system that draws massive government scrutiny to you in order to try to stay in a country illegally?

If separation is good enough for our soldiers it is fine for those that are asking to come here If you want to have them preemtively enter the US then the beneficiary should be required to put up a bond that would cover all the possible costs of deportation say 500K in cash per immigrant. That way a petitioner isn't put out by a fraudster and if the relationship goes bust before 2 years the US government can keep the money to cover costs.

Once implemented I think all beneficiaries either pay or stay out until approved no favors to VWP people also end adjusting from VWP

That's comparing apples to oranges - soldiers must be separated from their loved ones because of the nature of their job - petitioners and their loved ones must be separated only because some politician or bureaucrat decided that it should be that way.

Dealing with fraudulent application is an issue, but surely there are more effective and far less draconian ways of doing so. After all, other countries do this and don't have any real problems. If I was from Germany, for example, my wife could stay with me while her green card was approved. She couldn't work and I'd have to support her, but we could stay together. If Germany can manage it, surely we can as well.

[aaron2020 11,651]

I think there are ways to enforce people who must/should go back home to do so......IF, the government truly wants. plus it might create some new jobs.....people who are positioned just to deport/find people to deport..... both my siblings have been deported from the U.S at the age of 18 because their mother brought them to the U.S illegally, and kept it a secret. I just think we can find a middle path to make things easier on everyone.....thats what i am up for.....my baby boy, my fiances first child, will be born in april , and he will not be there, he might not even see his first child until he is one year old, how heart breaking?? I respect the system in every way, its just too heart breaking......to go through this. i cannot visit him.....he cannot visit me, he cannot touch or hold his own first child for perhaps the whole first year of his life.......

How is that enforce people who must go home workin out when ther are 12,000,000 illegals in the US?

Deportation is not easy or cost effective.

Furthermore, people in the US are afforded due process which means everyone who is caught will fight in immigration court. Where would you like the tax money to pay for increase deportation come from?

Why can't you go visit him?

Knowing that it will take a year for him to immigrate, why did you choose to get pregnant?

Sorry for your separation, but you simply planned poorly.

You can't blame the US for your fiancé not be able to hold his baby when you knew it would take a year for him to immigrate and you choose to get pregnant and for you choosin to return to the US rather than be with him.

[aaron2020 11,651]

This plan is so flawed.

Once you let people in, it's costly and extremely hard to get them out.

May I suggest something for those who want everyone in and then sort out the bad apples to kick out. Vopenbyour front door and invite them in as guests. After a month, call the cops to kick out the bad apples. Good luck when the guests falsely claim residency and get due process from the cops. With due process, the cops will do nothing. The home owner would need to go to court to evict.

It's far easier to keep the bad apples out at the US Embbassy with visa controls rather then toss them out after the melt into this massive country.

[lluvialluvita 2]

aaron2020 dont you think your being a bit too aggressive????? my posts are very very very neutral and on both sides, ive stated repeatedly how much i respect our system and our beautiful country and all the hard work being put into all of this. I am for anything that may better and ease up the process. JESUS! where the h*** does it state that i BLAMED THE U.S for me and my fiance and baby not being together. AND NO I DID NOT PLAN POORLY. if you know much about life, you would know, that not everything goes according to plan. i didn't plan to fall in love, i didn't plan to get pregnant, i certainly didn't plan at all to do visa papers for anyone in my life......i fell in love , i got pregnant and here i am doing visa work for someone i love , IF YOU PLAN ON DOING VISA FOR people ahead of time, than maybe your relationships are questionable.....no one plans on falling in love, you don't do calculations and come up with an equation on which country to marry from or what ethnicity to spend your life with. i cant believe how some people reply.....

By the way, i cannot see or even dream of seeing my baby daddy until he gets his visa because of three countries' WELL RESPECTED policies, Syria, which is a hellhole right now, Saudi Arabia, which has THE MOST DIFFICULT visit policies on earth, and finally our beautiful U.S which is trying to protect us all. so please when replying don't try to be so offensive, especially in such a sensitive and difficult subject......

[lluvialluvita 2]

how can you assume so much? how do you assume that i chose to come back to the U.S and not stay with him? how do you assume that we even met in a country we can stay in???? how do you assume that I knew it would take a year to immigrate, or that he would need to immigrate???? you know NOTHING about me, or my story. maybe if you asked before ASSUMING you might have some sympathy.......

[lluvialluvita 2]

how can you assume so much? how do you assume that i chose to come back to the U.S and not stay with him? how do you assume that we even met in a country we can stay in???? how do you assume that I knew it would take a year to immigrate, or that he would need to immigrate???? you know NOTHING about me, or my story. maybe if you asked before ASSUMING you might have some sympathy.......

EDITED:

how can you assume so much? how do you assume that i chose to come back to the U.S and not stay with him? how do you assume that we even met in a country we can stay in???? how do you assume that I knew it would take a year to immigrate, or that he would need to immigrate???? or do you think that when i meet a gentleman i look up immigration policies and say ,....hmmmm, well looks like i cant get near you because it would take too long to process your paperwork, or oh you are an easy person to do papers for , therefore i will marry you. how do you assume that i planned to get pregnant? or are there no more unplanned pregnancies in this world....? or is science so sophisticated now that we have no unexpected pregnancies and i am so out of touch with the worlds pace that i didnt know of the new discovery. people who ended up in this position, ended up unwillingly, and thats the hardship of it, you don't want to leave someone you fell in love with and chose to spend the rest of your life with because they carry a certain citizenship. so you try to do paperwork , and discover that its something very difficult. all we are saying, is that it would be a good idea, if there was a way, a policy, that would allow us to be with our loved ones while we are filing their paperwork, ESPECIALLY if children are involved.....so now my words get flipped and flopped around and rephrased and then posted as "blaming the U.S" for the separation of my family.......THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

[rade2rising 205]

current system has worked great for many years. no need to change it.

[Jamie & Izzy 98]

I`m very sorry about aaron2020 ignorance my Dear ,i know how you feel

My husband posted this Discussion ,we both use VJ.

I really wish you allot of luck with everything,i know how it goes in Saudi ...

Izzy

aaron2020 dont you think your being a bit too aggressive????? my posts are very very very neutral and on both sides, ive stated repeatedly how much i respect our system and our beautiful country and all the hard work being put into all of this. I am for anything that may better and ease up the process. JESUS! where the h*** does it state that i BLAMED THE U.S for me and my fiance and baby not being together. AND NO I DID NOT PLAN POORLY. if you know much about life, you would know, that not everything goes according to plan. i didn't plan to fall in love, i didn't plan to get pregnant, i certainly didn't plan at all to do visa papers for anyone in my life......i fell in love , i got pregnant and here i am doing visa work for someone i love , IF YOU PLAN ON DOING VISA FOR people ahead of time, than maybe your relationships are questionable.....no one plans on falling in love, you don't do calculations and come up with an equation on which country to marry from or what ethnicity to spend your life with. i cant believe how some people reply.....

By the way, i cannot see or even dream of seeing my baby daddy until he gets his visa because of three countries' WELL RESPECTED policies, Syria, which is a hellhole right now, Saudi Arabia, which has THE MOST DIFFICULT visit policies on earth, and finally our beautiful U.S which is trying to protect us all. so please when replying don't try to be so offensive, especially in such a sensitive and difficult subject......

[lluvialluvita 2]

I think if a petition were to get sent out, i think it should be made about/for those couples that have children together and are separated....i don't feel that this process is as difficult for those that dont have children involved. I think that the ones that are seeing their children go through hardship because of the process or see their separated partner aching for his/her child because of the process, feel more the need to change the process in a manner.

[lluvialluvita 2]

thanks so much Izzy....i feel bad for being so offended, but i cannot hold my emotions back on the issue.....I hope more people can sympathize...

thanks so much Izzy....i feel bad for being so offended, but i cannot hold my emotions back on the issue.....I hope more people can sympathize...