Obamacare raises health insurance premiums, especially for the young

[Dan from MI 23]

A couple of notes to your otherwise good point.

Car insurance is only required to operate your PRIVATELY owned car on PUBLICALLY owned roads. You are only required to have insurance to protect OTHERS from your actions and you are allowed the option of being "self insured" You are NOT required to purchase automobile insurance to protect yourself or your OWN car (unless required by a lender, but that is not a "law" it is a contractural agreement) So the comparison to buying medical insurance for yourself is valid. Neither are you required to buy car insurance for yourself

Good point... thanks for correcting and adding few things.

The other thing is that you CAN buy car insurance online through any number of nationwide providers...even from a lizard with an annoying British accent. It is astoundingly telling that the Federal giovernment could not do in 3 years what hundreds of companies already do!

That is...sell a variety of insurance products ONLINE to anyone! Can anyone expect a "good system" beyond a flawed website? You would have to be mentally retarded to believe that the same people that can so thoroughly f%k up a website...can provide reliable healthcare.

You noticed that too! Pretty scary that it is the US GOVERNMENT that can't do what companies can do for WAYYYYYY less cost and WAYYYYY less time and actually worked.

We never tried with medical insurance, what we have with care insurance. Instead we had a system whereby very few medical insurance providers could operate in any one state.

You also do not have car or home insurance tied to your employment. Why would you? Employment based medical insurance was begun in WW2 to avoid the government regulations capping pay increases. It began as a way to avoid another government regulation.

Much of your costs are related to "Defensive Medicine" yet the attorneys who run congress (a huge percentage of those idiots are attorneys) refuse to introduce medical tort reform. A recent minor surgery to remove a cataract, a 20 minute outpatient procedure) cost more in pre-op visits and tests than for the surgery itself. All to cover the Doctor (actually his malpractice insurance carrier) from possible lawsuits...not to mention the cost of the malpractice premiums themselves. The surgery would have been 60% less expensive if we could have tort reform. Every country with socialized medicine protects itself from parasitic attorneys to reduce the medicl costs it assumes. Why wouldn't the USA do the same to protect our doctors and reduce our costs?

EXACTLY!! One of my Family friend was one of the best ortho surgeron in the state and he quit before his retirement age because he was saying that with his high risk type of job that the malpractice insurance was taking more and more of his Money away. If I remembered correctly he said it was approching 400,000 a year for insurances. It sucked that he quit before he can train new doctors and all that skill is gone. I know of three other doctors that quit before retirement age because of the costs.

Obamacare does nothing to address this.

we never tried what we should have...FIRST

1. Detach healthcare from employment. Return the premium portion you pay. Let you shop for your own insurance with this. The employer could (at their choice) continue to subsidize YOU as a benefit of employment. Some companies had already doen this with what they called a "cafeteria" plan. Each employee gets a benefit "allowance" and can apply it to any number of benefits...medical care, vacation, etc. A young person may opt for a cheap catastrophic medical plan and 8 extra vacation days, for example.

2. Remove regulations in interstate insurance sales and allow medical insurance providers to compete just as car and home insurance providers do. When we see ads for health insurance on TV with a talking lizard, we have arrived!

3. Limit lawsuits to strict liability and negligence. Sick people die sometimes...we ALL die sometime. It is not necessarily anyone's "fault". It sucks that I have diabetes, for example, and might lose a leg or my eyesight (already had a heart attack) but that was the hand I was dealt. It is not anyone's "fault"E

Nothing in Obamacare addresses profits and if it works as planned (it won't...it can't) the insurance companies and medical providers are still going to make huge profits...which means there was never any possibility it could reduce your insurance costs. Indeed we see it is not.

Do not feel bad for the self employed. Employer based medical plans will be canceled next year, they already had the 1 year extension just granted to the self employed. Your price shock is coming this time next year.

Sorry no shock here, I already expected it to go up.

I agree with the last 3 things you mentioned that we should have tried first. I mentioned that idea long ago but nobody listened. They only heard the word "free" and tuned out the rest and now they are getting a rude awaken.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Nationalise healthcare, add supplemental insurance. Works in the rest of the developed world. Strangely the USA can't seem to work that out. Too many vested interests in the status quo.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Nationalise healthcare, add supplemental insurance. Works in the rest of the developed world. Strangely the USA can't seem to work that out. Too many vested interests in the status quo.

You're right. Obamacare sucks.

The only ones benefitting from Obamacare are the isnurance companies which were supposedly the "problem".

If a few more people who actually wanted HEALTHcare would speak up, we could trash Obamacare and do something that works.

Iwoul dlike to see a FREE market solution tried nationwide, FIRST.

I agree with the last 3 things you mentioned that we should have tried first. I mentioned that idea long ago but nobody listened. They only heard the word "free" and tuned out the rest and now they are getting a rude awaken.

Healthcare will never be, and is not anywhere..."free"

what we need to try first is "free market"

[Pooky 3,840]

Nationalise healthcare, add supplemental insurance. Works in the rest of the developed world. Strangely the USA can't seem to work that out. Too many vested interests in the status quo.

This Administration had an opportunity to accomplish that, but the Democrats in Congress choked.

Then, to get to the current pile of poo, they got greedy.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The free market is why you have a complicated health system. That politicians have messed about with it hasn't changed that.

[CarlosAndSveta 808]

You only collect tax on profits. Unless of course we had the FAIR TAX. I bet you don't want that. Just a hunch.

Your hunch is wrong. I don't even think about the Fair Tax since I know that it will never be implemented in the U.S. during my lifetime.

FYI nurses and other medical staff do not make a "profit" and are paid in every system of care. They are receiving a wage in return for hours worked. That is not a "profit". If it were, it would be taxed at a lower rate (in the USA).

Nurses in Canada, for example, are paid... and use their cash to come to the USA to buy clothes tax free. Thereby using their wages to provide a profit for US merchants. We like it.

when intellectually limited to one line responses, it is difficult to make any sense.

Please show me where in the Internal Revenue Code it states that business profits are taxed at a lower income tax rate than wages.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Your hunch is wrong. I don't even think about the Fair Tax since I know that it will never be implemented in the U.S. during my lifetime.

Please show me where in the Internal Revenue Code it states that business profits are taxed at a lower income tax rate than wages.

No

If you claim I am wrong, then YOU prove it. I am not playing your nonsense games.

The tax rate for many types of investments and profits are lower than wage rates AND neither they, nor business profit are subject to FICA and Medicaid/Medicare AT ALL. That's nearly a 15% lower rate for a self employed person in itself. A person making their income from PROFIT pays a lower rate than people making their income from wages. Period. This is why the Democrats said "Warren Buffet's secretary pays a higher tax rate than Warren Buffet" Its true.

If you disagree, prove me wrong. I am not doing your homework for you.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Edited December 7, 2013 by Gary and Alla

[CarlosAndSveta 808]

No

If you claim I am wrong, then YOU prove it. I am not playing your nonsense games.

The tax rate for many types of investments and profits are lower than wage rates AND neither they, nor business profit are subject to FICA and Medicaid/Medicare AT ALL. That's nearly a 15% lower rate for a self employed person in itself. A person making their income from PROFIT pays a lower rate than people making their income from wages. Period. This is why the Democrats said "Warren Buffet's secretary pays a higher tax rate than Warren Buffet" Its true.

If you disagree, prove me wrong. I am not doing your homework for you.

You are wrong. You made the claim you prove it. FiCA and Medicare are not income taxes. They are employment taxes. You need to get your nomenclature correct if you don't like being called out about it. Business profits for individuals are taxed at the same income tax rate as wages paid to an individual.

[BatmanUSA 105]

The answer is simple.

Because it is INSURANCE, it is not a tax that pays for all medical care as they have in Russia (and everyone avoids the tax by working "under the table") ask her what percebtage of her income was actually reported. Ask her why. How many people do you know in Russia that work ONE job or have ALL their income paid in check form? Most get half, or more, of their salary in cash. You didn't know this? why do you think Canadians flood into Vermont every weeked? 6% sales tax vs. 15% sales tax. We have no sales tax on clothes and shoes and food and medicine. They buy craploads of clothes, take them out of the packaging and stuff the packaging in the trash cans at the mall, (by Staurday afternoon they are overflowing) put them in their suitcase. They go out for a nice dinner, about 1/3 less expensive than in Montreal, stiff the waitress for a tip and drive home "Did you buy anything in the USA?" Non! Ne pas moi! They line up at the border gas stations to buy gas for $3.40 per gallon on their way out. Why? Because they have "free" health care. On Monday they are back in Burlington to get their MRIs, CAT scans, cataract surgery, eye laser surgery, or even heart bypass surgery. Our hospital employs 7.277 people (exact number as of December 1) or about 17% of the local population, in order to provide not only care for 42,000 local residents...but the percentage of 3 million nearby Canadians that can afford it. The hospital gives a 50% discount for cash customers. Otherwise we would have a 12 bed hospital and have to go to Boston for cataract surgery. I Canadians!

Is the answer getting easier for you?

Insurance, what you pay for, is not designed to pay everything and never was. In this country it is YOUR responsibility to pay for ALL of your medical expenses. The government (even under Obamacare) is not repsonsible for ANY of it and (up until now) collected no tax for this. (medicaid and medicare excepted)

So...the REASON is that in this country YOU pay ALL your expenses. Because that can be very expensive and posibly exceed what it is possible for you to pay, you have CHOSEN (heretofore it was a choice) to purchase health insurance. Like your auto and home insurance, you health insurance does not pay for "routine" maintenance, or at least not all of it. You pay auto insuirance and still pay for oil changes, gasoline, tires, brakes, windshield wipers...yada, yada. Heck, I replaced a tialight bulb yesterday and had to pay for ALL of it, in addition to my monthli auto insurance! Can you even imagine! The pirce of the taillight bulb was regulated by the fact that I can buy it ANYWHERE and compare prices, or even order it online and have it delivered to my house. I can choose to change it myself or call around and ask what people will charge me to change my tailight bulb for me.

I suggested we do the same for medical care.

Your wife (and you) are confusing a tax for a government provided service with insurance to help you pay for a personal responsibility.

FYI nurses and other medical staff do not make a "profit" and are paid in every system of care. They are receiving a wage in return for hours worked. That is not a "profit". If it were, it would be taxed at a lower rate (in the USA).

Nurses in Canada, for example, are paid... and use their cash to come to the USA to buy clothes tax free. Thereby using their wages to provide a profit for US merchants. We like it.

when intellectually limited to one line responses, it is difficult to make any sense.

people also work under the table in America to avoid taxes.

yes I am aware that most people in FSU work 2 jobs and prefer to be paid in cash. Salaries are very much lower there.

I am aware that Canadians and European visitors shop and stuff their suitcases because the sales tax is much lower here.

Did you know that rather than pay for cardiac surgery in the US, the Canadian health Service will pay over 5K for a medical flight to bring a sick Canadian home for the surgery because even with the cost of the medical flight, the surgery is still cheaper in Canada than the US.

I think you are comparing the wealthy Canadians who can afford to pay 100% for US medical care against the low/middle class Americans who can not afford those procedures... Is this a fair comparison.?

and I agree, it is a choice to purchase health insurance, but considering the US costs, how much of a choice is it.?

Sorry Gary, but the answer is not getting easier for me..

How can you compare auto insurance to health insurance; maintenance and expenses? Can you make your own medication? can you call a friend to help you do a coronary artery bypass on yourself in your garage on a Saturday afternoon.? If your child falls and you think he broke his leg, do you or a friend have an x-ray machine in your garage? can you go to the pharmacy to buy all the supplies to cast his leg? can you buy your own x-ray machine?, I know you can buy all the tools and parts to fix your car.... so I do not think this is a fair comparison..

As a registered Nurse, I earn a decent salary to support my family.. In Russia, a nurses salary would barely, if, pay for rent, so a second job would be necessary.

One other thing I have noticed, even with the 17% VAT in Russia, the cost for food is not 17% higher there than here.. but I do not know if the Russian government subsides those costs, similar to what the US government does here with milk prices...

[lostinblue 1,989]

people also work under the table in America to avoid taxes.

yes I am aware that most people in FSU work 2 jobs and prefer to be paid in cash. Salaries are very much lower there.

I am aware that Canadians and European visitors shop and stuff their suitcases because the sales tax is much lower here.

Did you know that rather than pay for cardiac surgery in the US, the Canadian health Service will pay over 5K for a medical flight to bring a sick Canadian home for the surgery because even with the cost of the medical flight, the surgery is still cheaper in Canada than the US.

I think you are comparing the wealthy Canadians who can afford to pay 100% for US medical care against the low/middle class Americans who can not afford those procedures... Is this a fair comparison.?

and I agree, it is a choice to purchase health insurance, but considering the US costs, how much of a choice is it.?

Sorry Gary, but the answer is not getting easier for me..

How can you compare auto insurance to health insurance; maintenance and expenses? Can you make your own medication? can you call a friend to help you do a coronary artery bypass on yourself in your garage on a Saturday afternoon.? If your child falls and you think he broke his leg, do you or a friend have an x-ray machine in your garage? can you go to the pharmacy to buy all the supplies to cast his leg? can you buy your own x-ray machine?, I know you can buy all the tools and parts to fix your car.... so I do not think this is a fair comparison..

As a registered Nurse, I earn a decent salary to support my family.. In Russia, a nurses salary would barely, if, pay for rent, so a second job would be necessary.

One other thing I have noticed, even with the 17% VAT in Russia, the cost for food is not 17% higher there than here.. but I do not know if the Russian government subsides those costs, similar to what the US government does here with milk prices...

So as a nurse how many tests are preformed here in the USA. On a person in a hospital that are done only for the sole reason to protect a doctor in case they are sued by a lawyer a few years down the line.?

[BatmanUSA 105]

So as a nurse how many tests are preformed here in the USA. On a person in a hospital that are done only for the sole reason to protect a doctor in case they are sued by a lawyer a few years down the line.?

probably half....

[lostinblue 1,989]

probably half....

Then does this alone drive the cost of health care to the level it is. How can anyone compare what is in place here in this country with Europe or even Canada. Are the John Edwards sitting like vultures waiting. This was never addressed when obama care was written Tort reform. How much does a MRI or cat scan cost, 50% waste in all these services.....Nurses time Doctors time ,,,, People keeping the records and DR'S lawstaff. and insurance for doctors ...... The main drivers of cost,,,50%,,,,,,,Thousands of Dollars Tens of thousands spent ....wasted and hours worth of medical records kept just to protect yourself from a lawsuit.

[BatmanUSA 105]

Then does this alone drive the cost of health care to the level it is. How can anyone compare what is in place here in this country with Europe or even Canada. Are the John Edwards sitting like vultures waiting. This was never addressed when obama care was written Tort reform. How much does a MRI or cat scan cost, 50% waste in all these services.....Nurses time Doctors time ,,,, People keeping the records and DR'S lawstaff. and insurance for doctors ...... The main drivers of cost,,,50%,,,,,,,Thousands of Dollars Tens of thousands spent ....wasted and hours worth of medical records kept just to protect yourself from a lawsuit.

I am not disagreeing with your point.

But this one part does not alone drive up the cost of healthcare.

Also, it is subjective as to what is an unnecessary test...

If you have pain in a bone or joint, you can not be certain what the exact problem is without an xray, and if the xray is inconclusive then you have a CT or MRI...

People go the ER and complain of abdominal pain... that is a non-specific complaint so a CT is ordered....

Some doctors have a God complex, some lawyers will dig thru charts to find something that could be argued as negligence.. Throughout this whole process, you have a sick person demanding to know exactly what is wrong. People do not want to, "wait and see"... they could have abdominal pain from something as simple as gas, or maybe they are having pain and cramps because they are lactose intolerant and they do not know it. and lactose intolerance will not show up on an xray, or CT or any of the routine blood tests... But there is the doctor with a person right in front of them demanding to know immediately what is wrong with them.... and if that person does not get an acceptable answer at that time, they can run to a lawyer... so to just lay a blanket and blame the doctors or blame the lawyers is not entirely accurate or fair. There are overly demanding people seeking expensive medical advice for simple problems...

But yes, defensive medicine is a fact.. so do something to change the laws...

I assure you that doctors and nurses are very much not happy to practice defensive medicine.

[CarlosAndSveta 808]

No

If you claim I am wrong, then YOU prove it. I am not playing your nonsense games.

The tax rate for many types of investments and profits are lower than wage rates AND neither they, nor business profit are subject to FICA and Medicaid/Medicare AT ALL. That's nearly a 15% lower rate for a self employed person in itself. A person making their income from PROFIT pays a lower rate than people making their income from wages. Period. This is why the Democrats said "Warren Buffet's secretary pays a higher tax rate than Warren Buffet" Its true.

If you disagree, prove me wrong. I am not doing your homework for you.

To show how you are wrong I have come up with an example similar to your reference to Warren Buffet and his secretary. In my example you have two friends who are electricians. One of them works for an electrical contractor and is treated as an employee. The other friend has his own business that he treats as a sole-proprietorship for tax purposes. To keep things simple we will assume that they both are single, have no dependents, do not itemize deductions, and the earnings from their jobs is their only source of income. Here is their tax return data for Form 1040 for 2012 assuming they both made $70,000.

Employee Self-Employed

Income

Line 7 – Wages $70,000 $0

Line 12 – Business Income / Profit 0 70,000

Line 22 – Total Income 70,000 70,000

Adjusted Gross Income

Line 27 – Self-employment tax deduction 0 4,945

Line 37 – Adjusted Gross Income 70,000 65,055

Tax and Credits

Line 40 – Standard Deduction 5,950 5,950

Line 42 – Exemptions 3,800 3,800

Line 43 – Taxable Income 60,250 55,305

Line 44 – Tax 11,086 9,861

Other Taxes

Line 56 – Self-Employment Tax 0 8,598

Line 61 – Total Tax 11,086 18,459

FICA 4,130 0

Medicare 1,015 0

Total Federal Taxes 16,231 18,459